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Post by gloryintruth on Feb 28, 2008 2:13:33 GMT -5
My position is that it is both invisible, yet visible. Universal and local.
My position is that the Church of God is the fellowship of believers after the biblical order. Deviation from biblical practice places one outside of the Church of God.
The Church is from the foundation of the world, to its ending. It is the physical, tangible, visible reality of the invisible workings of the Holy Spirit. It consists of believers who are alive, and those who are "the righteous dead" - though not dead, but alive, eternally, in Christ awaiting the resurrection at the Last Day.
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Rob O
Junior Member
"I am the bearer of the sacred flame."
Posts: 158
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Post by Rob O on Feb 28, 2008 3:36:20 GMT -5
There you go....I can see a debate between Git and Zorro, assuming they want to.
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Post by dddddddddddddddd on Feb 28, 2008 3:51:59 GMT -5
My position is that the Church of God is the fellowship of believers after the biblical order. Deviation from biblical practice places one outside of the Church of God. Carm.org defines "church" as follows - The word is used in two senses: the visible and the invisible church. The visible church consists of all the people that claim to be Christians and go to church. The invisible church is the actual body of Christians; those who are truly saved.
The true church of God is not an organization on earth consisting of people and buildings, but is really a supernatural entity comprised of those who are saved by Jesus. It spans the entire time of man's existence on earth as well as all people who are called into it. We become members of the church (body of Christ) by faith (Acts 2:41). We are edified by the Word (Eph. 4:15-16), disciplined by God (Matt. 18:15-17), unified in Christ (Gal. 3:28), and sanctified by the Spirit (Eph. 5:26-27).
Notice how jason focuses on not following form and methods. The obvious sign of a mind blinded by 2x2ism.
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Post by gloryintruth on Feb 28, 2008 4:25:28 GMT -5
Notice how jason focuses on not following form and methods. The obvious sign of a mind blinded by 2x2ism.
No, I focuses on following the Bible. When one's "christian" practices are not consistent with the biblical example, then one cannot justifiably claim to be a Christian - thus my mind must be blinded by sola scriptura.
"Form and method" was not so despised by the Apostles, all of whom taught how we should comport ourselves in worship.
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Post by InChrist on Feb 28, 2008 5:36:34 GMT -5
I would respectfully like to ask Jason, does the same apply to the doctrine of the Gospel? Does failure to believe and trust in God's Gospel message, the truth about Jesus also place one outside the church/body of Christ?
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Post by Zorro on Feb 28, 2008 8:58:33 GMT -5
My position is that the Church of God is the fellowship of believers after the biblical order
GiT, Surely you would understand that my position is wholly based on scripture also. Obviously, your position rests on your interpretation of "biblical order". What I want to know beforehand is if you claim the F&Ws are the only true "believers after the biblical order". I'm not interested in debating an ambiguous position.
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Post by jh62 on Feb 28, 2008 9:30:19 GMT -5
I'm so anxious for a debate! Like freespirit mentioned, it will be nice to read a civil thread.
I'd also like to nominate l33t as a debator. I really liked the way he/she presented facts in another thread on the worship of early Christians.
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Rob O
Junior Member
"I am the bearer of the sacred flame."
Posts: 158
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Post by Rob O on Feb 28, 2008 9:45:53 GMT -5
Thanks for your vote of confidence jh62 but I doubt I have the time to participate in a formal debate. I would be happy to do something non-time-consuming of an administrative nature though such as setting up the threads, editing out personal attacks ;D (which sadly I'm not above so I can spot them easily), and ensuring the debaters followed the rules.
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Post by jh62 on Feb 28, 2008 9:56:17 GMT -5
I can sure understand about not having the time to devote! I think it would be a shame to not have you in there though.
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Post by Zorro on Feb 28, 2008 10:16:19 GMT -5
The Church is from the foundation of the world, to its ending. It is the physical, tangible, visible reality of the invisible workings of the Holy Spirit. It consists of believers who are alive, and those who are "the righteous dead" - though not dead, but alive, eternally, in Christ awaiting the resurrection at the Last Day.
I agree with this, so there is no debatable issue here. We both agree that the church is the body of believers. It appears that GiT adds this qualifier - the church is the fellowship of believers after the biblical order. Deviation from biblical practice places one outside of the Church of God. If this means that believers are identified by membership in the F&Ws fellowship, we have our debatable issue. Since I assume that GiT would not claim that all members of his fellowship are by default true believers, it would seem that our debate resolution can be very simply framed like this:
That true believers can be identified solely within the membership of the F&Ws fellowship.
This would be the affirmative position defended by GiT, which I would refute.
The affirmative position goes first.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Feb 28, 2008 10:56:25 GMT -5
Notice how jason focuses on not following form and methods. The obvious sign of a mind blinded by 2x2ism.No, I focuses on following the Bible. When one's "christian" practices are not consistent with the biblical example, then one cannot justifiably claim to be a Christian - thus my mind must be blinded by sola scriptura. "Form and method" was not so despised by the Apostles, all of whom taught how we should comport ourselves in worship. this is called "living in, and by, your works."
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Post by Foghorn on Feb 28, 2008 11:04:00 GMT -5
Calling Apples!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Admin on Feb 28, 2008 18:04:31 GMT -5
I've had another idea. We could set up the debating board and leave it open for anybody to post a statement and invite either a specific person or anyone in general to debate it with them. If the challenge isn't accepted, we simply note it and move on. If it is, we conduct the debate here according to the rules (which include copious quantities of freespirit's scones with lashings of jam and cream). Thank you Zorro for distilling the essence of the issue for you and Jason to debate. Zorro has now invited Jason to debate the issue as stated here: We both agree that the church is the body of believers. It appears that GiT adds this qualifier - the church is the fellowship of believers after the biblical order. Deviation from biblical practice places one outside of the Church of God. If this means that believers are identified by membership in the F&Ws fellowship, we have our debatable issue. Since I assume that GiT would not claim that all members of his fellowship are by default true believers, it would seem that our debate resolution can be very simply framed like this: That true believers can be identified solely within the membership of the F&Ws fellowship. This would be the affirmative position defended by GiT, which I would refute. The affirmative position goes first. Is the challenge accepted? If so I will set up the thread and l33t can assist as referee. Others might like to place a challenge for debate also. ... and am very much looking forward to hearing polite, lively and respectful debate and sharing of viewpoints minus the attacks on a person's character or vocabulary. *Holding a tray* freespirit freespirit, unlike some suggestions posted elsewhere, if you have the skills to make us scones you definitely aren't expected to pass the tray around also. That is something Scott and I can do (easier to sneak another scone!)
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 28, 2008 21:12:31 GMT -5
Sounds like a job I wold be good at!!!! Better make sure to have lots of them there goodies!!!! Scott
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Post by freespirit on Feb 28, 2008 21:24:31 GMT -5
freespirit, unlike some suggestions posted elsewhere, if you have the skills to make us scones you definitely aren't expected to pass the tray around also. That is something Scott and I can do (easier to sneak another scone!) Thank you. That is very kind. I would like to pour the tea though. Perhaps someone can grab the pot of coffee and pass out the cups and saucers. I'm looking very forward to intense and civil debate. freespirit
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Post by degem on Feb 28, 2008 21:39:36 GMT -5
Well, I will also volunteer to help in passing the trays around. That's just in case 'ahem' someone needs to be monitored so the scones aren't all devoured . I am not good at pouring out coffee -it would end up in someone's lap.
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Post by gloryintruth on Feb 29, 2008 3:18:36 GMT -5
That true believers can be identified solely within the membership of the F&Ws fellowship.
This is a premise which I would agree to defend. As I have a long weekend, I will have the time sufficient to the task of writing an affirmative post.
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Post by Admin on Feb 29, 2008 7:35:12 GMT -5
That true believers can be identified solely within the membership of the F&Ws fellowship. This is a premise which I would agree to defend. As I have a long weekend, I will have the time sufficient to the task of writing an affirmative post. Thanks Jason and Zorro. I will set up the board for the debate, along with a thread for any referee's comments ( I33t I think you offered to be chief ref?). Also a thread for the popcorn, tea and scones audience to chatter away while the giants debate. We have all agreed that debates are to be conducted respectfully and that it is not about winning or losing but an opportunity to see how different people see important issues from different perspectives. Also, I would like to reiterate that I LOVE this suggestion of Gene's: ... and am very much looking forward to hearing polite, lively and respectful debate and sharing of viewpoints minus the attacks on a person's character or vocabulary.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 29, 2008 8:57:13 GMT -5
Howdy Gem... Well, I will also volunteer to help in passing the trays around. That's
just in case 'ahem' someone needs to be monitored so the scones
aren't all devoured . I am not good at pouring out coffee -it would
end up in someone's lap. I think I know who the 'ahem' was directed at. The last time I had coffee spilled in my lap was yesterday morning. Luckily Raleigh my fat cat was there to absorb a good portion of it. It was done by Billy my Springer Spaniel, who was jockeying for position to get between Ryder the Golden Retriever and me to be in the best 'get a scratching' spot. This is a regular morning routine.... Normally I am a little better with the waving of the coffee cup during the action.... I am guessing that Raleigh got a bit wired cleaning the caffeine off his fur... Scott
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Post by degem on Feb 29, 2008 10:09:44 GMT -5
LOL the way you described yesterday morning!. I could also bring homemade strawberry jelly and apple butter...Gem
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Post by thinnering on Mar 11, 2008 20:03:21 GMT -5
some of us are on diets could trays of vegetables be passed with the scones?
green tea?
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Post by freespirit on Mar 13, 2008 0:07:15 GMT -5
some of us are on diets could trays of vegetables be passed with the scones? green tea? I can definitely make green tea. Can have the kitchen staff make up a tray of veggies too. freespirit
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Post by degem on Mar 13, 2008 10:18:59 GMT -5
Good morning freespirit! I decided to pass on having a piece of the cake-probably fattening and I need to cut calories. "Thinnering" had an excellent idea about a vegetable tray. So I went to the store earlier this morning , bought vegetables and vegetable dip. The trays I made up have mini baby carrots, celery, broccoli, cauliflower, cucumbers, radishes, green onions, green and hot peppers. I don't mind running back to the store even anyone thinks of anything we need.
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