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Post by selah on Aug 2, 2008 20:03:08 GMT -5
These are three related questions for anyone to answer, but I would specifically like to know how the workers feel about this. I am asking these questions, since they are often at the heart of what causes "professing" people to leave the fellowship.
All thoughtful and respectful comments are appreciated.
Question #1
Do you believe that God has equipped workers with special revelation into understanding the scripture for the purpose of teaching/preaching/leading other believers?
Question #2
Is it possible that one of the friends could have a more accurate understanding of the scripture than the workers?
Question #3
If the answer to Question 2 is "Yes," what would you consider the appropriate procedure to deal with the difference?
Blessings, Linda
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 3, 2008 0:49:37 GMT -5
Cheers Selah, you beat me too it. I to have had this question in my mind a long time.
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Post by worker83 on Aug 3, 2008 12:01:48 GMT -5
1) yes. but not all exclusive to them (see #2) - a very personal scripture to me is when Paul wrote in Corinthians - "if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward, but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is given to me" - that dispensation is what I consider a special gift to certain workers - the condition being stated by Paul - willing to be a worker - as in what I always wanted to be, not a bad thing in itself, and there's blessing/reward - but the better experience is 'against my will' - with the struggle that is required to accept, submit and thus offer for the Work - that depth of conviction of calling leads to a special dispensation. Likely that could be expounded on further - but start a new thread someday on that aspect. 2) Yes 3) As with any God-given revelation the action to take is to live it in your own life. And the fruit of that should be a greater humility. What examples do we have in the Bible of someone having a different understanding of scripture and what action was taken as a result ? I believe that alot of problems/differences/excommunications/exodus from the fellowship has been the result of a God-given understanding or conviction or revelation being put into action with too much human element involved. And that's where there needs to be complete understanding of our own human nature to be clear So the bottom line, is likely - no action toward others, but practice in our own life. Again, just an answer from the heart - that I hope will help, but may not support your own beliefs. . ..good questions !
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Post by selah on Aug 3, 2008 16:44:28 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2008 3:12:27 GMT -5
Question #1
Do you believe that God has equipped workers with special revelation into understanding the scripture for the purpose of teaching/preaching/leading other believers?
~~~ I hope you don't mind for me to answer your questions.
Yes, I believe God has given the workers/apostles special into understanding the scriptures for the purpose of teaching, preaching leading other believers so they too can teach others also.
(Eph 4:7-14) Jesus gave some apostles, some prophets, some teachers, some evangelists, some pastors; for the perfecting of the saints for the work of service of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Till we all come in the UNITY of the faith... that we henceforth be no more children toss to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men and craftiness; whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
Nathan, I do not see how all these offices pertain to workers only. It appears obvious to me that these are different categories of saints, although I have no doubt a degree of overlap applies. However, to limit these to just itinerant preachers is in my view like trying to squeeze them all into the one box.
1) How can an itinerant only ministry (preachers) "perfect " the church when for most of the time it is absent from large portions of the church ? The Apostles in Acts, by way of appointing seven men full of the Holy Spirit to look into certain matters of pure religion, more or less conceded an itinerant ministry alone just couldn't do this. They needed people to occupy other offices (notice importance on condition before position !) to help perfect the church. Without these other people, "neglect" becomes rife. Any modern day parallels ?
2) I think you make the mistake in assuming the "work of service of the ministry" is again limited to the Apostles or itinerant preachers. It goes way beyond that in much the same way as above and moreso.
3) These offices mentioned were to edify the church. This should be done every time the church meets for worship, etc, not just once or twice a year through visiting workers, convention or special meetings. Surely you agree that there are many friends who edify the church, perhaps moreson than some workers ?
Surely a person's condition before God is more important than their position ? Jesus went to great pains to preach and teach about the condition we must have, not our position !
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Post by selah on Aug 5, 2008 16:45:46 GMT -5
Hi Nathan,
If one of the friends has a more accurate revelation to the meaning of a passage of scripture than the workers do, how is she/he to go about bringing that to the workers' attention, and if the workers still maintain their view, what is the next step? (I'm referring to issues that are important, not just matters of preference)
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Happy Feet on Aug 11, 2008 15:48:27 GMT -5
I do not believe that God has equipped workers with special revelation of understanding the scripture for the purpose of teaching/preaching/leading other believers any more than any other pastor in another church. In fact, I find the workers revelation of Scripture to be wanting.
They emphasis their own way, over and above that of Jesus. Other pastors outside of their group place the full emphasis on Jesus as the way, not their group. I do not know another group that preaches salvation based on belonging to a certain group and our own works such as where we meet, going 2x2, and so on.
Other churches preach Christ within is our hope of Glory, not how we do things.
So no, I do not believe that the workers have a special revelation. I believe their revelation is based on their founder, William Irvine's revelation.
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Post by worker83 on Aug 11, 2008 21:57:21 GMT -5
Let's not get this thread off on William Irvine(that's history) this thread is revelation - go back to the history thread here and see the question I posted there please.
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Post by to worker 83 on Aug 12, 2008 9:07:46 GMT -5
I wonder if you would reconsider your decision to not post. Perhaps you could talk to some of the workers and you could take turns posting.
I am b&r, never professed. I remain (I hope) respectful to this day. I enjoyed your answers. I may not have always agreed with them, but that is ok. I sincerely looked forward to your posts. I think it is most helpful, interesting, and informative to have you posting here. I urge you to speak to your colleagues. It would be really nice to have a worker to ask questions of.
I think, though I am not trying to speak for others, that most ex's, active 2x2's, and my category who frequent this board would like to hear how workers weigh in on things. I think it is helpful.
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Post by spiderman on Nov 12, 2008 18:32:08 GMT -5
I do not believe that God has equipped workers with special revelation of understanding the scripture for the purpose of teaching/preaching/leading other believers any more than any other pastor in another church. In fact, I find the workers revelation of Scripture to be wanting. They emphasis their own way, over and above that of Jesus. Other pastors outside of their group place the full emphasis on Jesus as the way, not their group. I do not know another group that preaches salvation based on belonging to a certain group and our own works such as where we meet, going 2x2, and so on. Other churches preach Christ within is our hope of Glory, not how we do things. So no, I do not believe that the workers have a special revelation. I believe their revelation is based on their founder, William Irvine's revelation. well stated.
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Post by pianoman on Nov 12, 2008 20:19:35 GMT -5
I would just like to add that workers spend a great deal of time being taught by elder workers, and go to workers meetings and have a lot of time to spend reading the Bible and becoming familiar with it. I guess the question is does familiarity with the scriptures and the ability to pass on things you have learned because you spend a great deal of time being "schooled" give you a special dispensation. I think not. Since I saw Chuck Morris was killed in the accident, I am reminded of what he told me once. They had meetings in a town and the only one that responded was a man that was mildly retarded, that swept the gym out where they had the meetings. The man started coming earlier every time until he was the first one there instead of just showing up when the meeting was over to sweep up. Did this man have something that no one else had? Maybe a seeking heart. I think when we mention special dispensations, we are forgetting what Paul mentioned " I must decrease so He may increase. Just a thought. I also was around Tharold Slyvester when he was the overseer of Washington in the 80's and he got extremely off track, as many are aware. I think that if we continue to look to Christ, this is a moot question, but one that needed to be addressed. These are only my thoughts.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 18, 2008 15:25:43 GMT -5
I am a little puzzled when I find you equating workers with apostles. An apostle is one who has seen the risen Christ and according to Scripture Paul was the last apostle. I believe the Holy Spirit will reveal His will to every truly born again child of God and workers do not have a monopoly on this. The promise in 1 Peter 2:9 'But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light' stands in parallel with God's promise to the Children of Israel in Exodus 19:5+6. This is a promise for every child of God, not only the workers. We are a people redeemed by the precious blood of Christ and we are all called to be witnesses to His saving power. The prayer of each of our hearts should be simply 'lead me to some soul today, teach me Lord just what to say' and if we are sincere about that prayer it is amazing the doors that the Lord will open for us to share our faith in Christ with the lost souls around us,
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Post by lin on Nov 20, 2008 9:45:23 GMT -5
Scripture was revealed and understood before Jesus ever sent out his apostles. There could come a day that there would be no workers. Would that mean there would be no understanding of God's thoughts? I doubt it.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 20, 2008 17:16:53 GMT -5
Apostleship is associated with founding churches and conveys authority over them in terms of imposing discipline and also in terms of receiving and transmitting authorative revelation, so that apostles, along with prophets form the foundation of the church as we find in Ephesians 2:20 and 1 Cor 12:28-29; 2 Peter 3:2. Since the apostles were witnesses of the resurrection and formed the foundation of the church, it follows that their office was a first generation phenomenon and incapable of repitition; they had no successors and in priciple there cannot be any. Yet the church can and must still be apostolic in the sense that it must live by their teaching enshrined in New Testament Scriptures, and must follow their example of suffering with their Lord. To claim to be an apostle is failing to recognise that apostleship is associated with being witnesses of the resurrection.
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Post by shushy on Nov 21, 2008 2:07:32 GMT -5
Since the apostles were witnesses of the resurrection and formed the foundation of the church, it follows that their office was a first generation phenomenon and incapable of repitition; they had no successors and in priciple there cannot be any.
Irvinegrey,
I believe God is raising up these two ministries prior to the return of Christ as he has with the Teachers/Pastors /Evangelists in the last 100yrs or so.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 25, 2008 14:55:48 GMT -5
Nathan I am afraid I find the first sentence of your reply to my comments both patronizing and condescending. Some of are capable of expressing our own thoughts and views!
You seem so adamant that my view is false but you really do not expand your reasons. I will begin with the premise that all of the apostles were disciples but not all of the disciples were apostles.
The majority of times that apostle/apostles is used in Scripture it comes from the Greek apostolos and usually refers to one with miraculous powers that is sent.
We have the twelve and we have Paul who all fulfill that definition and furthermore fulfill the terminology used in Ephesians 3:20. 'Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets'. When the canon of Scripture was complete we were left with the final revelation before the Lord Jesus Christ returns.
In many of the introductory remarks in his letters Paul defends his apostleship for example Romans 1:1 Galatians 1:1 Titus 1:1. More importantly we have a very clear distinction in 1 Cor 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle and Sosthenes, our brother - not fellow apostle. 2Cor 1 Paul and apostle... and Timothy our brother. In his two letters to Timothy he claims his apostleship and refers to Timothy as his son - not fellow apostle.
Surely it is reasonable to deduce form these references that Timothy did not enjoy the same apostolic status as Paul?
When we accept the Bible as God's revealed word then we cannot allow for special revelation. Furthermore by trying to put the workers on par with the apostles we must then reasonably expect them to have the same miraculous powers that was evident by the NT apostles.
I still stand by what I wrote previously and just for you Nathan, this is all my own work !
Today as part of my research I spoke with a lady in her eighties, an early member of the 2x2 movement, who gave clear testimony to being born again and looking forward to meeting her Lord and Master who ransomed her with His own blood at Calvary. Here was a lady who had all the revelation she needed to secure the salvation of her soul.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 25, 2008 16:23:23 GMT -5
Could you please clarify by what you mean and in what sense. by the question 'was Jesus an apostle' ?
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 26, 2008 14:48:53 GMT -5
I always find it puzzling why folk use Scripture as a pretext when they try to support an opinion that has little or no Biblical basis and I am afraid that is what I think is going on in Nathan's response.
Let us start with 2 Corinthians 12 where we are told that Paul has a thorn in the flesh. There is absolutely no basis for the assumption that this is an illness but one thing for certain is that Paul can live with his thorn in the flesh because 'My grace is sufficient'. Praise the Lord for such assurance!
We then come to verse 12 and there is absolutely no ambiguity.'The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works'. ESV.
You wonder why Paul did not heal his fellow workers? I am afraid I do not question the wisdom of Paul or the things we are not told in God's word. I just simply believe the things I am told.
Just as I believe that the New Testament does not teach an exclusively two by two ministry. I find Philip in Samaria - alone. Peter in Joppa - alone. We have Paul in Damascus and Tarsus - alone. Hardly good examples for the two by two pattern.
We cannot treat God's word as we do a menu. We cannot pick and choose and simply emphasize those parts that seem to suit us best.
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Post by Gene on Nov 26, 2008 14:59:50 GMT -5
We cannot treat God's word as we do a menu. We cannot pick and choose and simply emphasize those parts that seem to suit us best. Ah, but we do. In fact, we go further than that: we pick and choose the holy book - Bible, Koran, Origin of Species, Mein Kampf etc. that seems to suit us best - though usually "what suits us best" reflects our cultural and, later, educational background.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 26, 2008 15:06:45 GMT -5
Gene sadly what you say is true. However, if you take my comment in context, I am referring to those who claim the Bible as their sole rule of faith and practice but seem to treat as a menu.
May God bless you richly
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Post by toffeecrumble on Nov 27, 2008 19:28:27 GMT -5
I do not believe that God has equipped workers with special revelation of understanding the scripture for the purpose of teaching/preaching/leading other believers any more than any other pastor in another church. In fact, I find the workers revelation of Scripture to be wanting. They emphasis their own way, over and above that of Jesus. Other pastors outside of their group place the full emphasis on Jesus as the way, not their group. I do not know another group that preaches salvation based on belonging to a certain group and our own works such as where we meet, going 2x2, and so on. Other churches preach Christ within is our hope of Glory, not how we do things. So no, I do not believe that the workers have a special revelation. I believe their revelation is based on their founder, William Irvine's revelation. hmmmm.... I disagree and here is why. I professed in 1979. I have NOT heard or read about William Irvine theory as the Founder until 1998 on the Internet. So how could my revelation based on WI's revelation.
Most of the friends and workers around the world hardly knew or heard about WI's revelation for 90 yrs.
So, I say my and their revelation came from God NOT WI's ideas or revelation. Many of the friends and workers just read about WI on the Internet around the year 2000. But many of us had revelation about Jesus the truth and way before we read or heard about WI life, ministry, as an ex-2x2 after he left the ministry in 1914, and his death in Jerusalem in 1947.
This is why I disagree with your observation and belief all of the friends and workers based on WI revelation.
It is their particular take on the gospel, their choosing certain bits while omitting other parts of scripture (which method Irvine initiated) No one has suggested that you personally knew Irvine's revelation. The workers have handed down this particular stance over the last hundred years or so. You embraced it when you say you professed.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 29, 2008 12:46:12 GMT -5
'I have NOT heard or read about William Irvine theory as the Founder until 1998 on the Internet. So how could my revelation based on WI's revelation.' Toffeecrumble
There are some things that can be classified as theory, others as fact. It is no theory that William Irvine was a leader and founding member of of the movement. That is fact. Only on Tuesday I interviewed the lady who wrote a book on Edward Cooney, William Irvine's co leader in the early days. She knew Edward Cooney very well and there is no denying the fact of William Irvine's role.
You have lost me with the rest of your coment. Perhaps you dould please elaborate on the revelation to which you refer? I can be a bit slow in the uptake, at times!
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Post by shushy on Dec 3, 2008 9:05:23 GMT -5
1) You wonder why Paul did not heal his fellow workers? I am afraid I do not question the wisdom of Paul or the things we are not told in God's word. I just simply believe the things I am told.
I havent thought about this before Irvine. That the Apostles had a choice. Did they? I've always thought that the anointing/power of the Holy Spirit flows through the person praying/laying on of hands. That the Apostles were like a channel for Gods glory. That God is the one whom descides who receives the healing.
Nathan the power gifts were a sign to unbelievers. They didnt heal themselves. Jesus Christ is the healer. Not the A[postle he is just the instruement God uses. A working miracle is a miracle in process. It happens in steps. I dont believe the workers today are Apostles for a number of reasons. They dont believe in: 1. The power of God is for today. Why? God changes not. 2. The laying on of hands, for healing, deliverance, the work of the ministry, impartation of giftings etc 3. Spiritual gifts. 4. Other ministries that God sets up. Pastors, teachers, Evangelsits, Prophets, Apostles, helps, deacons etc 5. Baptism of the Holy Spirit. In short they believe a powerless Gospel. 6. They do not give out and share what comes in whether it be clothing/food/money/etc etc etc
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Post by ilylo on Dec 3, 2008 23:18:04 GMT -5
I am totally disagree with you about the workers believe a powerless Gospel.... I have seen the miracle of the 2x2s workers' gospel has done in my own life.... VERY VERY powerful gospel. ...which still pales in comparison to the Gospel we read about in the Bible.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 5, 2008 21:03:02 GMT -5
Scripture was revealed and understood before Jesus ever sent out his apostles. There could come a day that there would be no workers. Would that mean there would be no understanding of God's thoughts? I doubt it. lin! It's said that there hadn't been any prophecies for a long time just before Jesus was born. I think for those still struggling to keep true to God found it a "dry deserted time" perhaps. And it seems there were very few with understanding, a lot of hardened hearts with perhaps the letter of the law within their hearts but not the love of God written there also.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 30, 2016 11:00:10 GMT -5
Repeating the questions in the original Post:
Question #1 - Do you believe that God has equipped workers with special revelation into understanding the scripture for the purpose of teaching/preaching/leading other believers?
Question #2 - Is it possible that one of the friends could have a more accurate understanding of the scripture than the workers?
Question #3 - If the answer to Question 2 is "Yes," what would you consider the appropriate procedure to deal with the difference?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 12:04:53 GMT -5
Repeating the questions in the original Post: Question #1 - Do you believe that God has equipped workers with special revelation into understanding the scripture for the purpose of teaching/preaching/leading other believers? Question #2 - Is it possible that one of the friends could have a more accurate understanding of the scripture than the workers? Question #3 - If the answer to Question 2 is "Yes," what would you consider the appropriate procedure to deal with the difference? yes yes speak the truth at all times no matter the costs....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 15:20:30 GMT -5
Repeating the questions in the original Post: Question #1 - Do you believe that God has equipped workers with special revelation into understanding the scripture for the purpose of teaching/preaching/leading other believers? Question #2 - Is it possible that one of the friends could have a more accurate understanding of the scripture than the workers? Question #3 - If the answer to Question 2 is "Yes," what would you consider the appropriate procedure to deal with the difference? 1/Yes, some workers but not all of them.
2/Yes that possibility exists.
3/Polite, civil, friendly and meaningful discussions between friend and workers to highlight the differences in interpretations and understanding with the objective of being united, correct/accurate united in understanding and interpretations, and to be on the same page, so to speak. Sometime we see, hear and internalize the same things differently.
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