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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 15:47:14 GMT -5
Yes Dietcoke that is something that I have wanted to do... in fact there is a Buddhist temple down the road from me. I have been thinking about going down there and seeing if they would allow me to meet with them... I find their culture very interesting. I know they have a different perspective.. I would like to see just what that is.
I have tried to do that throughout these entire threads... mainly IMO it tells others what you believe and it is a way to spread the Good news to the world. I never thought that I would cause all this big uproar. But maybe some have benefited from the discussion.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 6, 2009 16:11:57 GMT -5
you have caused no uproar, ithascome. You have stated your opinion well. Some like the idea of a statement of Beliefs, others do not. Curiously, it seems that for the most part, the innies don't want one, the outies want them to have one. And, dudeler, that's enough reason not to have one.
But for a better reason, it is simply this: If the f&w's develop a SoB, half the membership will disagree, and it will either cut the meetings in half or turn them into arguments as the contentious ones try to prove their point. As it is now, I can point to many different viewpoints on many different topics within our meeting...such as the trinity, D&R, and whether outies are saved...and it does not seem to hinder fellowship at all, since such side issues are not painted in big letters.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 16:22:08 GMT -5
Yes I thought of that also... but wouldn't it make the fellowship stronger in the end... after all the smoke has cleared? I sat and read a long thread where mostly the 2x2s were doing the talking and most of you seemed to agree that something needed to be done or the fellowship may die out within your lifetime. So what do you think will help your numbers so that will not happen. It seems to me if you have a website and a belief statement that it might help some... as I said you could post some contact info so those interested may be able to contact you. Isn't this thinking out of the box a little... if you keep doing it the same way... your fears may come true. But I think more than anything... the problem here is that no one has any authority to do anything about it... so why even talk about it. It is the workers responsibility... seems that it has always been that way. The friends have little say so... or at least that is the way it was in the past. Maybe some day it will change. I had a vision come to mind... anyone ever see Braveheart with Mel Gibson?
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gells
Senior Member
Posts: 744
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Post by gells on Oct 6, 2009 17:28:44 GMT -5
As I stated before, I believe that what matters the most is my relationship with God, and following what Jesus taught. Read my post. Ok... so what did Jesus teach? This isn't a snide question... I'm just wondering if you can stipulate what your beliefs are... or at the risk of alienating your workers... what you think they believe. So what you are trying to tell me is that I need to post all of Jesus' teachings up here?? I think that we are all quite capable of reading the New Testament, and the words written in Red. I think that what is of utmost importance is that we need to have humility, we need to love others, we need to serve God with all of our hearts, we should not judge others, and we need to help others when we can. I can continue, but I think that you can get the point.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 17:34:10 GMT -5
AMEN!!!
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Post by sharon on Oct 6, 2009 18:32:37 GMT -5
Thank you for your efforts to encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are. I think it is necessary for us to do that whether we ever write them or not....but it will help the fellowship to strengthen and hopefully grow in the right direction to the Lord and Saviour! It's a bit rich to put John on a stool and to make out that he understands/knows more about our beliefs than we do. NO WHERE in my gratitude to his efforts did I say HE KNEW MORE ABOUT OUR BELIEFS than we do! Do YOU know what your beliefs are? My point in this, IF we cannot be ready with an answer...then we're far from the goal that Jesus asks us to be. The Bible tells us so!
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Post by ilylo on Oct 6, 2009 21:38:49 GMT -5
So what you are trying to tell me is that I need to post all of Jesus' teachings up here?? I think that we are all quite capable of reading the New Testament, and the words written in Red. I think that what is of utmost importance is that we need to have humility, we need to love others, we need to serve God with all of our hearts, we should not judge others, and we need to help others when we can. I can continue, but I think that you can get the point. No. I said nothing at all about posting all of Jesus' teachings. In your own words, who is Jesus Christ to you? In your own words, who is God? In your own words, what is the Bible? Have you ever really thought about these things?
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 6, 2009 21:56:20 GMT -5
So what you are trying to tell me is that I need to post all of Jesus' teachings up here?? I think that we are all quite capable of reading the New Testament, and the words written in Red. I think that what is of utmost importance is that we need to have humility, we need to love others, we need to serve God with all of our hearts, we should not judge others, and we need to help others when we can. I can continue, but I think that you can get the point. No. I said nothing at all about posting all of Jesus' teachings. In your own words, who is Jesus Christ to you? In your own words, who is God? In your own words, what is the Bible? Have you ever really thought about these things? Okay, so I said that I believe in Jesus teachings and you asked what did Jesus teach.. But.. Okay here we go. Who is Jesus Christ? Well Jesus was a man sent here by, and is one with God and was born of Virgin Mary. He is the son of God, and the word in the flesh. He came to die for our sins, and he taught many things to his disciples. He was denied by Peter, and betrayed by Judas. He died on the Cross for our sins, and he was risen three days later... I think we can all agree on these things.. can we not? Who is God? Well God is the creator of the earth, and all things. In my own words what is the bible?? Well I tend to read either King James Version or New International Version. It consists of books that are different accounts of different events that happened in the past, regarding the old and the new covenant. It gives us guidance as to how to live our lives, and it contains the teachings of Jesus, according to several different individuals. Does this answer your questions?? I could go more into depth, but I think that this gives you an idea.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 6, 2009 22:00:59 GMT -5
Give him an example, ilylo. what are YOUR answers?
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 6, 2009 22:01:58 GMT -5
By the way.. I don't claim to know everything, I don't know much really!! and I never can learn all that there is to know. I do claim that I love to continue to learn about God, and to study the Bible. I don't know a lot of scripture, but I do hope that I still have time to continue to learn it, interpret it, discuss it with others, and to try and live it. I also know that Jesus wanted us to live for others, and to love God with all of our hearts. I think that this is very important.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2009 22:59:30 GMT -5
It's a bit rich to put John on a stool and to make out that he understands/knows more about our beliefs than we do. NO WHERE in my gratitude to his efforts did I say HE KNEW MORE ABOUT OUR BELIEFS than we do! Do YOU know what your beliefs are? My point in this, IF we cannot be ready with an answer...then we're far from the goal that Jesus asks us to be. The Bible tells us so! How would he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't already know what they are? And how could he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't know more than those who he was trying to encourage? Yes I know what my beliefs are How can one give an answer to one who believes what they know is superiour? That is the position you have put him in.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2009 23:02:06 GMT -5
Anyway I spoke from my heart... I love God and I love you too. Hope I have not offended you ... sorry if I have.... I have my own salvation to work out as do you... may we meet in heaven. God bless!! Peace!!! No you haven't offended me but don't believe that I or we in the fellowship need to be told of how we are to be.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 23:36:24 GMT -5
Jesus says that if another member of the Church is doing something wrong... we should go to the brother to try to help them stop doing it .... and due to the fact that I believe I am a part of the Body of Christ I feel that this is what Jesus would want me to do... and really there is nothing that you will be able say that will convince me that I should do different.
So really your only options are ignore me or to listen to me.
I would hope that I would gain a brother.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 6, 2009 23:45:45 GMT -5
Jesus says that if another member of the Church is doing something wrong... we should go to the person to try to help them stop doing it .... and due to the fact that I believe I am a part of the Body of Christ I feel that this is what Jesus would want me to do... and really there is nothing that you will be able say that will convince me that I should do different. Just curious as to where you get this from? Does he say this directly? Because who are we to say if somebody is doing something wrong? Just kind of confused, if you could clarify...
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Post by ithascome on Oct 6, 2009 23:50:36 GMT -5
Matt. 18:15
There are many examples of things that have been done wrong to brothers and sisters... I am just one of them... but what has been done to me is very minor compared to what has been done to some of your other brothers and sister in Christ.
Should I list some examples.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 6, 2009 23:56:56 GMT -5
Matt 15:18 "Moreover if they brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother." (KJV)
I don't think that this means that if someone does something wrong to approach them about it, as we cannot decide whether someone is wrong or not. God is the only judge. But if someone does something against you, that you need to let them know and that its between you and him.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 7, 2009 0:00:42 GMT -5
Matt. 18:15 There are many examples of things that have been done wrong to brothers and sisters... I am just one of them. So if you feel that you need to approach them and ask them about it, then by all means go ahead. But I don't think that all the persons of that church may feel that same way, and that it isn't between you and all of the persons, but rather between you and those that have actually wronged you. I don't know if i can explain myself, but i hope you can get what i am saying. No, you don't need to give me examples, as I am fully aware of what you speak of. I just don't think that these actions may have reflected the desires of everyone in the church. I am mortified at some of the actions that have taken place towards some, and i'm sorry that they happened. I cannot take back what some have done to you and others, but I do know that theirs and your judgment day will come, and that I cannot judge what was right or wrong in decisions and thoughts and actions.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 7, 2009 0:10:30 GMT -5
This is what I have done in this thread... and this has been done not just by me but by many other brothers and sisters that have been wronged. I understand what you are saying about going to the offending brother... but the problem is there are just too many of them to be able to name... and some of them are even dead.
If you are not one of them you have nothing to worry about go in peace and continue to Love your neighbor as yourself.
you are very right it is not your place... only God can do that.... and please realize that I am not judging you either... I am just a voice in the dark that cries out to those who have done wrong to make straight the path that they have been going in for far to long.
The problem is that they will not listen... their heart is hard.... they think they are right... someone has to tell them... this is why there are so many websites out there that have told this same story... over and over again. It will never stop until the wrongs have been made right. I pray to God that your leadership will some day take action.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 7, 2009 0:25:06 GMT -5
If they have done wrong, and they already have been approached, which I'm betting they have, and they do not admit that they are wrong, then its not worth your time. I'm sure you have better things to do than to wait for judgmental people to become nonjudgmental. If they do not see the errors in their ways, well, it sucks to be them. But in the mean time, I hope that you can find peace with God, and to also love others as yourself, and to forgive and forget as Jesus taught.
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thomas
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Post by thomas on Oct 7, 2009 0:35:53 GMT -5
The reason there is no written doctrine is simple. If you don't have anything written down you are free to change anything at our discretion. Which is what is so often the case, especially this one.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 7, 2009 0:42:21 GMT -5
Oh yes it is worth my time... I am retired.. I have all the time left that God will give me.
The problem is that it keeps happening... I read some place where someone was reprimanded just not too long ago... for speaking a truth that is in the Bible during meeting.
So you see a Church without a doctrine is at the mercy of its own leadership and who ever is in power has the total power to determine what is right or wrong according to their own personal beliefs and they can say that they were led by the Spirit... what that Spirit is will not be determined until the Judgment day.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 7, 2009 0:43:23 GMT -5
Yes that is exactly right.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 7, 2009 0:46:43 GMT -5
Jesus says that if another member of the Church is doing something wrong... we should go to the brother to try to help them stop doing it .... and due to the fact that I believe I am a part of the Body of Christ I feel that this is what Jesus would want me to do... and really there is nothing that you will be able say that will convince me that I should do different. So really your only options are ignore me or to listen to me. I would hope that I would gain a brother. Do you assume that we are doing wrong? That would be a very high horse attitude to take would it not? Sort of reminds me of the Pharisee in prayer Why is it you expect us to take your advise when I know you won't take ours?
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Post by kiwi on Oct 7, 2009 0:48:26 GMT -5
Matt. 18:15 There are many examples of things that have been done wrong to brothers and sisters... I am just one of them... but what has been done to me is very minor compared to what has been done to some of your other brothers and sister in Christ. Should I list some examples. Have we trespassed against thee John?
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Post by kiwi on Oct 7, 2009 0:51:41 GMT -5
The reason there is no written doctrine is simple. If you don't have anything written down you are free to change anything at our discretion. Which is what is so often the case, especially this one. Yes of course Thomas why didn't I think of that ;D
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Post by ithascome on Oct 7, 2009 0:53:44 GMT -5
no I do not assume it.
actually that depends who we is... you KIWI have not done so... but others have.. I have already explained that in another post... and there are some other things that I do not care to discuss at this time.
But the greatest thing that the 2x2s/way has done to me is to make me not trust man-made religion in general... and that mistrust has been handed down to my children.... I have told them to not take man's word for it... read the Bible and ask God for understanding... and that was the best advice that I could give them.
I do not expect you to take my advice. All I can do is give some suggestions... it is you that will have to receive a conviction from the Lord. All I am is a mouthpiece. KIWI what advice can you give me that I can not get from God? How can you restore my soul?
Actually When a person comes to faith in Christ, realizing that the entirety of their sin has been placed upon Jesus Christ a tremendous weight of judgment has been removed. I do not need your advice when I have Jesus Christ as my Saviour. I do not mean for that to be rude at all ... it is just fact.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 7, 2009 4:07:28 GMT -5
Do you say we are doing wrong? Do you hold all to account for those who have done wrong? So do you let your children hear a preacher? But if we don't we are termed unchristian? What makes your suggestions more credible than any other mans? And if He convicts me not on your advise? Who's mouthpiece? none Pray So why is it then that we feel you are judging us? is that our conviction from God? and why is that grace not afforded to us? So why do you think we do when we have Jesus Christ? Do you think you could afford us the same grace?
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Post by sharon on Oct 7, 2009 7:15:44 GMT -5
NO WHERE in my gratitude to his efforts did I say HE KNEW MORE ABOUT OUR BELIEFS than we do! Do YOU know what your beliefs are? My point in this, IF we cannot be ready with an answer...then we're far from the goal that Jesus asks us to be. The Bible tells us so! How would he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't already know what they are? And how could he encourage the fellowship to try and understand what their beliefs are if he didn't know more than those who he was trying to encourage? Yes I know what my beliefs are How can one give an answer to one who believes what they know is superiour? That is the position you have put him in. KIWI, you have a very strange perception of what takes to put someone superior! In no way is thanking someone for "their efforts" is putting them superior...it simply is thanking them for "trying"...nothing more, nothing less. How rude! To deny someone thanks for their efforts just because one doesn't agree with them! Their zeal have eaten them up. But does that mean anything more then their zeal is paramount in the whole of the matter? I don't think so. Sometimes literal interpretation of people's word is best instead of putting something to the words that really is NOT SO! Thank YOU, Kiwi, for putting words in my mouth I did NOT speak!
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