Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2007 14:55:57 GMT -5
Why does anyone automatically believe the "rod" in "spare the rod and spoil the child" refers only to hitting the child with a stick? The psalmist wrote "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me."
A shepherd (and yes I have been one and speak from experience) uses his rod on the bodies of enemies of the sheep, not the sheep!!!! I was raised to believe it did mean whipping, etc. I no longer accept that as the true meaning. The rod is also used by a shepherd to control the direction a sheep is intended to go, and NOT by beating...and personally, I now believe that is the true meaning of the verse.
Once I was told the bible even says "beat your child, he will not die." Can anyone find it? I've never been able to do so. Amazing how many things are said to be in the bible, and once I just accepted being told such things as true, but no longer.
Yes I was routinely whipped, even kicked, for my childhood transgressions, real or real only in the mind of parents. What I hated in ME was the urge to fight back, and it was a close thing as I lay in a fetal position, being whipped and kicked at age nearly 16. There simply is no call for such type of correction.
Just as there is always the danger of putting an innocent person to death because of error in information, so can parents error (and often do) in correcting the wrong child. Smiles, perhaps this is why "only children" in my childhood experience in the 40's and 50's did not receive so many, if any, beatings!!!
Dennis
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Post by Observing on Jan 11, 2007 15:23:48 GMT -5
Once I was told the bible even says "beat your child, he will not die." Can anyone find it? I've never been able to do so. Amazing how many things are said to be in the bible, and once I just accepted being told such things as true, but no longer.
This one you should have accepted: Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. This is a sad statement. And also untrue, as so sadly demonstrated everyday.
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jude
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Post by jude on Jan 11, 2007 15:55:10 GMT -5
Dennis, I agree with your translation of the rod in the scriptures. I always thought it to mean that to spare the discipline, spoil the child.
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star
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Post by star on Jan 11, 2007 16:11:43 GMT -5
Dennis, I agree with your translation of the rod in the scriptures. I always thought it to mean that to spare the discipline, spoil the child. The 14th verse of the 23 of Proverbs will dispel the feeling that the bible means anything other than corporal punishment. I don't think there can be much of an argument made saying that the OT does not support, even encourage, corporal punishment.
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Post by Howard6 on Jan 11, 2007 16:19:27 GMT -5
I agree Dennis.
It is indeed an awful thing when children are abused.
It is often made worse when the child abuser uses scripture to justify their immoral acts.
Unfortunately, I suspect this occurs more than any of us realize.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2007 17:45:46 GMT -5
Hey thanks for that reference. Actually I did accept it, but just could never find it, guess I didn't look dilligently enough. Maybe I just preferred not to find it, 'spose?
Sadly, beatings, murders, and violence beget more of the same. Yet, just because Solomon in his great wisdom had a life and death struggle with his own brother for the throne, does not mean the practices of the day were for all time. I still prefer the picture of a shepherd's comforting rod as the true meaning of that scripture for today.
This does not mean that I don't think any form of corporal punishment is ever justified, but I don't believe it should be anything but a very last resort. Some people use it even today as a standard punishment, which reflects to me a gross lack of education and yes, possibly even intellect, as they can figure no other creative and more effective way to discipline a child. Shrug. What works with one, won't work with another, and I had an uncle who lost his mind because of his beatings as a child/youth.
Some of his siblings even abused wives, which tells me the "old man" did also, despite his "professing" status, for I believe wife abuse, like child abuse is most frequently is a learned rather than an innate trait. But then, that is just my opinion.
Sincerely,
Dennis
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Post by VLDRM6E on Jan 11, 2007 18:13:26 GMT -5
Yes I was routinely whipped, even kicked, for my childhood transgressions, real or real only in the mind of parents. What I hated in ME was the urge to fight back, and it was a close thing as I lay in a fetal position, being whipped and kicked at age nearly 16. There simply is no call for such type of correction.
Dennisyou are a liar dennis. not only did this not happen you, none of your siblings ever report seeing this behavior or have it happen to them. jerry, joan (if alive) and kathy would tell you this to your face. derold and joe did not treat you like that.
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Post by Wondering on Jan 11, 2007 20:29:00 GMT -5
VLDRM6E, You must be one of Dennis' siblings to so strongly refute his comment. Yes, it does seem interesting that some parents are accused of such things. And I would also question why someone would post such an accusation were it not true. From your statement you do sound like you have a very close relationship with Dennis' family. Are you willing to openly refute his statement by providing your true identity? At least Dennis is willing to leave total trail including his email, accurate name, phone number and postal address.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2007 20:43:30 GMT -5
No, the person is likely not any relation to us, for he/she does not even know how to spell my mother's name. I am not a liar, but that person is a coward, to make such an accusation from anonymity as well as a false accuser.
If anyone really wanted the truth, they could ask my mother if she EVER had to come to my room before I went to school and ask if I were too badly bruised to go to school. I DID lie then and told her "no" because I did NOT want to remain at home.
If my sister were alive, she most certainly WOULD confirm what I have expressed if asked and she were willing to be honest. As to the two younger ones claiming such did not happen, then they were ignorant. my brother was but a child of 7 when I left home, my younger sister but 4 years older. 2&2ism demands coverup of such things, it does not acknowledge them readily, and if someone does report such things, they are quickly accused of lying..
True, my younger siblings were not treated so harshly, but one of them is quoted to me as having said my mother claimed to have told my dad, "we raised the first two your way, we will raise these two my way," for which I am very glad for them. You, sir, or ma'am know only what you have been intended to know.
Sincerely,
Dennis
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Post by ali on Jan 11, 2007 21:02:42 GMT -5
Once I was told the bible even says "beat your child, he will not die." Can anyone find it? I've never been able to do so. Amazing how many things are said to be in the bible, and once I just accepted being told such things as true, but no longer.
This one you should have accepted: Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. This is a sad statement. And also untrue, as so sadly demonstrated everyday. Some children definately HAVE been beaten to death and it is probably happening somewhere in the world at this very moment. I have talked with abused kids and it is HEARTBREAKING, especially when they've been taught to think they deserved it. Sick.
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Post by Old Bean on Jan 11, 2007 21:14:14 GMT -5
Dennis, your story brought back some ugly memories of my own experience with a violent 2x2 ex-husband.
I was married for just a month to when I first witnessed his violent side. At that time his victim was a can of oil and his weapon a pair of needle nose pliers but I was scared wondering if he would ever turn on me.
Prior to our marriage he was manipulative and controlling but I didn't see it at the time. I was raised believing a fairytale image of marriage, that the wife was submissive and never crossed her mate, ever.
The control issues continued after we were married and my first beating came on Thanksgiving Day. My clothes were ripped and I had bruises all over my face and neck where he tried to choke me.
I lived with this behavior for nearly 12 years. Once he told me his grandfather had been abusive to his grandmother and she lived with him until the day she died and that I should just put up with the correction he chose to dish out to me.
He stopped the physical abuse but there was plenty of other abuse he expected me to put up with. What was really strange to me is the support he managed to muster in the field where we lived. When I left him it was as if I was the bad guy.
I can't entirely blame his problems on the 2x2's but it is definitely a factor. He is now on wife #3.
Old Bean
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Post by ali on Jan 11, 2007 21:34:42 GMT -5
I extend my sympathy to both of you and I hope you have some peace now?
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jan 11, 2007 21:39:40 GMT -5
I think every parent should read, "Playful Parenting". I forget who the book is by, but he approaches that subject very well!
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Post by Old Bean on Jan 11, 2007 21:43:36 GMT -5
Ali, didn't know if your comment was addressed to me or Dennis but I'll answer anyway... Unequivocally, YES! I am married to a wonderful, beautiful man who knows how to treat this lady.
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Post by ali on Jan 11, 2007 21:51:21 GMT -5
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Post by lsah on Jan 11, 2007 21:52:18 GMT -5
It seems that often abuse is targeted at one child in the family.
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Post by Wondering on Jan 11, 2007 22:07:05 GMT -5
Do I want my Heavenly Father to treat me like I treated my children? Even with my children now in their mid 20's and 30's, am I treating them as I would like my Heavenly Father to treat me?
Dennis would love to have a relationship with his parents but that hasn't been allowed to happen possibly because of image. My prayers are that his parents will be willing to repent and make their family a family. I question whether it can happen within the 2x2 realm!
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Post by explain on Jan 11, 2007 22:36:51 GMT -5
This is certainly an awful topic. Is this related to 2x2's? I am trying to see the connection.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2007 23:18:17 GMT -5
Oh, it's 2&2 related, alright. Perhaps if you keep trying, you might see the connection. But since you obviously need some help, I'll give some to you.
2&2's want to present such a perfect image to everyone else that coverup at all costs is most important to some. Think about the one who was not there, could not know, yet had tha audacity to assert I am lying because it does not fit their image of what they want to believe true. That is ONE 2&2 connection. 2&2s along with other such groups do it constantly.
Initially it was just a reply to another thread, but on a different bent because I did not want that thread hijacked. People who have never been beat black and blue, had huge welts raised across their face automatically deny the possiblity of it happening to another, especially when it does not fit the image wished to be remembered, even though the song is sung at funerals "only remembered by what we have done."
Surely I will be remembered for what I have done, both good and bad. If one waits to say anything until someone is dead, they are accused of slandering the dead. Well, I've just chosen to relate true experiences from my lifetime. Since these occurred while in the 2&2 fold that is another connection. Truly people don't want to hear/read truth.
They would rather accuse another of lying than admit what is related might be true. If you related something very true that is as vivid in YOUR memory as if it occured yesterday, and were accused of lying about it, wouldn't you be irritated? And then have another apparently wish it were not even reported because they didn't see any 2&2 connection? Well, there is.
Sincerely,
Dennis
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Post by explain on Jan 11, 2007 23:30:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation. I am truly sorry that you went through what you did.
Having been in social work for a long time, I have seen way too much child abuse. Way, way too much. Physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect..... it is truly sickening.
That being said, from my experience, I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that child abuse among 2x2's is much, much lower than the general population. Sure there are exceptions, but the 2x2's that I know are some of the most loving, devoted and involved parents that I have ever witnessed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2007 23:45:22 GMT -5
One form of correction which worked very well on my daughter, but not so well on my son was "mercy." Now and then my daughter would do something quite naughty when she was a youth. I saw it as an opportunity to teach the meaning of "mercy." So I told her on a couple of occasions, "honey, what you did was very very naughty, wrong, and should be punished, but I am not going to punish you."
"Do you want to know why I am not going to do so?"
"In my lifetime, I've done naughty things too, and God had every reason to punish me, but He has not because He had mercy. He made it very clear what I had done was very wrong, and even naughty-like. I was sorry and he forgave me. So, I am going to forgive you too."
To this date, she says those were the worst punishments of all because she could not do anything, nor suffer anything for the wrong she had done. No punishment was ever given, and I've even forgotten now what those transgressions were.
My son, on the other hand, sought to use that to his advantage. He was old enough to behave well in public, but chose not to do so in a convention meeting and being an image conscious 2&2er through and through, I had to get up and take him out. On the way he bellars loud enough for everyone in the entire tent to hear, "Mercy, DAD, Mercy!"
Kids need lots of mercy. Lots and lots of mercy! Parents who do not use mercy in their discipline miss out on a really great educational tool in reasoning with their wee ones who DO respond to it, some just better than others. We rejoice to relate that we have wonderful relationships with our grown daughter and son.
Once someone told me regarding something I was grieving over and could not make right no matter how hard I tried. "if YOU didn't break it, possibly YOU can't fix it." There is wisdom in that comment.
Parents expect children to communicate with them; teachers expect students to communicate with them; employers, employees... Yet surely the best of all three are those who have not expected the communication open from the bottom up, but from the top down.
Once I asked a man who had many children and all a credit to his name what he attributed it to in their upbringing. His reply was quick and concise. "Discipline when they were old enough to learn the lesson, young enough to forget the punishment." I perceive much wisdom in that still.
Sincerely,
Dennis
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Quietly Sitting There And
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Post by Quietly Sitting There And on Jan 12, 2007 0:02:17 GMT -5
Quietly sitting there waiting for the 2nd meeting to start at convention and about 5 minutes before it starts I hear some child talking to loud and then whack and the the loud screaming of pain from the little child.
I see a young mother in here long pretty dress and well done hair with the bun racing out with the toddler about three years right past me. To my horror I say a large red hand print with finger tips on the little child's cheek. With a Jewish tongue I say....And This is Love?
I am weeping in my heart even today thinking as I write this. Shame Shame on any who would think this to be right.
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Post by Corrections on Jan 12, 2007 0:05:24 GMT -5
Quietly sitting there waiting for the 2nd meeting to start at convention and about 5 minutes before it starts I hear some child talking to loud and then whack and the the loud screaming of pain from the little child. I see a young mother in here long pretty dress and well done hair with the bun racing out with the toddler about three years right past me. To my horror I say a large red hand print with finger tips on the little child's cheek. With a Jewish tongue I say.... And This is Love?I am weeping in my heart even today thinking as I write this. Shame Shame on any who would think this to be right. Quietly sitting there waiting for the 2nd meeting to start at convention and about 5 minutes before it starts I hear some child talking a little too loud and then whack and the the screaming of pain from the little child. I see a young mother in her long pretty dress and well done hair with the bun racing out with the toddler about three years of age right past me. To my horror I see a large red hand print with finger tips on the little child's cheek. With a Jewish tongue I say....And This is Love? I am weeping in my heart even today thinking as I write this. Shame Shame on any who would think this to be right.
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Post by judgemental on Jan 12, 2007 0:10:27 GMT -5
Quietly sitting there waiting for the 2nd meeting to start at convention and about 5 minutes before it starts I hear some child talking to loud and then whack and the the loud screaming of pain from the little child. I see a young mother in here long pretty dress and well done hair with the bun racing out with the toddler about three years right past me. To my horror I say a large red hand print with finger tips on the little child's cheek. With a Jewish tongue I say.... And This is Love?I am weeping in my heart even today thinking as I write this. Shame Shame on any who would think this to be right. Typical 2x2...... judging someone else based on the little bit you manage to see........ knowing nothing about the situation other than what your eyes tell you......... oh well........... at least your judgements are contained withing the cult.
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Post by You Sicko on Jan 12, 2007 0:15:12 GMT -5
Quietly sitting there waiting for the 2nd meeting to start at convention and about 5 minutes before it starts I hear some child talking to loud and then whack and the the loud screaming of pain from the little child. I see a young mother in here long pretty dress and well done hair with the bun racing out with the toddler about three years right past me. To my horror I say a large red hand print with finger tips on the little child's cheek. With a Jewish tongue I say.... And This is Love?I am weeping in my heart even today thinking as I write this. Shame Shame on any who would think this to be right. Typical 2x2...... judging someone else based on the little bit you manage to see........ knowing nothing about the situation other than what your eyes tell you......... oh well........... at least your judgements are contained withing the cult. You are one sicko. No adult should hit any child in the face especially a three year old such that they have red hand marks. This is clear child abuse. It was a 2x2 who did the abuse so mark it as you will.
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Quietly sitting there
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Post by Quietly sitting there on Jan 12, 2007 0:15:13 GMT -5
Quietly sitting there waiting for the 2nd meeting to start at convention and about 5 minutes before it starts I hear some child talking a little too loud and then the rattle of a pill bottle as the parent slips a drug to the child with a bottle of water.
I see a young mother in her long pretty dress and well done hair with the bun drugging her child right in front of everybody. To my horror I see a small pill slip past the lips of the child and, minutes later, watch her as she lethargically knods off to sleep, drugged into a temporary coma by her own parent. With a Jewish tongue I say....And This is Love?
I am weeping in my heart even today thinking as I write this. Shame Shame on any who would think this to be right.
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Post by juliette on Jan 12, 2007 0:16:24 GMT -5
Quoting Dennis Jacobson: "Once someone told me regarding something I was grieving over and could not make right no matter how hard I tried. "if YOU didn't break it, possibly YOU can't fix it." There is wisdom in that comment."
Dennis, it is so freaky that you wrote this. My relationship with my parents is not very close. My main accomplishment during the past 10 years has been to create appropriate boundaries (which they didn't like) because of their desire for control. For years, I've heard from them "why don't we see you more, why don't you want to spend time with us". So this is the freaky part... I woke myself up a few months ago in a dream about my mother saying "She wants me to fix it, but I didn't break it". My goal with my children is to nourish a relationship where they WANT to spend time with me when they are older.
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Post by A SAD AMEN on Jan 12, 2007 0:18:31 GMT -5
Quietly sitting there waiting for the 2nd meeting to start at convention and about 5 minutes before it starts I hear some child talking a little too loud and then the rattle of a pill bottle as the parent slips a drug to the child with a bottle of water. I see a young mother in her long pretty dress and well done hair with the bun drugging her child right in front of everybody. To my horror I see a small pill slip past the lips of the child and, minutes later, watch her as she lethargically knods off to sleep, drugged into a temporary coma by her own parent. With a Jewish tongue I say....And This is Love? I am weeping in my heart even today thinking as I write this. Shame Shame on any who would think this to be right. Amen. Drugging children is never the answer. Scratch that. It seems to be the answer these days. How sad.
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