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Post by ithascome on Oct 4, 2009 18:11:55 GMT -5
But yet your workers speak of the 2x2 way as being the only way that is right.
Seems to me that you have many ways that could be right.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 18:18:12 GMT -5
Many ways as in the sense that Paul and Peter could differ over the issue of Gentiles.
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Post by ChristIsEverything on Oct 4, 2009 18:22:10 GMT -5
Many ways as in the sense that Paul and Peter could differ over the issue of Gentiles. not for long, don't you remember Paul rebuking Peter? Then the council of elders wrote a letter to the gentiles in question. How does that equate to the so called "truth" fellowship?
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Post by ithascome on Oct 4, 2009 18:27:44 GMT -5
also how is that any different from the different Christian churches of today that differ in understanding? I know of some churches that have changed their doctrines ... based on the fact that they have received a better understanding... they have an ability to do that... with the 2x2s some believe this... some believe that... who knows what they believe. For myself I would want to be more sure.
But I have something more sure... I believe in Jesus... the body of Christ... what others believe is really not my concern... I can worship with anyone.. as long as they believe in Jesus Christ.
I could even worship with the 2x2s if they did not believe that they were the only thing that is right... I have a problem with that... it promotes self- righteous people. The church of Christ is another such group... as far as I have been able to gather. But one thing I have noticed about many of the 2x2s on this board ... they do not believe this.. so I think I can call them brothers and sisters... even though I would not feel comfortable worshiping in their meetings... I think they are the minority... but I am not for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2009 4:11:38 GMT -5
Well, if two Workers disagree over some point, that becomes evidence of division, inconsistency, lack of fellowship etc.. If Peter and Paul disagree that is a trifling thing which is quickly sorted out.
nb Exes back then certainly took note of divisions and arguments amongst the apostles!
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Post by sharon on Oct 5, 2009 7:14:15 GMT -5
Many ways as in the sense that Paul and Peter could differ over the issue of Gentiles. But Peter was proven wrong! Paul withstood him to his face. Later Paul wrote that there had been some that had taught false doctrine. This is a catchy example, Bert! Dangerous in my opinion...for Peter was wrong...James and the other brethren proved him to be wrong.
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Post by sharon on Oct 5, 2009 7:17:38 GMT -5
Well, if two Workers disagree over some point, that becomes evidence of division, inconsistency, lack of fellowship etc.. If Peter and Paul disagree that is a trifling thing which is quickly sorted out. nb Exes back then certainly took note of divisions and arguments amongst the apostles! It doesn't read it was the "exes" who took note...IT was Paul! He took such note he went all the way to Jerusalem to sort it out! It was that serious of enough issue! The "membership" as a whole had to come to some conclusion and they concluded that it was false doctrine and it had NOTHING to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ! Too bad we can't get that through our collective heads that-are-buried-under-the sand in the truth's fellowship. What a shame!
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Post by ithascome on Oct 5, 2009 10:58:33 GMT -5
thanks for taking the monkey of the exes back... ;D
Again thank you for pointing that out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2009 14:23:10 GMT -5
Matt 10 wrote: Because "what Cherie believes" is irrelevant to the subject under discussion, which is what the 2x2s believe. I fail to see anything hard about stating what one believes about the Bible... or one's selected Standard of Authority. I have made it easy - which of the selections describe the reader's belief? Cherie May I say what a very wise response. I could respond along the lines that I would hope that I would have the honour not to ask someone else to provide something that I wasn’t prepared to myself ...........however what I will point out is that you were a 2x2 longer than me and therefore given how easy you claim it would be to write down a statement of 2x2 beliefs, I can’t help but wonder why you don’t simply write down a statement of what you believed as a 2x2? Surely your view is as valid as that of any other 2x2? Or perhaps you didn’t know what the 2x2’s believed in which case why would you expect it of anyone else? Of course those of us who are prepared to admit it know that the adherents of 2x2ism no more subscribe to a single set of beliefs (at least in relation to most of the topics you list) than the adherents of Christianity do and therefore I can’t help but ponder the wisdom of seeking out something that we all know doesn’t exist. Regards Matt10
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Post by ilylo on Oct 5, 2009 14:32:07 GMT -5
Hmmm... it almost sounds like you're suggesting that the 2x2s have no beliefs.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 5, 2009 15:22:46 GMT -5
To Matt 10: All you did was say the same thing again in a different manner.
Again, I reject your suggestion/s, and plan to go about establishing the 2x2 doctrine on this thread in the manner I have started.
Further, if any of your future posts on this thread do not stick closely to the OP topic, don't expect me to respond to them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2009 15:45:33 GMT -5
Cherie - fear not, I post here not for the purpose of eliciting responses but rather to help promote wisdom and expose folly. Regards Matt10
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Post by ilylo on Oct 5, 2009 15:57:21 GMT -5
Cherie - fear not, I post here not for the purpose of eliciting responses but rather to help promote wisdom and expose folly. Regards Matt10 You need to work on your aim.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 5, 2009 16:35:37 GMT -5
Well anyway I found this info on the following site... maybe this will start the discussion in the right direction. It seems to me to be pretty factual. www.religioustolerance.org/chr_2x2.htmBeliefs:They follow the instructions recorded in the Gospel of Matthew: Matthew 10:7: "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'" (NKJ) According to the Religious Movements article on the 2 x 2's: They apparently ignore the concept of the Trinity and believe that God, the Father, is a single deity, undivided, and not three persons. Jesus is viewed as the son of God, a being separate from the Father. The Holy Spirit is seen as a force or power emanating from God, not a person within the Trinity. 20 Their beliefs about salvation are slightly ambiguous. We have heard two mutually exclusive concepts: Some ex-2X2s who had been long-term members state that only individuals who hear the gospel from the 2X2 workers can be saved...and then, only if they join the faith group, continue to be a member, in good standing, live according to 2X2 standards of lifestyle and appearance, and faithfully attend 2X2 events. They can lose their salvation at any time. A person's salvation status is only determined at death. Only their group, who total about 0.001% of the human race, will be saved. This implies that very few humans will go to heaven when they die. 99.999% will "go to a lost eternity" i.e. to Hell. Other sources state that their teachings are identical to those of other conservative Christian faith groups: that salvation is given to anyone who repents of their sins and trusts in Jesus as Lord and Savior. We suspect that the former belief is accurate, and that the latter is a cover story given to outsiders. We have been unsuccessful in attempting to verify this. They disagree about relationships in heaven. Some believe that they will recognize each other in heaven; others argue that everyone will have new, celestial bodies "and will not recognize or even want to recognize our friends and loved ones." Within some fields, members who marry divorced people, or marry spouses outside of the faith, who leave the faith group, or who sow discord are often excommunicated. They have a slogan: "the ministers without a home, and the church in the home."
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Post by ithascome on Oct 5, 2009 16:44:34 GMT -5
Practices:
"Two by Twos" are a high demand faith group which requires a firm commitment from its members. They have two classes of membership: Members (called Brothers in Christ, Children of God, Friends, Saints, Sisters in Christ, Truthers) and Ministers (called Brother Workers, Handmaidens, Laborers, Servants, Sister Workers, Workers) Full-time ministers donate all of their assets to charities or the poor. They take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, and are supported financially by the general membership. They lead an ascetic lifestyle. They evangelize in pairs - usually with an older minister in authority. Members often have the ministers board with them for periods of time; members often give the ministers the use of their cars. "...smoking, drinking, dancing, attending movies and watching television are condemned." Rules are gradually relaxing. Television sets and computers are being used by an increasing percentage of the membership. A state in the U.S. or province in Canada is under the control of a single male overseer. Each state or province is divided into a number of "fields." There are two workers active in each field; most are women.
In English speaking countries, they use the King James Version of the Bible exclusively. They do not publish religious material, with the exception of a hymn book. They rely on person-to-person contact to communicate the gospel. The group meets in house churches of up to 20 members. Each house church is presided over by a male bishop or local elder. One source describes a typical house church meeting on Sunday morning: the service is led by the "presiding member," the man of the house where the meeting is held. He sits facing the congregation and asks for suggestions for a hymn the hymn is sung, without accompaniment individual members deliver extemporaneous prayers; "none...refer to personal problems, material needs or current events." attendees of all ages describe the meanings derived from their private Bible study, and its effect on their lives. The presiding member gives his testimony last. another hymn is sung. They engage in the ritual of the Lord's Supper in which bread is broken and passed among the congregation. Grape juice is shared from a common cup. The leader says a closing prayer. The meeting ends. No program was distributed; no sermon given; no collection taken; no announcements were made. They also meet mid-week for Bible study. They celebrate two ordinances: adult baptism by total immersion and the Lord's Supper. The taking of the "emblems" (bread and wine) is celebrated weekly. They do not recognize baptisms performed by other denominations. Celebration of Easter and Christmas is not encouraged. Members dress plainly, with little jewelry and no makeup. Men are all clean-shaven with short hair. Many women do not cut their hair, but wear it collected in buns at the back of their head.
They typically wear dresses. The wearing of pants, and the cutting of small amounts of hair is frequently debated in some fields. Marriages are performed by secular authorities, as nobody in the group is authorized by state or provincial governments to perform marriage ceremonies. 2X2 members are subjected to strong discipline. Members who deviate significantly from expected norms of behavior may have privileges removed. One event is described where members were met with disapproval because they had purchased a television set. They lost the privilege of holding Sunday morning meetings in their home, they were not allowed to speak or pray at meetings, they were not allowed to take communion; they were not allowed to give donations to the workers. More serious transgressions can lead to shunning and excommunication.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 5, 2009 16:48:40 GMT -5
Noticed that...They did not say anything about Conventions... or Gospel meetings.
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Post by sharon on Oct 5, 2009 18:00:32 GMT -5
"We suspect that the former belief is accurate, and that the latter is a cover story given to outsiders. We have been unsuccessful in attempting to verify this."
Ithascome, the real problem is that both and many other beliefs are accurate...depends on how long you've been in the fellowship, where you were raised in the fellowship, how many convs. you go to, how many gospel mtgs. you go to. How many workers' sermons go over your collective heads....and most of all, depends ont he individual and how that person interprets what they may or may not know about the Bible.
I'm sorry but that is the truth!
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Post by ithascome on Oct 5, 2009 18:18:40 GMT -5
From what I have been able to glean from all this discussion is that the 2x2s do not want a written belief statement because it would cramp their style,so to speak... maybe if they were to come up with a written form they would lose just too much membership. This may be another reason for not doing it.
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Post by ilylo on Oct 5, 2009 18:24:58 GMT -5
They are afraid to write down their beliefs because they know they cannot validate them as being in accordance with the Bible. Even Jason demonstrated that in the Great Debate with Zorro a couple of years back.
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Post by sharon on Oct 5, 2009 18:35:09 GMT -5
From what I have been able to glean from all this discussion is that the 2x2s do not want a written belief statement because it would cramp their style,so to speak... maybe if they were to come up with a written form they would lose just too much membership. This may be another reason for not doing it. I really don't think many honestly know what it is they believe other then that the truth's fellowship is the only true way. There are a few here and there who have an understanding about Jesus being our Saviour and that He was/is/will be more then just a man, etc. I don't want to disparage those who really know this but there are too many to reliant on the only true way, the workers to lead them to eternity by the hand and I say this because they get all bent out of shape with fear of being lost in the numbers, when it looks like there isn't enough workers to go around. I know I was one of them that worried a lot about the lessening number of able workers...but I'm learning that God seems to have different thoughts in this thing. The reliance on the workers is crippling for the whole fellowship when one steps back and looks at it. The workers are the ones who need to teach a "belief statement" that will enable the converts to look to Jesus and stand with Him on their own 2 feet. I mentioned once before about the beginning workers would get the converts, establish a little home mtg. with the new converts...then they'd go on off somewhere and start another mission....and the chances of seeing that new church in the home again in a short time was nil. That little church had to learn to stand on its' own two feet, the brotherhood developed and they took care of one another...but some of these mtgs. I've been in have been cold and unfeeling...clichy! The workers need to let or force the little home mtgs. learn to stand on their own 2 feet. And as Nathan mentioned, the friends need to quit bugging the workers all the time! JMO
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Post by lin on Oct 5, 2009 19:30:15 GMT -5
Are you having trouble getting these people to jump through your hoops Cherie?
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Post by ithascome on Oct 5, 2009 20:35:22 GMT -5
It looks Great on the surface... if only you could take away that pesky human nature.
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Post by sharon on Oct 5, 2009 20:51:47 GMT -5
Nathan, you're one of the few who perhaps knows what Spirit-led means...honestly....I sat and listened to a number of testimonies yesterday and wondered what really nearly all of them believed....Same people, same testimonies, time after time...but I'm left wondering what it is they really believe. I'm saddened more and more and more.....I want every human being to know Jesus is our Saviour and I want them to Love the Lord our God with all their hearts, with all their minds, withall their souls and with all their strength. And to love their neighbors as themself. It really is a light burden and an easy yoke!
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 5, 2009 21:22:09 GMT -5
From what I have been able to glean from all this discussion is that the 2x2s do not want a written belief statement because it would cramp their style,so to speak... maybe if they were to come up with a written form they would lose just too much membership. This may be another reason for not doing it. I think that you're incorrect in your assumption. The belief system is within the bible, and the reason that they do not have a doctrine, is because it is based on ones relationship with God. How can they have a specific doctrine, when everyone's relationship is different. I must say that I am not as old as many on this message board, but I have been through many experiences in the fellowship. I have professed twice, been baptized once, had a baby without being married, did not speak in some meetings as i was asked not to, but I was the one able to make the decision when I could again and was ready to speak at larger gatherings. I am now marrying a man, that is not my child's father, and was engaged to him before he professed. I am currently living with my fiancee, who is now professing.. (we will be married within the month), and I am currently going to meetings, speaking in them, and taking the emblems. I did not speak for a while because of my own conviction, not because someone asked me not to. I still love the fellowship very much, although I do know that there are some people that are very fake within the fellowship. My circumstances are different than any other person, and therefore no one can tell me what my relationship is with God. For someone else, they may have a different relationship. So according to all of your chit chat about what is allowed and is not, I am living proof that it is not as all of you are trying to say that it is. I have also heard the overseer of the state I am currently living in talk about how someone very close to him was a very devout catholic who loved and served God with all of her heart. He believes that through her relationship with God that she perhaps is saved. He says that he does not know, as it is Gods judgment, as it is with everyone else. So just some of my experiences for you to ponder...
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Post by ithascome on Oct 5, 2009 21:30:17 GMT -5
If that be the case than why go to meetings/church at all? I believe that... I just do not believe that I have to be a member of a church. I can have a relationship with God without all the frustration. But if I do go to a church (and I often do) I would want to know upfront what it is that they believe. If they have a written doctrine or at least a belief statement I can decide if I want to fellowship with them. I am not aware of any other church group that refuses to have something written to give to people if they should wish to visit. Most churches have a website these days. The website is not so much for the members but it is also to tells people what they believe. These websites tell people when their meeting time is and what days they meet. The problem with the 2x2s is they do not wish for outsiders to meet with them. They only want people to go to the Gospel meetings and those times and locations are to be determined. This is why the 2x2s are so hidden. If I wanted to meet with them there is no way that I could even do that unless I knew one of the friends in that area. GIC corrected someone in another thread for mentioning that the 2x2s were like a secret society... I tell you one thing even fraternities have websites and advertise their meeting times. Even home churches have ways to be contacted (see following link) homechurch.meetup.com/
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Pink
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Post by Pink on Oct 5, 2009 21:30:42 GMT -5
No way! Are you living in sin with your fiancee and still able to take part in meetings? Is that part of your life kept secret or do the workers know? The elder knows? The people you fellowship with know? Just curious. And very at that.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 5, 2009 21:43:00 GMT -5
If that be the case than why go to meetings/church at all? I believe that... I just do not believe that I have to be a member of a church. I can have a relationship with God without all the frustration. To answer your question, I go to meetings because I love the meetings, I love the people, and I love God. I think that fellowship is an integral part of serving the Lord, so we can keep ourselves on track. Whenever I do not go to meetings, I feel rather lost and without direction. As it has been mentioned before, "where two or more are gathered in my name." I truly believe that God dwells in the meetings. I believe that it keeps me on track to continue to do what I need to do. The first time I brought my fiancee to the meetings, I hadn't gone in quite some time. He was raised catholic, and was attending a different church at the time. He told me after meeting, that he could feel God's presence, and that he needed to continue to go whether I did or not. That was very refreshing. To answer your question pink. Yes the meeting knows that we live together, and that we are planning a wedding soon. We recently moved to the area. We are rather broke, so it just makes sense to combine expenses, rather than paying two of everything. We have a unique situation, as everyone does, based on past and current events. Every situation needs to be approached differently, as I had stated before.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 5, 2009 22:39:56 GMT -5
Are you having trouble getting these people to jump through your hoops Cherie? What are your beliefs concerning the Bible, Lin?
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