Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2008 8:47:17 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you will find than MANY friends and workers practice foot washing on Sundays.
These days with showers, bathrooms, running water makes it very convenient nowadays in the developed world for friends and workers to wash their own feet before they go for worship.
In doing so they are taking an even lesser place than the least by relieving those who would serve them in this manner by doing so themselves. They are in reality serving the servants.
This is all done in secret but they are rewarded openly through not having to sit in meetings with the odour of smelly feet poisoning the atmosphere of the meeting.
Clear evidence that F&W's today are actively involved in foot-washing !
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2008 4:56:01 GMT -5
"Pedal Baptisms !" Whatever next ?
And to think I used to criticise the Catholics because of their rituals !
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Oct 27, 2008 4:24:17 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you're missing the point slightly (maybe deliberately) when people, myself included, question why the 2x2s do not practice footwashing. Speaking for myself, I agree that footwashing should be taken symbolically, and that it means taking a lowly position and serving others, and refreshing them spiritually; but the point we are making is, how can you take such a command symbolically when you insist that other practices such as going two by two, and meetings in the home are matters upon which your salvation depends, when there is no biblical justification for this.
We are simply pointing out the inconsistencies in your interpretation of the word; and showing that you are in fact no different to any other denomination in that you pick and choose how you interpret to suit that which you wish to believe. There is nothing unusual about this, we all do it to some degree, it's just that we would like to hear you confess that you are fallen, deceitful, selfish human wretches just like the rest of us, rather than the upholders of the true and perfect way.
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Oct 27, 2008 17:20:22 GMT -5
[] Nathan, I'll take it we agree on footwashing; but you said, However, we read in the book of Acts the apostles continue going in pairs (2x2) (Acts 3:1) Peter and John. (13:2) Barnabas and Paul. (15:39) Barnabas and John Mark. (15:40) Paul and Silas. but my bible says: Acts 6:8 Stephen travelled alone Acts 8:5 Philip proclaimed the Christ, alone Acts 8:26-40 Philip ministered to the eunuch alone; and then preached the gospel alone "in all the towns" Acts 9:10-18 Ananias ministered to Saul alone Acts 10 Peter acted alone (with witnesses) at Cornelius's house Acts 17 Paul acted alone in Thessalonica Acts 17 paul acted alone in Athens There are many other instances where the Apostles acted other than in two's, either alone or in threes or in the case of Acts 20:4 Paul travelled with seven others. The only conclusions I can draw from the book of Acts in respect of how many should spread the word is that there is no rule. You spread the word, that's it, no more to it, the form is immaterial; and not even remotely close to being something upon which our salvation depends. you said: Going in pairs is the method Jesus used as an service training school for the new ones who just started out in the ministry. my reply, Walking or riding on a donkey was the method of transport he used too. Sandals were the footware he used. You are pre-occupied with the "form" in every case. The form is immaterial, receiving training isn't. you said, We read the Vaudois, Waldenses, Albigenses, Cathars, etc... continue this 2x2 Itinerant ministry for 1800 yrs. I don't read they keep foot washings as an ordinance during the Eucharists = Christ's Passover/Emblems worship gatherings. [/color] my reply, It's not important to me to establish a direct link between the first century and today. There is a spiritual link between first century believers and believers of today; and that's good enough for me. The bible does not point forward to these people, I don't believe I'll be alone in never having heard of them (hmm Cathars maybe); and I'm baffled as to why you continue to refer to them. In Jesus' day the message of the gospel was entirely new, It had to be spread and going two by two would have been an excellent way. Today, in much of the world the gospel is "out there", we have the New Testament and we can study it, we can pray; and others can teach us. In areas where the gospel is unknown missionaries still travel and take the gospel to those parts, sometimes alone, sometimes in twos and sometimes in groups, just like the book of Acts. The reason your preachers feel the need to preach that way in the West is because your gospel is not "out there" it is a new teaching and needs to be taken out. It is the gospel of going 2x2 and meeting in the home. I don't believe your gospel will save us. Modified post: Nathan, I'm almost inclined to delete my post on the grounds of it being antagonistic. That's not my intention, it's just that the reasons the exclusive 2x2's state for being exclusive simply don't stack up to me. I just don't believe the bible reads the way you choose to read it, Sorry!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2008 10:48:49 GMT -5
Foot washing was once all about dirty feet. Bare feet inside open sandals walking on dusty roads created the need for clean feet.
One even wonders if the ancient practice of a host washing the feet of the visitor (before Christ's day) was not for self interest, ie to keep their own house floors clean from the dirt of the visitor. Perhaps it is no different where hosts today often expect visitors to remove their footware when entering the house.
Somehow, because Jesus did it, it became a solemn church ordinance in some churches with deep spiritual meaing. To me it's a little like if Jesus wore a pink tie, then everyone would have to wear a pink tie for a variety deep spiritual reasons which would be determined once the practice is accepted as necessary for salvation.
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Oct 29, 2008 4:46:38 GMT -5
Nathan, Thank you for your reply. I am heartened that you say it is Jesus Christ who saves us. I do not think there is a believer who comes to this board who would say anything other than that, the difference between the exclusive 2x2s and the rest of us; is that you believe that there are additional works which must be adhered to to ensure salvation. These are preachers going 2x2; and the meeting in the home. There is no commandment in the bible that instructs us to go 2x2 or have meetings in the home.
The point I was trying to make about riding on donkeys, and walking from town to town on foot etc, is that it is the same as going 2x2; and having meetings in the home, and also washing feet. None of them are ordinances; but you choose to make two of them so.
The Christians (non 2x2) who come to this board know that it is Jesus Christ who saves them. They have comprehended the enormity of the sacrifice that has been made on their behalf; and the are overcome with gratitude for that fact. Their lives have been changed as a result of that comprehension, and they have ceased to live for themselves, knowing as they do that everything they have comes from God. They have become burdened with helping others who are less fortunate than themselves, they look to people in their neighbourhood; and further afield by doing, and contributing to charitable works, and in some cases missionary work. They come to this board trying to help others see what they have been enabled to see. They have understood what Paul said to the Romans (12:2) 'Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind'. They understand that this is not referring to having TVs or to dress codes etc, but means do not set your hope on earthly things like money or possessions or popularity; but use what you have for the advancement of the kingdom, because everything you have comes from God.
But the exclusive 2x2s say NO NO! that is not good enough, that's just the ideas of men! What you must to to do the work God requires is to go 2x2 and have meetings in the home. If you do not do these things you have not understood the gospel and you will not be saved. Clearday has illustrated it perfectly well with his little pink tie example. The exclusive 2x2s are looking for people wearing the same little pink tie as themselves; and it is most important to them. When they fail to find it they conclude; these people are not of us.
And it is at this point, and I believe this point only, that we differ.
Modified post: My apopogies if I'm going slightly off thread; but I believe footwashing was only being used as an example of how the "exclusives" pick and choose the criteria by which we must be saved.
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theophilia
New Member
God loved me enough to meet me where I was, but too much to leave me there
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Post by theophilia on Oct 30, 2008 18:37:06 GMT -5
Dearly Beloved Otto,
You write with both integrity and humility. May the Lord Bless you.
In Jesus Name,
Theo
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Post by Sharon on Dec 6, 2008 21:42:05 GMT -5
Foot washing was once all about dirty feet. Bare feet inside open sandals walking on dusty roads created the need for clean feet. One even wonders if the ancient practice of a host washing the feet of the visitor (before Christ's day) was not for self interest, ie to keep their own house floors clean from the dirt of the visitor. Perhaps it is no different where hosts today often expect visitors to remove their footware when entering the house. Somehow, because Jesus did it, it became a solemn church ordinance in some churches with deep spiritual meaing. To me it's a little like if Jesus wore a pink tie, then everyone would have to wear a pink tie for a variety deep spiritual reasons which would be determined once the practice is accepted as necessary for salvation. As you said the custom came from long walks and donkey rides with nothing but sandals to cover the feet. However the custom was if it was a house which had servants, a servants bathed the newcomers' feet...BUT should it be a royal or a special guest, the host of the household would wash that said special guest's feet. If no footwashing was offered, it was sad to be barbarian...thus the story of the woman who bathed Jesus' feet with her tears and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Jesus told the host that he hadn't even offered Jesus a footwashing and I think it did say previously that there were servants serving them! So in all reality Jesus didn't count as a "guest" in that household!
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Post by GodIsLove on Sept 8, 2009 21:10:45 GMT -5
This is a good discussion! I appreciate what Otto had to say and I do agree on all points made. I was thinking recently about how we can pick and choose things from the Bible that encourage our own view of things, but leave out other parts. I think there is such a tendency for all humans to do this. Take what we want, ignore the rest. I want to be more careful not to do this with God's word!
I would like to say that if meetings in the home were so crucial to salvation and "being right" with God, I feel sure that Jesus would have left that on record. He would have told us clearly and most likely mentioned it with all his other teachings! (Perhaps sermon on the mount?) But that wasn't truly important to him. It is our heart that he cares about, not a form. I also feel if it were important to go in 'twos' that Jesus would have specified this and told them to keep doing this through all time. I recently did a study on this in Acts and found that as has been mentioned by Otto, there were many times that an apostle was alone by himself preaching the good news of Jesus Christ. Also I've read of there being three and more at one time. And yes there are groups of two that also went together. So the question is from reading about all the different numbers they went in... does it truly matter? Does Jesus say it matters?
Jesus says that in order to be saved we must repent and believe in Him.
Glory to God forever!
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