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Post by ithascome on Oct 23, 2009 11:03:57 GMT -5
;D Van Gogh had been troubled by mental health issues throughout his life, the episodes became more pronounced during the last few years of his life. In some of these periods he chose or was unable to paint, a factor which added to the mounting frustrations of an artist at the peak of his ability. His depression gradually deepened. On 27 July 1890, aged 37, he walked into a field and shot himself in the chest with a revolver. So... Suicide... is what you call being self-actualized... (WHAT) Your analysis is bizarre for sure. Van Gough was hopelessly stuck at level 2--- Safety He had no idea of sexual intimacy... remember he cut off his ear.. to show his love for another... what would you think about a person that sent you his ear... CRAZY!!!! (WHAT)... I have never posted this before... but there was a time when my mother had to remove a knife from my Dad's hands... because he was contemplating Suicide. It would seem that if 2x2ism was so fulfilling ... A person would not get to that point in their life... Dad had to be in the hospital for a period of time after that.. Glad that they were able to help him.
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Post by JO on Oct 23, 2009 11:28:52 GMT -5
....when my Mom was suddenly widowed by her husband's own hand, in the hospital with a leaking aneurysm and all that goes with it...and there was NO way I could access her husband's bank account and No way I could even determine the validity of their marriage because I could NOT get into that Bank account and the strong box that went with it....one of the workers who is now long gone, came to my Mom's sister and handed her several hundred dollars to help out. Neither my Mom nor I were members of the fellowship at that time. Where he got the money, he would not say...nor when I finally was able to get money for my Mom's needs with backpay....and I went to give him the money, he did not want it.....I felt very beholden to him and whoever donated to the cause....so I insisted he take it and give it to someone else in dire need. If that isn't how it is supposed to work with workers and/or friends involved, then I'm not knowing anything. Seems like practical Christianity to me.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 23, 2009 11:32:29 GMT -5
Angels, Elect & Evil - Doctrine of AngelologyAngels are referenced in the Scriptures no less than 300 times. No. 6: What is the F&W's belief about Angels? Which of the following statements best describe the beliefs of the F&W? Your beliefs? This first group pertains mainly to Holy or Elect AngelsA. We believe that God created an innumerable company of spiritual beings known as angels. Although they are a higher order of creation than man, they are created to serve God and to worship Him, and are not to be worshiped We believe that man was made lower than angels; and that while he was in his human body on earth, Christ took a lower place (Heb 2:6-10). A great company of angels are before the throne of God, and are sent as ministering spirits to minister for believers. B. We believe Angels are spiritual beings created by God to serve Him, though created higher than man. Some, the good angels, have remained obedient to Him and carry out His will, while others, fallen angels, disobeyed, fell from their holy position, and now stand in active opposition to the work and plan of God. C. We believe Angels are spiritual beings created by God who help carry out His work as agents and messengers and to glorify Him. The Bible presents no specific doctrine of Angels, and assumes that God is attended by a company or host of heavenly beings who are subordinate to Himself and who share His company and reflect His glory and majesty. Angels always appear in relation to God and humanity in the role of servants. There are both good and bad angels, but because bad angels are allied with the devil, or Satan, they have considerably less power and authority than good angels. D. We believe Angels are a supernatural, heavenly being, a little higher in dignity than man. Their creation was before the creation of man. They are described as “spirits.” E. We believe Angel is the term applied in Scripture seven different ways: to human messengers, human messengers with a divine message, impersonal providences, bishops, the beings who revolted with Satan, heavenly beings, and the being of pre-eminent excellence known as the "Angel of the Lord." F. We believe angels are created beings who are spirit in nature. They can take physical form and have intelligence. The following activities are attributed to angels; they praise and glorify God, they communicate God's message to humans, they minister to believers, they execute judgment on the enemies of God, and they will be involved in the Second Coming of Christ. G. We believe God created beings called angels as beings of praise and as His messengers; one third of these angels rebelled against God, led by an angel called Satan and was cast out of heaven and is now the enemy of the righteous and good; and he will be cast down to hell at Christ's last judgment. (Luke 10:18; I Pet. 5:8; Rev. 20:2) H. We believe Angels are spirit beings whose office is to do service to the Father and Son in heaven and by His command to intervene in man's affairs upon the earth. They are messengers of God and are not to be worshipped or prayed to. They are not assigned dominion in the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus said in 1Cor.6:3 that the redeemed will reign with Him over the angelic host and judge them. The nature of man is different from that of angels. Mankind is described as "a little lower than the angels" (Heb. 2:5-7). J. We believe in the existence of specially created beings called angels. These spirit beings are generally invisible and from a human standpoint they are innumerable. They possess separate personalities and bear the image of God. They are basically superior to man, yet inferior to God. There are holy, elect angels and unholy, fallen angels (demons). The elect angels minister in behalf of God to believers, the nations of the world, and to unbelievers. They also had significant ministry to Christ. The fallen angels were persuaded to do so by the fallen angel, Satan. Satan now uses his gifts and abilities to attempt to oppose God at every level and by every possible means. The fallen angels or demons assist Satan in his scheme. Eventually, Satan and all his demons will be cast into the lake of fire. This second group pertains mainly to Fallen or Evil Angels, Satan, etc.K. We believe there are angels who were created by God who sinned and became evil. The chief of all evil angels is Satan. He is the great deceiver and opposes God and the work of Christ. His power is limited and can be resisted. L. We believe the word “angel” has basically the same meaning in both the Old Testament and New Testament i.e., “messenger.” Angels are created spirit beings. They do not have bodies of flesh and blood and sometimes appear as humans. Angels were created perfect and holy but Satan, who was once a holy angel, rebelled against God and a third of the holy angels rebelled with him against God. These rebellious angels are called demons or evil spirits. M. We believe that Satan was judged at the cross, and that he, a usurper, now rules as the "god of this world;" that at the second coming of Christ, Satan will be bound and cast into the abyss for a thousand years, and after the thousand years he will be loosed for a little season and then "cast into the lake of fire and brimstone," where he "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Col 2:15; Rev 20:1-3, 10). N. We believe that God created an innumerable company of spiritual beings known as angels; that one, "Lucifer, son of the morning"–the highest in rank–sinned through pride, thereby becoming Satan; that a great company of the angels followed him in his moral fall, some of whom became demons and are active as his agents and associates in the prosecution of his unholy purposes, while others who fell are "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6). O. We believe in a devil called Satan, who along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God. They can, however, be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ. P. We believe that Satan is a created angel who rebelled against his Creator and incurred the judgment of God (Is 14:12-17; Ez 28:11-19). He took numerous angels with him in his fall (Mat 25:41) and introduced sin into the human race by his temptation of Eve. Q. We believe that Satan is the open and declared enemy of God and man; the prince of this world, who has been defeated through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom 16:20); and that he shall be eternally punished in the lake of fire. Subjects covered in Statement of Belief:1. God (only ONE god, God the Father, creator, attributes, etc.) Pg 5, Post #1252. Standard of Authority: Bible (inspired, inerrant, Word of God, etc) Pg 1, Post #33. Jesus (virgin birth, atonement, substitute, life, death, resurrection; relationship to God, etc) Pg 8, Post #1964. Holy Spirit (personality and work; indwelling, illumination, relationship to God) Pg 10, Posts #267-2685. Man & Sin (fall of man, depravity, sin, free will/agency) Pg 11, Post 2956. Angels (Elect & Evil; Holy & Fallen) Pg 24, Post #662 The doctrines below will follow soon...7. Salvation (repentance, regeneration/born again, adoption, saving faith, belief, grace, justification, etc) 8. Believers Responsibility (good works, sanctification, security, conduct, evangelism; great commission) 9. The Church/Assembly, Ministers, Evangelism 10. Ordinances ( baptism & communion, Lord’s Day) 11. The Eternal State (Heaven & Hell) 12. Last Things/The Future (end of world, judgment, rewards, 2nd coming of Jesus, resurrection of the dead, etc) Cherie spent a lot of time preparing this post... so thought I would bring it back for us to consider. I believe in angels.. I know Sharon does... how about you?
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Post by thompo123 on Oct 23, 2009 12:34:44 GMT -5
The doctrine is in the bible - why do you need to elaborate or amend it? Bert, the early church continued steadfastly in the Apostles' "doctrine" (i.e. teachings) long before the New Testament was written. This doctrine was a statement of beliefs, no doubt written on the scrip they were told by Jesus to carry?
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Post by thompo123 on Oct 23, 2009 12:36:09 GMT -5
The doctrine is in the bible - why do you need to elaborate or amend it? Cherie is asking for what the doctrine is ABOUT the bible, which I would argue isn't IN the bible, as it didn't exist at the the time any of the books where written. But, by you're statement, it seems like the belief is: Doctrine is found within the Bible.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 23, 2009 14:10:49 GMT -5
Ithascome, Your analysis is bizarre to say the least. Most people within our society operate at the 'achievement' level within the hierarchy. To put this into a spiritual context, achievement = recognition by others = the broad way. That includes workers, friends, the people you work with, almost everyone. The whole concept of a heierarchy of needs is questionable anyway. A person can be achievement-oriented and still feel a lack socially. True, if you're hungry you don't think of much else. But as you move up Maslow's heierarchy the categories become blurred. Maslow's concept of self-actualization is also controversial. For example, consider Van Gogh who was self-actualized if anyone ever was, and yet was quite deficient in satisfying his social and achievement needs. And it's really hard to put your finger on what Maslow means by "self-actualization". All that is a round about way of saying that I've heard more stupidity come out of that theory than any other. " Ever noticed how some professing women look martyred? Washed up, worn out?" -- ithascome What, don't debunk Maslow's hierarchy for IF you ever worked as a health care worker with ALL kinds of patients, you would understand that there is very much real truth in that hierarchy. Point in fact.....When Kenneth Dissmore went to Madygascar, an island off the eastern coast of Africa, he testified that those people were so poor and starving that there was little to NO interest in "spiritual" things...learning of Jesus, their Savior, etc. Their little dab of strength they had left was used in finding a bite of food for that day or maybe for several days if it could be harvested, found or stolen. IF people can not have their basic needs of food, drink, rest and elimination they WILL never get beyond that level....and When they do they may move up to the next level BUT if they've spent a long time in the lower level, their pyschological fears will hound them often back down into the lower level and it works that way all the way up. I could never reach the top level of that hierarchy for myself as long as I remained under the tutelage of the 2X2's....so after I left the fellowship as a young adult and finally became acquainted with who I am, faults and all...then I could move on. The fellowship tends to keep the membership beat down on the "sins" and "unworthiness" so much they cannot reach the top level of actualization and that means "accomplishments as an individual". The control issue is much to hinder the development of those B&R in the fellowship, so much so that their self-awareness is so far out of kelter they cannot really know who they are. Many of the females in the fellowship become nurses because it is a good wage but mainly because it is "honorable" to do so. Many other female career goals are debunked as "sin". What you said about people operating on survival instincts is true, but social, achievement and other needs do not form into a tidy heierarchy. At any given time you are simultaneously working on many of your "needs" - social, achievement, pleasure and other things. It's simply not the case that a person necessarily thinks, gee, I am lonely so I won't do any schoolwork. Some may, and some may not. But Maslow's heierarchy would predict that a lonely person cannot do schoolwork.. Also, please tell me what "self-actualization" is. Did Jesus preach that we should strive to be "self-actualized"? I'm not a psychologist and probably there's someone around here with more knowledge of that subject. But the problem you describe has more to do with formation of one's identity, which I believe can be an issue in a high commitment faith group. Sometimes people lose themselves, no question.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 23, 2009 14:19:14 GMT -5
Also if you have ever worked as a teacher... you would find out that before any learning can take place... the lower level needs have to be in place. I found that out when I taught homeless ex-cons... we had to feed them before we could teach them. Of course, but one pre-requisite does not make a heierarchy. See my note to Sharon. The paradigm is of some use, but it has no predictive ability so as a useful theory it is suspect. If you Google "maslow's hierarchy of needs critique" you'll find lots of stuff like that below. Maslow's Theory - Limitations and Criticism
Though Maslow's hierarchy makes sense intuitively, little evidence supports its strict hierarchy. Actually, recent research challenges the order that the needs are imposed by Maslow's pyramid. As an example, in some cultures, social needs are placed more fundamentally than any others. Further, Maslow's hierarchy fails to explain the "starving artist" scenario, in which the aesthetic neglects their physical needs to pursuit of aesthetic or spiritual goals. Additionally, little evidence suggests that people satisfy exclusively one motivating need at a time, other than situations where needs conflict.
While scientific support fails to reinforce Maslow's hierarchy, his thery is very popular, being the introductory motivation theory for many students and managers, worldwide. To handle a number of the issues of present in the Needs Hierarchy, Clayton Alderfer devised the ERG theory, a consistent needs-based model that aligns more accurately with scientific research.
(http://www.envisionsoftware.com/articles/Maslows_Needs_Hierarchy.html)
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Post by What Hat on Oct 23, 2009 14:21:11 GMT -5
Don't agree. I don't want to give money to workers for direct aid. I would give money to a separate deaconship within the fellowship or any other informal deacon effort. Most churches that are smart about this keep the two efforts distinct and separate. I can't think of a church that doesn't have completely separate accounts and registered charity numbers for various foreign aid and assistance efforts. On another note, I personally prefer and do support various secular, non-religious groups because I believe that we as human beings are all in this together, and I would like to work on problems shoulder-to-shoulder with my fellow man or woman regardless of race, religion or creed. The workers have always been concerned about the issue of mixing the gospel message with natural gifts, and Acts 6 clearly indicates that they should not be concerned with these kinds of issues. That those issues should be taken care of by the friends. I'm not saying we shouldn't get together as friends to help those in need. That is only fitting and we're seeing more of that, but keep the workers out of it. I totally disagree because of experience perhaps....when my Mom was suddenly widowed by her husband's own hand, in the hospital with a leaking aneurysm and all that goes with it...and there was NO way I could access her husband's bank account and No way I could even determine the validity of their marriage because I could NOT get into that Bank account and the strong box that went with it....one of the workers who is now long gone, came to my Mom's sister and handed her several hundred dollars to help out. Neither my Mom nor I were members of the fellowship at that time. Where he got the money, he would not say...nor when I finally was able to get money for my Mom's needs with backpay....and I went to give him the money, he did not want it.....I felt very beholden to him and whoever donated to the cause....so I insisted he take it and give it to someone else in dire need. If that isn't how it is supposed to work with workers and/or friends involved, then I'm not knowing anything. To ask a worker to take what you give him and give it to someone that he knows of who is needy is not wrong. Most workers will do what you ask with the money you give. And this particular worker had NO qualms of helping someone outside the membership, though there was a relative within the membership. I'm not sure what that was supposed to prove, but it sounds okay by me. I'd rather not be in the habit of using a worker as conduit for my good works and can just see all kinds of issues if that got to be the norm. But a worker doing their own good works, they're the same as anyone else and would probably like to do their share.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 23, 2009 14:38:15 GMT -5
;D Van Gogh had been troubled by mental health issues throughout his life, the episodes became more pronounced during the last few years of his life. In some of these periods he chose or was unable to paint, a factor which added to the mounting frustrations of an artist at the peak of his ability. His depression gradually deepened. On 27 July 1890, aged 37, he walked into a field and shot himself in the chest with a revolver. So... Suicide... is what you call being self-actualized... (WHAT) Your analysis is bizarre for sure. Van Gough was hopelessly stuck at level 2--- Safety He had no idea of sexual intimacy... remember he cut off his ear.. to show his love for another... what would you think about a person that sent you his ear... CRAZY!!!! (WHAT)... I have never posted this before... but there was a time when my mother had to remove a knife from my Dad's hands... because he was contemplating Suicide. It would seem that if 2x2ism was so fulfilling ... A person would not get to that point in their life... Dad had to be in the hospital for a period of time after that.. Glad that they were able to help him.I beg to differ. Maslow's theory would indicate that a man who is stuck at level 2 cannot produce this: Which is one reason I think the theory is wrong. The relationship of various human needs to one other is much more complex in formation than a simple heierarchy. The only thing that really works for me is that a person who is reduced to survival thinking has no other motivators. Other than that I think it's misleading. Like you, I also suspect there is correlation between depression and deeply religious behaviour. But it's hard to say which comes from which. Do people who tend to be depressed seek solace in religion, or do people who are drawn to religion tend to become depressed? How would you determine which is the case?
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Post by What Hat on Oct 23, 2009 14:44:41 GMT -5
Cherie is asking for what the doctrine is ABOUT the bible, which I would argue isn't IN the bible, as it didn't exist at the the time any of the books where written. "But, by you're statement, it seems like the belief is: Doctrine is found within the Bible." The practical application of the belief is that doctrinal issues are solved by going back to first principles, e.g. the Bible itself. Welcome, thompo123, I have not seen you post before. Good point.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 23, 2009 15:17:22 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying... I do not think Maslow ever intended it to be a perfect fit for all people ...just a tool to help us understand what people need for happiness. For example some people may have no desire for sex and never have... so they may be able to bypass that need.. seems weird to me.. but for them it maybe quit normal. The mind is such a complicated thing. This is why psychology is not a perfect science... it may not be a science at all. Science deals with solvable, or specifiable, problems. This means that the type of questions that scientists address are potentially answerable with currently available techniques. Many things about the human mind are not solvable.. All a psychologist can do is help a person cope with their problem.
More about Van Gogh
Van Gogh wanted his work to sell and the fact that they didn't sell was a great cause of concern and frustration for him.. If I remember correctly he only sold two paintings in his lifetime.
Did you know that he had been a lay missionary in Belgium. He almost was dead because he gave away all his money and food to the poor. It was during this time he started panting. He never really worked.. his brother sent him money to live on. He had only one friend... Paul Gogan... but that ended when Vincent in a fit tried to cut Gogan's throat.
Van Gough, along with Monet were hated and kicked out of art galleries because they were impressionists.
So even though Vincent's work is now considered a masterpiece.. back then it was thought of as junk... So Van Gough never did reach self - actualization... he was not respected.. He could not accept that fact so he killed himself... he did not respect himself for who he was.
One of my majors in college was art... I love to talk about it even though it is very much off topic for this thread... guess we better get back on task... ;D
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Post by StAnne on Oct 23, 2009 16:15:13 GMT -5
The question isn't around giving to those outside the church. The question is this - when we as Christians do give to those outside the church, should we do that through our church, or directly (where directly includes non-church aid organizations). That particular piece of Scripture supports the latter interpretation. That is, administer aid directly. We don't need to give the money to the church and let them take care of carnal aid. In your particular case, do the priests administer charitable relief or is it done by other agencies? Any rules around who does what? AAArrrrrrgh! What, is it not common horse sense that says a "number" of people contributing to a cause can do more? Goodness, my piddling bit of money I can afford to give wouldn't get Jack out of Jail at all....but if a few more people contribute the same amount of money, Jack can post bond...NOW I am not trying to infer that all people in jail need to have bond posted, but there are cases where people need to be out of jail to prepare their defense and/or they didn't do anything to have been put in jail, etc. Organizations who do charitable works are so much more effective because of the "reach" they obtain by the multitude of members contributing. That said, since the truth's fellowship has become an affluent membership and moneys are piling up in overseas bank accounts, is it not time to utilize that affluency for the sake of the "least of these"? Yes, there was a time the fellowship was a very"poor" fellowship, but no more. Sorry, What, I missed this. I see Sharon helped out.
I don't know what priests' particular roles are in charitable transactions. Perhaps they sign the checks? I'm sure it depends upon how a particular parish is set up.
I would imagine certain transactions are forwarded to the diocese/archdiocese to be distributed as well. This information might also be available by checking the annual financial reports at various parish or diocese/archdiocese websites.
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Post by sharon on Oct 23, 2009 16:21:34 GMT -5
I totally disagree because of experience perhaps....when my Mom was suddenly widowed by her husband's own hand, in the hospital with a leaking aneurysm and all that goes with it...and there was NO way I could access her husband's bank account and No way I could even determine the validity of their marriage because I could NOT get into that Bank account and the strong box that went with it....one of the workers who is now long gone, came to my Mom's sister and handed her several hundred dollars to help out. Neither my Mom nor I were members of the fellowship at that time. Where he got the money, he would not say...nor when I finally was able to get money for my Mom's needs with backpay....and I went to give him the money, he did not want it.....I felt very beholden to him and whoever donated to the cause....so I insisted he take it and give it to someone else in dire need. If that isn't how it is supposed to work with workers and/or friends involved, then I'm not knowing anything. To ask a worker to take what you give him and give it to someone that he knows of who is needy is not wrong. Most workers will do what you ask with the money you give. And this particular worker had NO qualms of helping someone outside the membership, though there was a relative within the membership. I'm not sure what that was supposed to prove, but it sounds okay by me. I'd rather not be in the habit of using a worker as conduit for my good works and can just see all kinds of issues if that got to be the norm. But a worker doing their own good works, they're the same as anyone else and would probably like to do their share. My point is this, What...the workers are always moving about and they hear what some others say about those in dire need whether it is friends or outside the membership...thus they ARE the ones who can PULL together more help just by word of mouth alone IF they'd just do that. Very few of them will.....I can think of ONE brother worker who has been known to take foodstuffs to some of the poor friends who perhaps were only ONE in a large family who professed but that didn't say that the rest of the family weren't needy....but this one brother was known to do that...he also was known to have gone to garage sales and picked up things that he knew the poor friends needed and he didn't ask to be repaid. It was within his experience to know who needed what a lot of the time and he didn't make a big fuss about it, but he did what HE could do as an individual...not many of them do that.
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Post by sharon on Oct 23, 2009 16:26:12 GMT -5
Back to believing in angels...I believe in angels as ministering spirits with their eyes always turned to God and His Will, not the humans...they're one hierarchy above the human but definitely lower then the Divine God and Jesus, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I also believe that demonic angels are around about and they consult NO ONE, man nor God....they're out for their own trip of power.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 23, 2009 16:35:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure what that was supposed to prove, but it sounds okay by me. I'd rather not be in the habit of using a worker as conduit for my good works and can just see all kinds of issues if that got to be the norm. But a worker doing their own good works, they're the same as anyone else and would probably like to do their share. My point is this, What...the workers are always moving about and they hear what some others say about those in dire need whether it is friends or outside the membership...thus they ARE the ones who can PULL together more help just by word of mouth alone IF they'd just do that. Very few of them will.....I can think of ONE brother worker who has been known to take foodstuffs to some of the poor friends who perhaps were only ONE in a large family who professed but that didn't say that the rest of the family weren't needy....but this one brother was known to do that...he also was known to have gone to garage sales and picked up things that he knew the poor friends needed and he didn't ask to be repaid. It was within his experience to know who needed what a lot of the time and he didn't make a big fuss about it, but he did what HE could do as an individual...not many of them do that. Good point, Sharon. I see emy has set up a thread on 'Charitable Works' so we can continue there and I have something on Stanne's post also.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 23, 2009 16:47:45 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying... I do not think Maslow ever intended it to be a perfect fit for all people ...just a tool to help us understand what people need for happiness. For example some people may have no desire for sex and never have... so they may be able to bypass that need.. seems weird to me.. but for them it maybe quit normal. The mind is such a complicated thing. This is why psychology is not a perfect science... it may not be a science at all. Science deals with solvable, or specifiable, problems. This means that the type of questions that scientists address are potentially answerable with currently available techniques. Many things about the human mind are not solvable.. All a psychologist can do is help a person cope with their problem. More about Van Gogh Van Gogh wanted his work to sell and the fact that they didn't sell was a great cause of concern and frustration for him.. If I remember correctly he only sold two paintings in his lifetime. Did you know that he had been a lay missionary in Belgium. He almost was dead because he gave away all his money and food to the poor. It was during this time he started panting. He never really worked.. his brother sent him money to live on. He had only one friend... Paul Gogan... but that ended when Vincent in a fit tried to cut Gogan's throat. Van Gough, along with Monet were hated and kicked out of art galleries because they were impressionists. So even though Vincent's work is now considered a masterpiece.. back then it was thought of as junk... So Van Gough never did reach self - actualization... he was not respected.. He could not accept that fact so he killed himself... he did not respect himself for who he was. One of my majors in college was art... I love to talk about it even though it is very much off topic for this thread... guess we better get back on task... ;D Cool. I'll just make one off topic post on this subject. Do you know the proper way to pronounce Van Gogh. Not like the Americans do, Van Go. Here it is: www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7r2ghyrYl0
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Post by rational on Oct 23, 2009 16:58:24 GMT -5
There is a very strong "worker speak" found in some hymns....also I know of a xongwriter who has decided to turn songs loose for public hearing and I know that there has been some phrases that had to be rewritten so the general public would understand what the song was saying...that's a fact. For example??
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Post by ithascome on Oct 23, 2009 17:18:48 GMT -5
sounds like someone just hucked a lugie ... yuck!!! code words for coughed up Phlegm. Better talk about angels now... professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=14839Angels, Elect & Evil - Doctrine of AngelologyAngels are referenced in the Scriptures no less than 300 times. No. 6: What is the F&W's belief about Angels? Which of the following statements best describe the beliefs of the F&W? Your beliefs? This first group pertains mainly to Holy or Elect AngelsA. We believe that God created an innumerable company of spiritual beings known as angels. Although they are a higher order of creation than man, they are created to serve God and to worship Him, and are not to be worshiped We believe that man was made lower than angels; and that while he was in his human body on earth, Christ took a lower place (Heb 2:6-10). A great company of angels are before the throne of God, and are sent as ministering spirits to minister for believers. B. We believe Angels are spiritual beings created by God to serve Him, though created higher than man. Some, the good angels, have remained obedient to Him and carry out His will, while others, fallen angels, disobeyed, fell from their holy position, and now stand in active opposition to the work and plan of God. C. We believe Angels are spiritual beings created by God who help carry out His work as agents and messengers and to glorify Him. The Bible presents no specific doctrine of Angels, and assumes that God is attended by a company or host of heavenly beings who are subordinate to Himself and who share His company and reflect His glory and majesty. Angels always appear in relation to God and humanity in the role of servants. There are both good and bad angels, but because bad angels are allied with the devil, or Satan, they have considerably less power and authority than good angels. D. We believe Angels are a supernatural, heavenly being, a little higher in dignity than man. Their creation was before the creation of man. They are described as “spirits.” E. We believe Angel is the term applied in Scripture seven different ways: to human messengers, human messengers with a divine message, impersonal providences, bishops, the beings who revolted with Satan, heavenly beings, and the being of pre-eminent excellence known as the "Angel of the Lord." F. We believe angels are created beings who are spirit in nature. They can take physical form and have intelligence. The following activities are attributed to angels; they praise and glorify God, they communicate God's message to humans, they minister to believers, they execute judgment on the enemies of God, and they will be involved in the Second Coming of Christ. G. We believe God created beings called angels as beings of praise and as His messengers; one third of these angels rebelled against God, led by an angel called Satan and was cast out of heaven and is now the enemy of the righteous and good; and he will be cast down to hell at Christ's last judgment. (Luke 10:18; I Pet. 5:8; Rev. 20:2) H. We believe Angels are spirit beings whose office is to do service to the Father and Son in heaven and by His command to intervene in man's affairs upon the earth. They are messengers of God and are not to be worshipped or prayed to. They are not assigned dominion in the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus said in 1Cor.6:3 that the redeemed will reign with Him over the angelic host and judge them. The nature of man is different from that of angels. Mankind is described as "a little lower than the angels" (Heb. 2:5-7). J. We believe in the existence of specially created beings called angels. These spirit beings are generally invisible and from a human standpoint they are innumerable. They possess separate personalities and bear the image of God. They are basically superior to man, yet inferior to God. There are holy, elect angels and unholy, fallen angels (demons). The elect angels minister in behalf of God to believers, the nations of the world, and to unbelievers. They also had significant ministry to Christ. The fallen angels were persuaded to do so by the fallen angel, Satan. Satan now uses his gifts and abilities to attempt to oppose God at every level and by every possible means. The fallen angels or demons assist Satan in his scheme. Eventually, Satan and all his demons will be cast into the lake of fire. This second group pertains mainly to Fallen or Evil Angels, Satan, etc.K. We believe there are angels who were created by God who sinned and became evil. The chief of all evil angels is Satan. He is the great deceiver and opposes God and the work of Christ. His power is limited and can be resisted. L. We believe the word “angel” has basically the same meaning in both the Old Testament and New Testament i.e., “messenger.” Angels are created spirit beings. They do not have bodies of flesh and blood and sometimes appear as humans. Angels were created perfect and holy but Satan, who was once a holy angel, rebelled against God and a third of the holy angels rebelled with him against God. These rebellious angels are called demons or evil spirits. M. We believe that Satan was judged at the cross, and that he, a usurper, now rules as the "god of this world;" that at the second coming of Christ, Satan will be bound and cast into the abyss for a thousand years, and after the thousand years he will be loosed for a little season and then "cast into the lake of fire and brimstone," where he "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Col 2:15; Rev 20:1-3, 10). N. We believe that God created an innumerable company of spiritual beings known as angels; that one, "Lucifer, son of the morning"–the highest in rank–sinned through pride, thereby becoming Satan; that a great company of the angels followed him in his moral fall, some of whom became demons and are active as his agents and associates in the prosecution of his unholy purposes, while others who fell are "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6). O. We believe in a devil called Satan, who along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God. They can, however, be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ. P. We believe that Satan is a created angel who rebelled against his Creator and incurred the judgment of God (Is 14:12-17; Ez 28:11-19). He took numerous angels with him in his fall (Mat 25:41) and introduced sin into the human race by his temptation of Eve. Q. We believe that Satan is the open and declared enemy of God and man; the prince of this world, who has been defeated through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom 16:20); and that he shall be eternally punished in the lake of fire. Subjects covered in Statement of Belief:1. God (only ONE god, God the Father, creator, attributes, etc.) Pg 5, Post #1252. Standard of Authority: Bible (inspired, inerrant, Word of God, etc) Pg 1, Post #33. Jesus (virgin birth, atonement, substitute, life, death, resurrection; relationship to God, etc) Pg 8, Post #1964. Holy Spirit (personality and work; indwelling, illumination, relationship to God) Pg 10, Posts #267-2685. Man & Sin (fall of man, depravity, sin, free will/agency) Pg 11, Post 2956. Angels (Elect & Evil; Holy & Fallen) Pg 24, Post #662 The doctrines below will follow soon...7. Salvation (repentance, regeneration/born again, adoption, saving faith, belief, grace, justification, etc) 8. Believers Responsibility (good works, sanctification, security, conduct, evangelism; great commission) 9. The Church/Assembly, Ministers, Evangelism 10. Ordinances ( baptism & communion, Lord’s Day) 11. The Eternal State (Heaven & Hell) 12. Last Things/The Future (end of world, judgment, rewards, 2nd coming of Jesus, resurrection of the dead, etc)
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Post by rational on Oct 23, 2009 21:11:37 GMT -5
Van Gough, along with Monet were hated and kicked out of art galleries because they were impressionists. One of my majors in college was art... I love to talk about it even though it is very much off topic for this thread... guess we better get back on task... ;D I have always considered van Gogh to be a post-impressionist! If I recall correctly, the young artists that initially withdrew from the Salon de Paris (Académie des Beaux-Arts) following many rejections and culminating in the rejection of Manet's Le déjeuner sur l'herbe were considered realists and and only later were joined in various other exhibitions with others who would become known as impressionists. FYI - Gauguin.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 23, 2009 22:05:06 GMT -5
hmm! Might be I have forgotton somethings... would have to look it up and study it again.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 26, 2009 13:04:13 GMT -5
Since a majority of the f&w operate this way, maybe there is more being done than we are aware of? No question. But there are also some who say, all charities are crooked and "worldly". They are not uncharitable people but give only to the ministry. I think that is really only ignorance; it certainly contravenes Christ's teaching. I don't mind telling people we support World Vision, for example. I think it's a great organization. I tell them because I'm hoping they would feel at liberty to do the same. I know for a fact that monies left over from the year in the ministry here goes to the Red Cross.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 26, 2009 15:41:36 GMT -5
Thats interesting... is that common?
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Post by sharon on Oct 26, 2009 15:43:27 GMT -5
Thats interesting... is that common? Not that common....a lot of unused or needed money is sent to the friends and workers in poor countries.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 26, 2009 22:05:35 GMT -5
No. 7 Salvation
What is the F&W's belief about Salvation?
Which of the following statements best describe the beliefs of the F&W? Your beliefs? ________________________________________ Salvation by Grace:
A. We believe Salvation is a free gift of God. The death of Christ on the cross is the only sufficient payment for our sins. All have sinned, but all can be saved. This salvation is available for any who put their trust in Christ as Savior (Romans 3:23, 6:23; John 3:16). Those trusting Christ should repent of sin, confess their faith, and be baptized (Romans 10:9; Acts 2:38).
B. We believe that salvation from everlasting punishment and entrance into a state of fellowship with God are secured only by a personal belief that Christ bore our sins in His own body on the cross and by a definite receiving of Christ. This is to receive eternal life and to be sealed unto the Day of Redemption.
C. We believe that Christ died as a sacrifice for our sins and that, because He shed His blood, the salvation of man is a free gift of God by grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his death for us (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9).
D. We believe that salvation is a free gift by God's grace through faith without works of any kind (Ephesians 2:8-9), that all who accept the Lord Jesus Christ by faith are born again by the Holy Spirit and become the children of God (John 1:12)
E. We believe the salvation of man is wholly a work of God's free grace and is not the work, in whole or in part, of human works or goodness or religious ceremony. God imputes His righteousness to those who put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation, and thereby justifies them in His sight.
F. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures as a substitutionary sacrifice and that all who believe on Him are redeemed by His shed blood. We believe that salvation is the gift of God’s grace. It cannot be gained or made more secure by meritorious works, but is freely bestowed upon all who put their faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary. All who so trust the Savior are forgiven of their sins and born into the family of God by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. (John 1:12; Acts 16:30-33, Rom 10:9-10; Eph 1:7; 2:8-9.
G. We believe in salvation by grace, through faith in the crucified, risen and glorified Christ. Salvation is a free gift, bestowed by God's grace and received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). A believer's salvation is secured by Christ alone (John 10:27-28).
H. We believe that (a) salvation is by grace, a free gift of God apart from works; (b) salvation requires repentance, a turning from one's own way to God's way; (c) salvation is through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; (d) all who receive Jesus Christ are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become the children of God; and (e) true salvation will be manifested by a changed life.
J. We believe the offer of salvation is God’s love-gift to all. Those who accept it by faith, apart from works, become new creatures in Christ. Because fallen humans are unable to save themselves, God, according to His own sovereign mercy, acts to save those who come to Him by grace through faith. God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the penalty of death in place of condemned humanity. Simply through believing the good news (gospel) that Christ died for his or her sins and then rose from the dead, a person can be forgiven of all sin, declared righteous by God, reborn into new life, and receive eternal life with God. See John 3:16, Rom 10:9-10; 1 Cor 15:1-5 and Eph 1:4-12.
K. We teach that salvation is wholly of God by grace on the basis of the redemption of Jesus Christ, the merit of His shed blood, and not on the basis of human merit or works (John 1:12; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8 10; 1 Peter 1:18 19).
L. We teach that justification before God is an act of God by which He declares righteous those who, through faith in Christ, repent of their sins and confess Him as sovereign Lord. This righteousness is apart from any virtue or work of man and involves the imputation of our sins to Christ and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us. By this means God is enabled to "be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
If you believe in Salvation by Works, you’ll have to write your own. I was unable to find any statements describing this belief.
Subjects covered in Statement of Belief: 1. God (only ONE god, God the Father, creator, attributes, etc.) Pg 5, Post #125 2. Standard of Authority: Bible (inspired, inerrant, Word of God, etc) Pg 1, Post #3 3. Jesus (virgin birth, atonement, substitute, life, death, resurrection; relationship to God, etc) Pg 8, Post #196 4. Holy Spirit (personality and work; indwelling, illumination, relationship to God) Pg 10, Posts #267-268 5. Man & Sin (fall of man, depravity, sin, free will/agency) Pg 11, Post 295 6. Angels (Elect & Evil; Holy & Fallen) Pg 24, Post #662 7. Salvation (repentance, regeneration/born again, adoption, saving faith, belief, grace, justification, etc) Pg 26, Post #716
The doctrines below will follow soon... 8. Believers Responsibility (good works, sanctification, security, conduct, evangelism; great commission) 9. The Church/Assembly, Ministers, Evangelism 10. Ordinances ( baptism & communion, Lord’s Day) 11. The Eternal State (Heaven & Hell) 12. Last Things/The Future (end of world, judgment, rewards, 2nd coming of Jesus, resurrection of the dead, etc)
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Post by sharon on Oct 26, 2009 22:14:32 GMT -5
"H. We believe that (a) salvation is by grace, a free gift of God apart from works; (b) salvation requires repentance, a turning from one's own way to God's way; (c) salvation is through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; (d) all who receive Jesus Christ are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become the children of God; and (e) true salvation will be manifested by a changed life."
This was the only one I could find that included what Jesus Himself said need be for remission of sins....and repentance is pretty big in Jesus' letter to the 7 churches as well.
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Post by JO on Oct 27, 2009 18:26:52 GMT -5
If the weight of historical evidence shifted, many well-established churches may have to disband due to a fundamental change in their belief statements.
Or, is there an option to change a belief statement?
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Post by sharon on Oct 27, 2009 19:15:41 GMT -5
I suspect that some statements of belief do sometimes change a little, but the basic part of it will remain pretty much the same.
Case in point....the Presbyterians are said to be Calvinistic...but when you study them you find that they are of the "reformed" Calvinism....they allow some allegorical interpretations but yet largely interpret literally the scriptures.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 27, 2009 21:44:28 GMT -5
One view:
Salvation is a process not of justification or legal pardon, but of reestablishing man's communion with God. This process of repairing the unity of human and divine is sometimes called "deification." This term does not mean that humans become gods but that humans join fully with God's divine life.
(http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/orthodoxy.htm)
Another view:
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior. (Catholic Catechism)
All souls will ultimately be conformed to the image of divine perfection in Christ. (Christian Universalism)
The Rosicrucian teaching is that each soul is an integral part of God, which is seeking to gain experience by repeated existences in gradually improving material bodies and that, therefore, it passes into and out of material existences many times; that each time it gathers a little more experience than it previously possessed and in time is nourished from nescience to omniscience--from impotence to omnipotence--by means of these experiences. (http://www.rosicrucian.com/differ.htm)
For a Buddhist salvation is reaching Nirvana. Nirvana is a transcendental, blissful, spiritual state of nothingness--you become a Buddha. To reach Nirvana you must follow the Noble Eightfold Path. The Noble Eightfold Path is: 1. Right Understanding: accepting the Four Noble Truths. (The existence of suffering; the cause of suffering; the end of suffering; and the end of pain.) 2. Right Resolve: renounce the pleasures of the body. Change your lifestyle so that you harm no living creatures and have kind thoughts for everyone. 3. Right Speech: do not gossip, lie or slander anyone. 4. Right Action: do not kill, steal or engage in an unlawful sexual act. 5. Right Occupation: avoid working at any job that could harm someone. 6. Right Effort: heroically work to eliminate evil from your life. Through your own effort develop good conduct and a clean mind. 7. Right Contemplation: make your self aware of your deeds, words and thoughts so that you can be free of desire and sorrow. 8. Right Meditation: train your mind to focus on a single object without wavering so as to develop a calm mind capable of concentration. Following the Noble Eightfold Path requires that a person do the above eight things. Salvation is through what a Buddhist does. It is through human works. (http://www.evangelical.us/buddhism.html)
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