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Post by Admin on Mar 12, 2008 22:29:41 GMT -5
This thread is also under control of the referee formerly known as l33t.
Please respect its purpose, for serious comments on the substance of the first debate.
The Popcorn etc. thread is for general chat.
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Post by Rob O on Mar 13, 2008 8:48:59 GMT -5
Well, I think the flying monkeys are doing marvellously. This is a great debate.
Both participants are clearly putting in a large commitment of time, thought and energy. I appreciate and respect that immensely.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 13, 2008 9:26:45 GMT -5
Howdy, I really enjoy reading the debate between GIT and Zorro. It is clear that they both feel deeply about what they are debating. I especially like when they use scripture to support their points, rather then just making general statements about how they feel on a subject. It's hard to refute scripture, and it allows the reader to go and read for themselves. I really liked the way Zorro explained: Exegesis - critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, esp. of the Bible.
Eisegesis - an interpretation, esp. of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.
Narrative- a story or account of events, experiences, or the like
Normative-pertaining to giving directives or rulesI love it when people that use 'big words' (those not used in everyday conversation) then explain what they mean to us unlearned folks. Thanks for that Z-man. Of course I also really appreciated the: Except for the folks that feel the NIV rightly interpreted the verse to say they were “reclined”. I wasn’t able to find out if this meant reclining on the floor or on La-Z-Boys. I was picturing in my mind a La-Z-Boy from those days. A wooden frame covered in camels hair that would flip back.... Ha! YOU DA MAN ZORRO! It is so good that what Jason has been wanting for so long is finally happening in regards to a true debate without the interference of anyone else in the thread. It really allows for some serious discussion on basic belief issues. I look forward to more debates along these lines. Would be nice to maybe get some workers reading here to debate some of these issues in a manner that they wouldn't get beat up on for what they had to say. Scott
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Post by the reality on Mar 13, 2008 10:33:41 GMT -5
Do we get to assign speaker points, or penalize those who resort to strawman tactics, such as in the case of GIT?
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Post by Rob O on Mar 13, 2008 10:37:01 GMT -5
Do we get to assign speaker points, or penalize those who resort to strawman tactics, such as in the case of GIT? You can if you like. This thread is for discussion: good, bad or otherwise. I'm going to leave my comments until it's over.
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Post by ranman77007 on Mar 13, 2008 20:43:04 GMT -5
i thought Zorro's post was confusing. i am sorry, but he really didn't say anything. i learned a lot from GiT's, and how things fit back then as they do now, with an actual people that you can look at and be sure of, as in the bible days.
i bet if Zorro had something true to do a study and debate on, he would knock down walls.
but trying to defend his stance cannot be proved biblically, as we know there was only one true church in the bible, and it stands to reason that there is only one now, and so you have to use examples from the bible to match the people of your church to the church of that day. or in Zorro's case, prove that this particular church made up of the friends and workers is not that church.
how can one do this? GiT has provided us with strong evidence, a people that we can look on and see with our own eyes, and touch them.... they all worship the same, and they have a ministry very similar to the kinds of ministers that Jesus sent.
GiT has the bible, and he has evidence of a new testament church according to Scripture.
Zorro has the bible.
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Post by ranman77007 on Mar 13, 2008 21:05:48 GMT -5
Do we get to assign speaker points, or penalize those who resort to strawman tactics, such as in the case of GIT? you are just mad because GiT can say anything and it be true. He is Son of God. you really should watch what you say to this man, or about him. i am just telling you as a friend. you don't want to underestimate GiT's camouflage tactic... its like a snake in the grass... the Holy Ghost may be where you can't even see it... i wouldn't be a stompin and a blaspheming him.... not just yet. there are greater wonders to behold... let the debate continue !!
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Post by jh62 on Mar 13, 2008 21:30:17 GMT -5
Ranman, do you truly believe GIT is the "Son of God"? It sounds as though you believe he's incapable of a lie or not having a complete understanding? Maybe you didn't mean GIT is the Son of God, but a son of God as in the way that we all refer to God as our Father?
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Post by ranman77007 on Mar 13, 2008 21:59:37 GMT -5
Ranman, do you truly believe GIT is the "Son of God"? It sounds as though you believe he's incapable of a lie or not having a complete understanding? Maybe you didn't mean GIT is the Son of God, but a son of God as in the way that we all refer to God as our Father? yes. it was a typo. i meant to say " a Son of God", as in the verse "gave them power to become sons of God"... i will fix it. but yes, i have enough faith to believe that God still gives authority to His people, and that if the Spirit is present, then it backs up the words of it own. kinda like magic, except its power, not magic. God shows favor to His own...
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Mar 14, 2008 16:39:50 GMT -5
I am enjoying the debate as well, but I confess a little disappointment.
Put bluntly, Zorro, who holds himself up as an example, is failing to prove to me that he is indeed saved and going to heaven; and GIT is failing to prove that Zorro or any other believer is going to hell for straying from the Truth. I realize that neither of these extremes is truly relevant to the topic, but this is what the customers are paying for.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Mar 14, 2008 17:00:26 GMT -5
Luckily, the price is right. I think they're doing great. M.
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Post by the reality on Mar 14, 2008 17:07:08 GMT -5
I am enjoying the debate as well, but I confess a little disappointment. Put bluntly, Zorro, who holds himself up as an example, is failing to prove to me that he is indeed saved and going to heaven; Two questions: A) What would it take for Zorro to prove it to you? B) Why must Zorro prove it to you, or anyone?
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Post by ranman77007 on Mar 14, 2008 19:32:02 GMT -5
when i was little my older brother and his friends laughed and me and said i wasn't a boy. i said i was too. they said prove it, so i whipped it out. for at least five years after that, any time i was gonna tell my dad something bad that my brother had done, he threatened to tell dad that i "proved it". anywayzz, thats all...
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Post by Sylvestra on Mar 17, 2008 12:43:39 GMT -5
My husband and I are also enjoying this debate.
I want to touch just on the "straw man" issue. I am really uninterested in the "correct debating form", but in the content of the idea presented. When GiT brought up what Zorro would likely say about numbers, I simply removed "Zorro" from my mind and replaced it with "some folks say" (which I have heard them argue in this vane before). GiT is correct in the premise, but in my mind, incorrect with assigning it to Zorro. GiT is also correct in his rebuttal in this particular argument.....which I believe Zorro might likely agree with! Numbers is a ridiculous argument to prove correctness or righteousness!
Thank you both for your time and orderly thoughts in your positions! I know it is a great investment that neither of you have to make. You both have many other profitable things you could be doing! So again, thank you deeply.
Best, in His love, Edy
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Post by the reality on Mar 17, 2008 14:10:05 GMT -5
It would appear that GIT has conceded this debate.
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Post by Hmmmmmm on Mar 18, 2008 14:50:03 GMT -5
I hope GiT would not give up... there really is a lot to be said still for his side. Z'man hasn't convinced me to change my position or even question my position yet. Give it another try guys.
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Post by the reality on Mar 19, 2008 1:39:39 GMT -5
I hope GiT would not give up... there really is a lot to be said still for his side. No argument there. He certainly did say a lot.
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Post by calmrainydaze on Mar 19, 2008 18:33:52 GMT -5
I hope GiT would not give up... there really is a lot to be said still for his side. No argument there. He certainly did say a lot. your comments are so nice to hear. but you are not on ignore... (or as you may have heard a long, long time ago in a Gospel meeting far, far away: "the door is open now")
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Post by eyedeetentee on Mar 20, 2008 21:32:10 GMT -5
Zorro is doing a fine job and is quite understandable. He could easily write a book because his writing builds to a point. His final paragraph, to date, leaves me impatiently waiting for the next installment.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 21, 2008 10:03:32 GMT -5
Wow!! I sure enjoyed reading all of what you posted Z-man! I also enjoyed reading Jason's comments, and wish he would have been able to continue the debate with you. Thanks for all the time you put into this. I really appreciated it!! Scott
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Post by swede on Mar 21, 2008 11:50:44 GMT -5
Excellent work, Zorro. If GiT doesn't have it in him to respond, I hope he at least reads and tries to learn from your posts.
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Shane
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by Shane on Mar 21, 2008 13:13:11 GMT -5
Zorro, Great posts and great job overall. You had a lot of very helpful things to say. Thanks to both you and GiT for taking this on.
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Post by spiderman on Mar 25, 2008 12:44:43 GMT -5
I just finished skimming along with the debate. It's really amazing. I don't understand half the words and phrases on either side and don't have the time to look everything up in the dictionary. My hat is off to both of you. For those of you who thought that an internet debate was going to make a difference for you, I feel badly. And quite possibly there are some who we'll never hear from that have been touched one way or the other. How could either of these men PROVE anything to anyone with words, even THAT many words. Although if there is anyone, friend or worker reading Zorro's posts, they might give them pause, especially if you know the man like I do. But if you're daily drinking the professsing kool-aid along with many of your family members to reassure you that your salvation lies in the fellowship, then you will not be swayed, "faithful to the end" and all that stuff! I'll just say to those what I have said before. Be carefull that you don't find yourself sitting in the seats of the Pharisees. Just for the record, in my opinion, I can't find the friends or workers of today anywhere in the New Testament. Sadly I can't find most denominations or churches there either. But I've already admitted to being less than scholarly so who would care what I think anyway!?! ;D
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Post by Gene on Mar 25, 2008 12:52:00 GMT -5
I care, Spidey!
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Post by spiderman on Mar 25, 2008 14:25:31 GMT -5
ahh shucks
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Post by spiderman on Mar 25, 2008 15:05:33 GMT -5
I am enjoying the debate as well, but I confess a little disappointment. Put bluntly, Zorro, who holds himself up as an example, is failing to prove to me that he is indeed saved and going to heaven; and GIT is failing to prove that Zorro or any other believer is going to hell for straying from the Truth. I realize that neither of these extremes is truly relevant to the topic, but this is what the customers are paying for. Mr. Dietcoke, Please prove to us that you or anyone else are saved. Prove to us that what William Irvine began as an experiment is the one true way of Jesus. Put bluntly you can't do either. Nor can I. So why the disappointment?
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Post by Zorro on Mar 25, 2008 22:21:18 GMT -5
I'm going to take a leave from the board soon, but I'd like to make a few points......
First, I'd like to thank everyone who encouraged me during the debate, your posts and PMs mean more than you'd know. This has been a fairly intense experience for me and I truly appreciate your support.
Sylvestra, I'm sorry to have bored you, and any others, by pointing out GiT's use of logical fallacies. Even though you may not have been interested, the debaters needed to be. It was kind of like self-refereeing a pick-up basketball game with no officials. You have to call your own fouls. Sorry about that.
Diet Coke. I can't really find the words to express my feelings about your comments. But I will say this regarding your apparent need for "proof". Was it incumbent to prove myself a Christian? I suppose one could demand proof to completely, unequivocally refute the debate resolution. But it seems Jesus didn’t really work that way, did he? Think of all the detractors demanding that he prove himself – what did he do to convince them? Nothing. But was he able to prove himself to believers? Certainly. The only one who knows if I’m a Christian or not is God himself. And that is the entire point. God doesn’t ask me to go into the world each day to “prove” I’m a Christian, and I’m not even going to attempt such a foolish thing here. What God asks of his people is to allow him to glorify himself through their lives – by this will all men know that you are my disciples by the love you show one to another. To quote Forrest Gump...."that's all I have to say about that".
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Post by Sylvestra on Mar 26, 2008 10:24:07 GMT -5
Zorro said "Sylvestra, I'm sorry to have bored you, and any others, by pointing out GiT's use of logical fallacies. Even though you may not have been interested, the debaters needed to be. It was kind of like self-refereeing a pick-up basketball game with no officials. You have to call your own fouls. Sorry about that." Oh, please don't be sorry! I wasn't bored in any way by your response to GiT's "logical fallacies". The only way I could get his point in this respect was to remove the impropriety from my mind to dwell only on the argument. Otherwise, anger and annoyance were in the forefront and not the argument presented. Thank you both again for your extreme time and energy commitment to this project! I'm sorry to hear that you will be gone. Please return soon! In Him, Edy
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