shiloh
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Post by shiloh on Apr 27, 2010 7:11:08 GMT -5
Do the overseers in western USA still uphold and promote the harsh remarriage policy of the late Eldon Tenniswood? One cannot take part until their ex-spouse is dead? How does Mark Huddle, Harold Bennett, Dale Shultz, Dean Bruer, and company feel about divorce remarriage in 2010?
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Post by someguy on Apr 27, 2010 9:59:24 GMT -5
Do the overseers in western USA still uphold and promote the harsh remarriage policy of the late Eldon Tenniswood? One cannot take part until their ex-spouse is dead? How does Mark Huddle, Harold Bennett, Dale Shultz, Dean Bruer, and company feel about divorce remarriage in 2010? nothing has changed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 10:38:00 GMT -5
It could be argued that it has shifted to a bit more hardline position. Some areas are now actually barring D&R people from even entering a fellowship meeting. I don't believe that was the case in the ET days.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2010 11:23:47 GMT -5
It could be argued that it has shifted to a bit more hardline position. Some areas are now actually barring D&R people from even entering a fellowship meeting. I don't believe that was the case in the ET days. I wonder if the excommunication of the D&R couples is widespread in Australia or IF it was just one single couple?
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Post by stargazer on Apr 27, 2010 11:28:54 GMT -5
It could be argued that it has shifted to a bit more hardline position. Some areas are now actually barring D&R people from even entering a fellowship meeting. I don't believe that was the case in the ET days. I think an assertion like this should be supported with facts.
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 27, 2010 11:44:28 GMT -5
I can understand that divorce should be discouraged. If after counseling that is still the solution then so be it. I think in many cases thats the only solution. I know of l situation where a husband tried to kill his wife and the oldest son intervened. Workers told the wife to stay and then sided and supported the husband. Divorce here was the only answer. The thing that I find so sick is the overseers won't forgive and yet God does. Never a sin so great. The workers always have a quick answer for other folks lives but when it comes to correcting CSA they drag their feet until forced to do something by formal charges. A little irony here?
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Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2010 11:48:33 GMT -5
I can understand that divorce should be discouraged. If after counseling that is still the solution then so be it. I think in many cases thats the only solution. I know of l situation where a husband tried to kill his wife and the oldest son intervened. Workers told the wife to stay and then sided and supported the husband. Divorce here was the only answer. The thing that I find so sick is the overseers won't forgive and yet God does. Never a sin so great. The workers always have a quick answer for other folks lives but when it comes to correcting CSA they drag their feet until forced to do something by formal charges. A little irony here? The irony doesn't stop there...I've been lamblasted by some that I HAVE to forgive the workers...their repentance makes it necessary....I asked even if it continues? I thought repentance meant behaviours changed? ?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Apr 27, 2010 11:50:11 GMT -5
Kind of like the lice the magicians in Egypt couldn't get rid of. Because it was on them too.
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Post by someguy on Apr 27, 2010 12:36:43 GMT -5
It could be argued that it has shifted to a bit more hardline position. Some areas are now actually barring D&R people from even entering a fellowship meeting. I don't believe that was the case in the ET days. I think an assertion like this should be supported with facts. The facts...according to who? Doubtful that you would accept it from me, but clearday is bang on. Walter Burkinshaw in BC barred 2 different couples from even entering a fellowship meeting now that they are D&R.
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Post by stargazer on Apr 27, 2010 15:22:48 GMT -5
I think an assertion like this should be supported with facts. The facts...according to who? Doubtful that you would accept it from me, but clearday is bang on. Walter Burkinshaw in BC barred 2 different couples from even entering a fellowship meeting now that they are D&R. thanks, that's a good start.
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Post by sojourningthrulife on Apr 27, 2010 16:11:21 GMT -5
How many times is it okay to "divorce and remarry" when an ex-spouse(s) is/are still alive? When your answer corresponds with God's Word: (what Jesus spoke when asked the question), then the matter will be settled.
However, for some folks they want to be judged regarding the matter on the judgment day --"adulterers and lladymongers God will judge." Better to be judged now: "There is joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth." There is no joy in heaven over unrepented people.
It is not kind to let people think they have been salvaged from the deceiver if they remain in their sin. Go and sin no more.
Whenever there is a divorced and remarried couple there is manifestation that someone on the first round (marriage) did not forgive their mate and when the remarriage occurred there is manifestation that those couples entering into that second marriage did not accept the GRACE that God would have liked to have given them to remain unadulterated.
So many of you are screaming about that the friends and workers don't understand "grace." Yet, those who are divorced and remarried, and those who think it is all right, cannot see the "grace" that the Lord would like to provide to people who have been divorced.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2010 16:21:13 GMT -5
How many times is it okay to "divorce and remarry" when an ex-spouse(s) is/are still alive? When your answer corresponds with God's Word: (what Jesus spoke when asked the question), then the matter will be settled. However, for some folks they want to be judged regarding the matter on the judgment day --"adulterers and ladymongers God will judge." Better to be judged now: "There is joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth." There is no joy in heaven over unrepented people. It is not kind to let people think they have been salvaged from the deceiver if they remain in their sin. Go and sin no more. That brought to my mind about the Samarian woman at the well...Jesus told her all that she'd done...she'd had multiple husbands and the one she had NOW was NOT her husband! There are NO indications what Jesus told her she should do about that....now do you suppose after she'd received the "water of life" that she continued as she had been....now be careful for we're talking about a culture where a woman has little recourse without some male taking care of her! I'm not saying she did, but that wasn't the point Jesus was making with her, IMO....He introduced her to the everspringing well of life and apparently with her running back and tell the men folk, she believed on Jesus....wasn't that her taking the everspringing well of life? I think so..... So it would seem that she repented but it doesn't say what changes she made in her daily living because one has to remember what the culture was of that day....she'd likely been without home, food, clothing etc IF she'd left the man she was not married to. Do you suppose that is where common law marriages came into effect? Sounds kind of like she was the man's concubine and it never came out of Jesus' mouth about concubines that I know of. The laws of the land is what has pushed the "divorce" and "remarriage" issue onto people by outlawing more then one wife, which is biblical...that is having more then one wife is biblical. No word against more then one wife in the Bible...we had this discussion on another thread. So to continuing living with a remarriage partner is continuing in sin? Though they've repented? How many more lives can be wrecked with another separation and it would take a divorce again to make them "available" for their other living ex spouse! I think the main issue with D&R is the trespassing against one another...once the trespass is done, then to cause another divorce is just making for another trespass against someone else. IMO
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 27, 2010 17:13:28 GMT -5
How many times is it okay to "divorce and remarry" when an ex-spouse(s) is/are still alive? When your answer corresponds with God's Word: (what Jesus spoke when asked the question), then the matter will be settled. However, for some folks they want to be judged regarding the matter on the judgment day --"adulterers and ladymongers God will judge." Better to be judged now: "There is joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth." There is no joy in heaven over unrepented people. It is not kind to let people think they have been salvaged from the deceiver if they remain in their sin. Go and sin no more. THEN the "matter" will be settled? No, the matter has been settled, and it's not what you think it is. If you continue to believe that people cannot get remarried after a divorce, you continue in your own sin. Our NT tells us that Jesus didn't do away with one little piece of the Law, and the LAW states that with the proper bill of divorce a person can marry someone else. Our NT also tells us that when you preach something opposed to this, you will be the least in the kingdom. The choice is definitely yours! E
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Post by emy on Apr 27, 2010 18:21:59 GMT -5
...Our NT tells us that Jesus didn't do away with one little piece of the Law, ... E Please check that verse again, Edy: Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. Would you agree that fulfilling the law was at least some of what God gave him to do? Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
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Post by ronhall on Apr 27, 2010 18:27:54 GMT -5
How many times is it okay to "divorce and remarry" when an ex-spouse(s) is/are still alive? When your answer corresponds with God's Word: (what Jesus spoke when asked the question), then the matter will be settled. However, for some folks they want to be judged regarding the matter on the judgment day --"adulterers and ladymongers God will judge." Better to be judged now: "There is joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth." There is no joy in heaven over unrepented people. It is not kind to let people think they have been salvaged from the deceiver if they remain in their sin. Go and sin no more. That brought to my mind about the Samarian woman at the well...Jesus told her all that she'd done...she'd had multiple husbands and the one she had NOW was NOT her husband! There are NO indications what Jesus told her she should do about that....now do you suppose after she'd received the "water of life" that she continued as she had been....now be careful for we're talking about a culture where a woman has little recourse without some male taking care of her! I'm not saying she did, but that wasn't the point Jesus was making with her, IMO....He introduced her to the everspringing well of life and apparently with her running back and tell the men folk, she believed on Jesus....wasn't that her taking the everspringing well of life? I think so..... So it would seem that she repented but it doesn't say what changes she made in her daily living because one has to remember what the culture was of that day....she'd likely been without home, food, clothing etc IF she'd left the man she was not married to. Do you suppose that is where common law marriages came into effect? Sounds kind of like she was the man's concubine and it never came out of Jesus' mouth about concubines that I know of. The laws of the land is what has pushed the "divorce" and "remarriage" issue onto people by outlawing more then one wife, which is biblical...that is having more then one wife is biblical. No word against more then one wife in the Bible...we had this discussion on another thread.So to continuing living with a remarriage partner is continuing in sin? Though they've repented? How many more lives can be wrecked with another separation and it would take a divorce again to make them "available" for their other living ex spouse! I think the main issue with D&R is the trespassing against one another...once the trespass is done, then to cause another divorce is just making for another trespass against someone else. IMO Just to be nit picky, one of the qualities to look for in choosing an elder, according to Paul, was that he be the husband of one wife. I think the workers interpret that to mean that he be husband of not more than one wife, as I know of at least one elder who was never married in our general locality. Considering this again, perhaps what they really interpret this to mean is to be the husband of not more than one wife, either simultaneously or successively. One would be polygamy the other divorce and remarriage. It is OK to have successive wives through death and remarriage. I dunno. This get kinda mind boggling. Think I'll just forgedaboudit and let the workers sort it all out, since it really doesn't concern me.
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Post by JO on Apr 27, 2010 19:17:18 GMT -5
I dunno. This get kinda mind boggling. Think I'll just forgedaboudit and let the workers sort it all out, since it really doesn't concern me. Where is the bible does it say workers are to sort it all out?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 20:19:31 GMT -5
The facts...according to who? Doubtful that you would accept it from me, but clearday is bang on. Walter Burkinshaw in BC barred 2 different couples from even entering a fellowship meeting now that they are D&R. thanks, that's a good start. Someguy was more than generous with the facts. I could give you names and dates but not on a public forum. Here's another "assertion" for you. Western workers still advise married couples to split up from each other and their children in order to be saved.....that is, if one or both have been remarried and "should have known better". Sorry, no names and dates.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 27, 2010 20:24:57 GMT -5
Here's another "assertion" for you. Western workers still advise married couples to split up from each other and their children in order to be saved.....that is, if one or both have been remarried and "should have known better... Trying to follow this logic... divorce is "sin" murder is "sin" It seems to me that it would be simpler and better for the family to kill off the ex-spouse if it is possible to sin our way into God's grace. fs
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 20:30:30 GMT -5
Where is the bible does it say workers are to sort it all out? ~~ Jesus did... was He right to sort it out? in Matthew 19:8 Jesus said, "Moses permits you to divorce your wives because your hearts were HARD but from the beginning it was NOT so. And I say unto you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall MARRY another committeh ADULTERY: and whosoever MARRY her who is put away does committ adultery."
In I Cor. 7:10,11 Paul wrote Unto the married I give this command, yet NOT I, but the Lord, let NOT the wife depart from her husband: and if she does depart, let her REMAIN unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband: and let NOT the husband divorce his wife.
~~ The workers can only point to the words of Jesus and apostles but leave it there... Let the ones who are involved go to the Lord and get things straighten out with Him..... NOT allowing D&R while their mates are still alive come to the gospel meetings, fellowship meetings, or taken parts in the emblems and meetings are going beyond the authority of Jesus.
Let God deal with them and convince them of their sins and He will give them the POWER within to do what is right before Him. The problem is Nathan, the workers will not point people to the complete biblical record on the issue. Proof? Check the Wednesday night study list from March 31,2010.....it was a dishonest study because it omitted passages which contradicted the Western party line. I'm afraid our Western workers cannot be trusted for full biblical disclosure on the issue, nor an honest interpretation of the passages they do use to support their rulings. A honest worker will point out ALL relevant passages and, as you say, let God do the rest. However, that is not what is happening today and the church takes its liberty in punishing those who are trying to put their broken lives back together.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 20:38:12 GMT -5
Here's another "assertion" for you. Western workers still advise married couples to split up from each other and their children in order to be saved.....that is, if one or both have been remarried and "should have known better... Trying to follow this logic... divorce is "sin" murder is "sin" It seems to me that it would be simpler and better for the family to kill off the ex-spouse if it is possible to sin our way into God's grace. fs Technically, it's not divorce that is considered a mortal sin, it's remarriage. But your logic is perfectly accurate because murder is a forgivable sin, remarriage is not, so murdering your ex actually will bring you back into the meetings and considered right with God (after you have done your time in Folsom presumably). Here's the other thing: live with lots of spouses serially (but no marriage certificate), have lots of kids, over a period of time, then when you want to come back to meetings, no problem and your marriage will be blessed by the workers. However, if you get married for one day to one nutball who beats you to near death and you get remarried, you burn in hell.....no forgiveness is possible. Who dreams up these rules?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 20:47:21 GMT -5
I agree Nathan.
I don't mind if the workers even have a wrong position on the issue. They should just state their case but then leave it between God and the individuals. You're perfectly correct.
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 27, 2010 21:08:15 GMT -5
...Our NT tells us that Jesus didn't do away with one little piece of the Law, ... E Please check that verse again, Edy: Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. Would you agree that fulfilling the law was at least some of what God gave him to do? Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. So what you're saying is that Jesus fulfilled all the law with his death, and none of it applies anymore? If you believe that, then it's okay to just skip over all the commandments and stuff like that? 'K, I get it. Modified: If you believe this, Paul says this makes you LAWLESS. Is that where you want to be? Jesus has not yet completed all the work that will fulfill all of the Law.
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 27, 2010 21:43:21 GMT -5
I agree Nathan. I don't mind if the workers even have a wrong position on the issue. They should just state their case but then leave it between God and the individuals. You're perfectly correct. CD Right on.I think thats the way workers should handle it if they are asked for advice.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2010 21:57:36 GMT -5
That brought to my mind about the Samarian woman at the well...Jesus told her all that she'd done...she'd had multiple husbands and the one she had NOW was NOT her husband! There are NO indications what Jesus told her she should do about that....now do you suppose after she'd received the "water of life" that she continued as she had been....now be careful for we're talking about a culture where a woman has little recourse without some male taking care of her! I'm not saying she did, but that wasn't the point Jesus was making with her, IMO....He introduced her to the everspringing well of life and apparently with her running back and tell the men folk, she believed on Jesus....wasn't that her taking the everspringing well of life? I think so..... So it would seem that she repented but it doesn't say what changes she made in her daily living because one has to remember what the culture was of that day....she'd likely been without home, food, clothing etc IF she'd left the man she was not married to. Do you suppose that is where common law marriages came into effect? Sounds kind of like she was the man's concubine and it never came out of Jesus' mouth about concubines that I know of. The laws of the land is what has pushed the "divorce" and "remarriage" issue onto people by outlawing more then one wife, which is biblical...that is having more then one wife is biblical. No word against more then one wife in the Bible...we had this discussion on another thread.So to continuing living with a remarriage partner is continuing in sin? Though they've repented? How many more lives can be wrecked with another separation and it would take a divorce again to make them "available" for their other living ex spouse! I think the main issue with D&R is the trespassing against one another...once the trespass is done, then to cause another divorce is just making for another trespass against someone else. IMO Just to be nit picky, one of the qualities to look for in choosing an elder, according to Paul, was that he be the husband of one wife. I think the workers interpret that to mean that he be husband of not more than one wife, as I know of at least one elder who was never married in our general locality. Considering this again, perhaps what they really interpret this to mean is to be the husband of not more than one wife, either simultaneously or successively. One would be polygamy the other divorce and remarriage. It is OK to have successive wives through death and remarriage. I dunno. This get kinda mind boggling. Think I'll just forgedaboudit and let the workers sort it all out, since it really doesn't concern me. You brought up a good point, Ronhall! An elder should be the husband of only ONE wife...not D&R at all....and that would be to the fact that his family is under ONE roof and under his counsel....when there is a separation of family, then it is hard to always have the right conditions for a man to take over the elder position and responsibilities...a D&R man would sometimes have to deal with his former family, esp. if there are children...there are two many factors to take up his mind then a man who's family is still under one roof, so to speak. That said, I don't think Paul's counsel about how to choose an elder, has anything to do with the fact that D&R folks would not be welcome in a mtg. just not in an elder position. Although I've know of situations where the D&R man often is asked to lead the mtg. In all instances, those who lead the mtgs. are not really filling elders' position.....and there are few real "elders" assigned within the fellowship that have the authority from the workers to carry out their elder duties. Leading a mtg. is about all most of them get to do.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 27, 2010 22:06:44 GMT -5
Who dreams up these rules? I dunno. Organized religion doesn't make sense to me. I think if people followed what the bible says about men loving their wives and women respecting their husbands their lives then they wouldn't have this issue in the first place. But people don't do that. These days a lot of people seem to think that the bible is some moldering out-of-date text that is "cultural" rather than something to read, study, meditate on and apply to their own lives. On the front of the USA today is an article that said that of the ones who "believe they will go to heaven because they have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior" 68% did not mention faith, religion or spirituality when asked what as "really important in life" 50% do not attend church at least weekly and 36% rarely or never read the bible. I think that there is a lot of blessing in following the God-breathed scripture and a lot of heartache in getting away from it. I don't believe that because I've been some paragon of virtue but because I have not. Mostly I'm not someone who just takes somebody else's word for things but I have to fall flat on my butt or make some embarrassing public spectacle. So my experience is that God (and His word) is a really good map for how to get the most blessing out of life. I'm not sure what to tell people when they get away from God and their lives get kinda tangled up. I think that the wrong thing to tell them is to stop being with other believers. fs
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Post by sharonw on Apr 27, 2010 22:22:15 GMT -5
Someguy was more than generous with the facts. I could give you names and dates but not on a public forum. Here's another "assertion" for you. Western workers still advise married couples to split up from each other and their children in order to be saved.....that is, if one or both have been remarried and "should have known better". Sorry, no names and dates. ~~ Paul wrote in I Cor. 6:9 Know ye NOT that the unrighteousness shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God? be NOT deceive, neither fornications, nor idolaters, nor Adultery!..... shall inherit the kingdom of God.
~~ The workers should encourage these people to go to God FIRST and ask for His forgiveness! truly Repented from their sins and work things out with Him.
The workers shouldn't STAND on front of the heaven's gate and NOT allowing people to enter in... This is God's kingdom and only Him who makes the final decision of which person is not allow to enter in heaven and NOT men.All sins are forgiveable except the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost! I think the problem is in trying to make people leave the second marriage esp. when there are children involved...that makes those children more or less illigetimate, wouldn't it....Oh, I know if they're born after the parents are legally married by the law they'd be legitimate but emotionally that's what it comes down to.....that would be offending the "little ones", I'd think.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 22:23:40 GMT -5
It seems that just when people need us the most, we throw them under the bus and then feel we have done our godly duty.
"If you want to make people happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama
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Post by freespirit on Apr 27, 2010 22:30:24 GMT -5
If you want to make people happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing." --Paul
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