Thanks what, this is a most balanced presentation. David Instone-Brewer has studied the matter in depth and has some very interesting articles - one I particularly like references ancient jewish documents that he came across while doing his Phd.
I don't know how to post the site but if you Google 'ancient jewish divorce documents' you might find it at Lampstandstudy.
The article spoke to "sexual indecency". Now from reading Paul's epistle to the Cor. it seems to me that "defrauding" your spouse was highly spoken against...so to me "withholding" marital relations with one's spouse is "sexual indecency".....and I'm sure it might relate to the reasons why the withholding them. Sometimes it is health related and cannot be helped.....though modern medicine helps many of those reasons....whereas the withholding marital relations or defrauding your marriage partner because of anger, or not getting your way or even IF you believe or even know your partner has been sexually unfaithful seems to be a great sexual indecency.
If one knows or thinks their spouse has been unfaithful, it needs to be dealt with and if one does not think they can forgive and return to the marriage bed, then divorce is the only answer because a continuining of the defrauding is a greater sin. Or so it seems to me.
Matthew 5:32 KJV But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
A worker said 6 years ago "the further we get away from Christ, the muddier the waters". The woman that was told to go and sin no more...after her interaction with Jesus, I wonder what that would compel her to do? What would I be compelled to do? Personally, I probably wouldn't sleep with any of them because that could be hurtful to one or all of them, but I would do everything in my power to help all of them. I would feel that responsible.
We have a four year old and were told the only chance to be right with God was to break up our family.
That is just obscene. God save us from your followers. Is it any wonder people throw up their hands and give up on religion?
Obscene! Def...offensive to moral principles; repugnant. Offensive to mankind's moral principles or Jesus's moral principles? Such a difference! Kinda like the great gulf. What would be more true is how much is obscene behind the scenes on these threads. Probably a whole lot more obscene than meets the eye.
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife ... and shall marry another, committeth adultery
1Cor 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, ....
Would you agree that one should repent of sin to be forgiven? How does one repent from ongoing adultery?
On the other hand, I am aware that there are some people who are D&R that have every evidence of possessing the Holy Spirit. And I live in a region where that is acknowledged.
Emy, I am not questioning who wrote them, only the interpretation thereof. I wonder if you would come to a different understanding if you read those verses in Greek, especially Matt 5:32 as it is the only time in the New Testament where the word for put away is translated into committeth adultery. All other occurrences are translated to put away. There is a difference between putting away and divorce, a big difference and if you don't understand the law nor the custom of the times I understand how one could interpret those verses in that fashion. Put away in the bible is like separation. Read about the custom of the times and how men simply put away wives and would take others. Ask yourself if Jesus was trying to correct a wrong behaviour in the Israelites at that time. Of course they were committing adultery. They were still married. They hadn't yet divorced their first wives and here they were taking another. Of course that is incorrect. However, once they are divorced, they are free to marry again.
However, like many passages of old books, if we don't read them seeking understanding for the times and customs, we will certainly misinterpret them. That coupled with believing in a cruel God, would certainly make believing in grace to these individuals, certainly more difficult. Understanding what I do, I could never keep someone in bondage to their past. That is not the God I know.
Yet, many believe in that kind of God, a harsh, cruel God. Bertrand Russell says it best.
Cruel men believe in a cruel God and use their belief to excuse their cruelty. Only kindly men believe in a kindly God, and they would be kindly in any case. Bertrand Russell, philosopher, mathematician, author, Nobel laureate (1872-1970)
So by divorcing their wives, that is not putting away? Seems very harsh and cruel... putting away, divorce... remarriage.
How would one possibly identify a couple as professing if they fight and express no love?
-- Or to put it another way --
What might it be they are professing?
Well if they're fighting but still enduring one another and looking after one another, that would indicate some form of love yet. But to just throw away the relationship and look for something better... how is that Jesus?
Depending on where you live workers don't approve of you going back to the first spouse. The rules are all diffrent depending on who the overseer is. From west to East the West does'nt think the East is right to let people take part. What a power trip. I'm done. The bible say's there is only on unforgiveable sin, blasphemy agaisnt the Holy Ghost. The East feels the divorce is the sin and the West believes it is the remarraige. Oh Help me God and guide me and help me not to get bitter. We have a four year old and were told the only chance to be right with God was to break up our family. That is not the Jesus I follow.
Breaking up? Is there not a less harmful way to care for one another and still be in line with Jesus?
My ESV study Bible has an extended section on D&R, which it describes as "the most commonly held view among Protestants since the time of the Reformation".
I've never had much of an opinion on this subject but there's been so much discussion on this subject on-line and off, that I had to make up my own mind on it.
This is my own opinion, but the underlying principle seems to be that there is no situation in which a person would be forced to live as a single for the rest of their lives in order to be saved. That makes sense doesn't it. Why would God make man and woman and then have a situation where a God fearing person would have to live alone in order to be saved. Different, if it's voluntary.
The ESV essay argues for two acceptable grounds for divorce based on (1) Matthew 5:32 and (2) 1 Cor 7:12-14. These are (1) sexual immorality by the partner, and (2) unbelieving spouse leaves marriage. In both cases divorce and re-marriage are permissible.
Also, in case one spouse does divorce on insufficient grounds and remarries, then repents his or her sin, she or he should not be thought living in adultery as long as the couple are faithful to each other in the second marriage.
(In reference to a prior post, 'Continuing in sin' does not mean continuing in the state of sin, which we all do, but willfully and rebelliously continuing in a particular sin. Giving up the struggle.)
What is excluded, then? Basically any activity that does not respect the sanctity of marriage, what God has put together, through extra-marital affairs, sexual immorality, or "putting away" a spouse for anything other than the two grounds allowed.
Also, fighting in the marriage is sinful, as is even desiring another man or woman, or prolonged separation ... in some cases.
It seems to me that some aspects of the 2x2 policy can box someone into a state of sin with no hope for redemption. Beyond the love of Jesus; I don't think that is correct, and seems counter-intuitive. Isn't sin something we should always be able to recover from through cleansing and forgiveness?
Take a worst case. Someone has an affair, divorces their first husband, remarries, and all the while continues going to meeting. Clearly while all this goes on, that person should not take part. But if at a later point in time, that person confesses their sin, admits their wrong, feels true remorse for their actions and the hurt and sorrow caused, then, the logical thing is that the person would be able to fully partake once more. And stay in the second marriage, of course. I can't see it any other way, but I could be wrong.
The ex-spouse, the victim of the sexual immorality OTOH would have suitable grounds for divorce, and could re-marry. There is nothing to repent. (Actually, there could be, but not as a direct consequence of the divorce).
Matthew 5:32 KJV But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. 1 Corinthians 7:10-16 KJV And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:  But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.  But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.  And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.  But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases : but God hath called us to peace.  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? I suppose there are other versions of the bible that would make the way less narrow and less straight. Because wide is the gate and broad is the way and MANY there be that go that way.
benar: Perhaps you clicked on the Coronavirus thread...
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wally: proboards can be a bit buggy...i still get virus warnings when clicking on thread links...
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wally: you haven't asked me a question or anything or did i miss one?
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ant_rotten: What’s happening Wally? You’ve gone quite on me..
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wally: its no mystery apostate ant_rotten i am quite vocal...
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kip: Looking for meetings in Maine.
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