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Post by Annan on Dec 2, 2009 14:39:59 GMT -5
Just finished Atheist Universe by David Mills. It was amusing to read the arguments for Christianity that once came out of my mouth. While I do not believe in the Christian god or a deity that intentionally created the universe, I can't help hold on to the idea that there is something that links all existence. In fact I know there is. Trees communicate chemically with each other warning of danger. They also communicate chemically with the bugs and insects that pollinate or attack them. Humans communicate with each other through pheromones. Who's to say all life doesn't communicate this way? A great book on this subject is Jacobson's Organ by Lyall Watson. Of course anything by Lyall Watson is a great read in my opinion. Can anyone suggest further reading for me along these lines? And to rational... Thank You.
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Post by Rob O on Dec 2, 2009 17:17:51 GMT -5
David Bohm, Wholeness and the Implicate Order. It won't be light reading.
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Post by rational on Dec 2, 2009 19:37:15 GMT -5
Trees communicate chemically with each other warning of danger. Is that why I saw the red maples running across the field when I started my chainsaw?!? Do you have any references on this? I do hope you aren't going to bring up the work of Backster. I see. I like too think of communicating as 2 way but I know that does not have to be the case. To have an interchange, as of ideas. Plants excreting a chemical that is poisonous to some insects is not really communicating any more than a rock in a stream that blocks the flow is communicating with the water. I could point you to some that are almost exactly unlike that! I did find A Natural History of the Senses by Diane Ackerman interesting. You are more than welcome!
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Post by Annan on Dec 2, 2009 21:09:16 GMT -5
Plants excreting a chemical that is poisonous to some insects is not really communicating any more than a rock in a stream that blocks the flow is communicating with the water.Understood, but that is not what I was very poorly trying to convey. Lyall Watson in Lifetide talks about certain insects invading trees leading to those trees producing a chemical reaction that seemed to trigger nearby trees to produce the same chemical reaction even though the other trees had not yet been invaded by the insects. It is thought therefore that the trees are somehow "communicating" by chemical signals. That's what I meant by warning the other trees of danger. I can't quote from the book right now because my son ran off with it and I never seem (no matter how much badgering I do) to get my books returned. He is here right now and planning to run off with Atheist Universe. He just said tonight that he has been an Atheist for nine years now. Thank you for the book reference. I put it on my Amazon wish list for January, as I already spent my book allowance this month.
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Post by rational on Dec 3, 2009 13:22:42 GMT -5
Plants excreting a chemical that is poisonous to some insects is not really communicating any more than a rock in a stream that blocks the flow is communicating with the water.Understood, but that is not what I was very poorly trying to convey. Lyall Watson in Lifetide talks about certain insects invading trees leading to those trees producing a chemical reaction that seemed to trigger nearby trees to produce the same chemical reaction even though the other trees had not yet been invaded by the insects. It is thought therefore that the trees are somehow "communicating" by chemical signals. That's what I meant by warning the other trees of danger. I have a huge problem with Watson and his experimental methods. As you know he presented the 100th monkey idea. Here is an net publication that looks into his research: www.uhh.hawaii.edu/~ronald/HMP.htmFor lack of a better term, he appears to have made it up from whole cloth. Just tell him he needs to look at it with a very skeptical eye! Think about the moon and why, since it is always in the sky, it would have any more gravitational attraction when the sun is shining on the side towards the earth that it would at any other time. The moon is always out there and it is always about the same distance from the earth. Its gravitational effect is less that of a hat you might wear. [quote[Thank you for the book reference. I put it on my Amazon wish list for January, as I already spent my book allowance this month. [/quote]You are welcome
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Post by Annan on Dec 3, 2009 15:34:22 GMT -5
Think about the moon and why, since it is always in the sky, it would have any more gravitational attraction when the sun is shining on the side towards the earth that it would at any other time. The moon is always out there and it is always about the same distance from the earth.I've been thinking about that a lot lately, actually. At the moment I feel a bit lost about what to do with all my "witch" books. They have simply lost their appeal. I rather thought somehow that Atheism would be a bit lonely feeling... if that makes any sense. But I find it is rather interesting. It forces me to a step back and look at the world without made-up or pretend expectations. It is rather liberating on one hand, yet leaves me without fantasy, which is something that was a big part of my life. It's one thing to hope and dream and another to realize and accept exact what one's hopes and dreams are based upon. It's certainly not a bad place to be, just different and a bit unfamiliar. I am sitting here waiting for someone to comment on what I will believe tomorrow or after the next book I read. The way I see it is that there always seems to be that one enlighted moment that, when you are ready for it, opens the door and enables you to see where the path you have already been walking has actually lead. Teachers open the door. You enter by yourself. ~ Chinese Proverb
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Dec 3, 2009 23:11:19 GMT -5
I hope and pray that one day you will be my sister in christ just as I hope and pray for rational. I love you both anyway regardless. Reading is good for the soul.
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Post by rational on Dec 4, 2009 1:47:01 GMT -5
I hope and pray that one day you will be my sister in christ just as I hope and pray for rational. I love you both anyway regardless. Reading is good for the soul. Well, thanks Shushy.
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Post by Annan on Dec 4, 2009 11:16:38 GMT -5
I hope and pray that one day you will be my sister in christ just as I hope and pray for rational. I love you both anyway regardless. Reading is good for the soul. Thank you, Shushy. It is my wish that your beliefs bring you joy always.
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Post by outnumbered on Dec 4, 2009 19:40:30 GMT -5
Think about the moon and why, since it is always in the sky, it would have any more gravitational attraction when the sun is shining on the side towards the earth that it would at any other time. The moon is always out there and it is always about the same distance from the earth.I've been thinking about that a lot lately, actually. At the moment I feel a bit lost about what to do with all my "witch" books. They have simply lost their appeal. I rather thought somehow that Atheism would be a bit lonely feeling... if that makes any sense. But I find it is rather interesting. It forces me to a step back and look at the world without made-up or pretend expectations. It is rather liberating on one hand, yet leaves me without fantasy, which is something that was a big part of my life. It's one thing to hope and dream and another to realize and accept exact what one's hopes and dreams are based upon. It's certainly not a bad place to be, just different and a bit unfamiliar. I am sitting here waiting for someone to comment on what I will believe tomorrow or after the next book I read. The way I see it is that there always seems to be that one enlighted moment that, when you are ready for it, opens the door and enables you to see where the path you have already been walking has actually lead. Teachers open the door. You enter by yourself. ~ Chinese Proverb While atheism felt liberating to me, it also caused some anguish. Realizing that there is no inherent meaning in the universe is a bittersweet thing. I have no meaning, but I also have the freedom to make my own life meaning.
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Post by Annan on Dec 5, 2009 10:43:46 GMT -5
While atheism felt liberating to me, it also caused some anguish. Realizing that there is no inherent meaning in the universe is a bittersweet thing. I have no meaning, but I also have the freedom to make my own life meaning.
Accepting death "as is" was the biggest and best thing that my brand of Paganism/Atheism did for me. Ridding my life of after-life worry and guilt was a tremendous burden lifted off my shoulders. Everything that exists is changed/recycled. I like that. Yes, at times I have to wonder about the "life" I possess and where it goes, but when I look at not owning life personally but that life is a whole that all exits within then things make much more sense.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Dec 5, 2009 23:37:19 GMT -5
[quote author=annan board=members thread=15115
Ridding my life of after-life worry and guilt was a tremendous burden lifted off my shoulders.
Annan, I dont understand this sentence. Why do you feel worry or guilt about after life? Its not something I have thought about in that context or experienced.
Everything that exists is changed/recycled. I like that. Yes, at times I have to wonder about the "life" I possess and where it goes, but when I look at not owning life personally but that life is a whole that all exits within then things make much more sense.[/quote]
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Post by Annan on Dec 6, 2009 10:54:23 GMT -5
Annan, I dont understand this sentence. Why do you feel worry or guilt about after life? Its not something I have thought about in that context or experienced.
Perhaps I didn't word that the way I should have. My parents' brand of Christianity was doom and gloom and everything other than breathing was a sin that was going to pay for. I used to beat myself up all the time for a wrong thought or desire, and worried myself sick that I was going to burn in hell for all eternity.
Freedom for me these days means holding myself responsible for my thought, word, and deed, and realizing their is no judge and jury other than me, myself, and I... and, of course, the laws of the land.
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Post by izzi on Dec 6, 2009 14:16:36 GMT -5
Annan, you might want to try getting hold of SHAMANS, HEALERS AND MEDICINE MEN by Holger Kalweit. I have a 1992 edition, Shambhala Publications. Somewhere in it he mentions this inter-being communication, something that has fascinated me for years. Also read up on morphic resonance.
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Post by izzi on Dec 6, 2009 14:27:53 GMT -5
Too weird that you say your witchy books have lost their appeal - I have felt like that for a while - many little things that had meaning for me has been dissolved in the light of just living.
I think we do not see enough of the total magic in the obvious. It may seem sentimental and cliched to talk about the miracle in a dewdrop - but look at tiny drops on a leaf, bound by cohesive forces - it is awesome! Maggots are awesome! Flies are fairies! Vultures are angels!
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Post by izzi on Dec 6, 2009 15:04:40 GMT -5
After reading rational's link to debunking the 100th monkey ...er...business, I realize that I understood that to be morphic resonance. Maybe there is more morphic resonance elsewhere on the net, but when I'm done typing here all I wanna do is drink tea and go to bed.
All that said, rational...and with respect to Mr Amundson's good work, Lyall Watson may still be right. And what about the tennis ball? I remember reading that years ago. Is he lying, you think?
Think about it this way (I must warn you, I am dizzy with tiredness and unable to think) - when one of my cats dared to pee behind the front door, a full 50% of the others learned to do the same, within hours.
The two young males also poo-ed there. It had become a veritable latrine. They unlearnt the habit most abruptly one day when I came home to find their scheit there once again, grabbed them and vigorously rubbed their faces, chins, necks and chests in their excrement. They are not psychologically scarred by this, I am happy to report. They still love me. They still scheit. They just don't do it in the house. Nor did any of the others, ever again.
So maybe there is truth in all this. Julius and Plato (boy cats) said this to one another (psychically, because we all know they can't talk):
"She's got the sh-s with us!" "Yeah. If this continues we may not be fed."
The other cats must have picked this conversation up psychically, because we all know they can't talk. It is called the 3rd cat phenomenon.
This study is open to other cat researchers.
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Post by Annan on Dec 6, 2009 18:58:12 GMT -5
Lyall Watson talks about species having what is called thought transference. He tells the story of a particular kind of bird in an English town that learned to peck through the lids of milk bottles that were delivered to houses. Once several birds learned to peck through the cardboard, within a week all the birds in town learned to do so. The milk company had to resort to using metal lids.
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Post by Annan on Dec 6, 2009 19:02:44 GMT -5
izzi: My witch books have lost their appeal because behind the facade I was always hoping for a deity of sorts. It was hard to be Pagan and not attribute all the how's and why's to a willful source. From an Atheist standpoint, I am having to re-examine how my magick works and why. I still firmly believe in Reiki as there are experiences I have had in that arena that can't be shaken loose. I simply need to walk a different path to get there these days. Thanks for the book reference. I always check out book references. I rather think my husband could retire on the money I've spent on books (and crystals and essential oils) over the years.
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2009 23:47:33 GMT -5
Annan, you might want to try getting hold of SHAMANS, HEALERS AND MEDICINE MEN by Holger Kalweit. I have a 1992 edition, Shambhala Publications. Somewhere in it he mentions this inter-being communication, something that has fascinated me for years. Also read up on morphic resonance. Morphic resonance is a term made up by Rupert Sheldrake. It is right up there with other terms that have been invented and then presented as if there was some data behind them. You should read up on it in case someone asks you about it.
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Post by rational on Dec 7, 2009 0:22:42 GMT -5
After reading rational's link to debunking the 100th monkey ...er...business, I realize that I understood that to be morphic resonance. Maybe there is more morphic resonance elsewhere on the net, but when I'm done typing here all I wanna do is drink tea and go to bed. There is: www.skepdic.com/morphicres.htmlIn short, yes. I think he made it up. Are there any examples of these balls? Have there been any reports since June 25 2008? They didn't learn to to anything. They smelled the waste and added to it. It is what animals do. You punished them and they stopped. You are aware, I assume, that the 1000 th monkey idea has been researched and found to be wanting in regards to supportable data.
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Post by Rob O on Dec 7, 2009 0:25:05 GMT -5
Pardon my ignorance but what's the 1000th monkey idea?
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Post by rational on Dec 7, 2009 3:22:53 GMT -5
Pardon my ignorance but what's the 1000th monkey idea? It is really the convergence of two things. 1) an extra '0' added by me 2) a theory put forth by Lyall Watson. Here is a good starting point: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth-monkey_effect
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Post by Rob O on Dec 7, 2009 3:37:31 GMT -5
Well, that's a different twist. I'd heard the story of the spread of sweet potato washing but without the so-called effect ie. a straight-forward dissemination of a new behaviour in a population, which in itself interested me because I'm intrigued by the intelligence of many animals.
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Post by izzi on Dec 7, 2009 9:03:53 GMT -5
LOL...all of this makes me laugh. I can't take anything toooo seriously. But rational - about the cats - I only punished two of them. Why did the whole lot stop? I promise you, the same thing happens with grade 7 boys. They are all wickedly disobedient and disrespectful. But punish one and the others will be a little easier to control. And please don't tell me they 'heard' about the punishment, because all teachers know these kids do not have ears. It has to be psychic.
I do believe in the 3rd cat thing. Or the fifth boy phenomenon. (humans are slower to learn)
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Post by rational on Dec 7, 2009 11:54:02 GMT -5
LOL...all of this makes me laugh. I can't take anything toooo seriously. But rational - about the cats - I only punished two of them. Why did the whole lot stop? I promise you, the same thing happens with grade 7 boys. They are all wickedly disobedient and disrespectful. But punish one and the others will be a little easier to control. And please don't tell me they 'heard' about the punishment, because all teachers know these kids do not have ears. It has to be psychic. I do believe in the 3rd cat thing. Or the fifth boy phenomenon. (humans are slower to learn) You have already demonstrated your disdain for actual data. It appears you would rather promote myths than look at reproducible data. That would make it a belief, your belief. If at sometime in the future you want to look at facts rather than anecdotal stories I would be happy too discuss this with you.
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Post by Annan on Dec 7, 2009 13:43:23 GMT -5
You wouldn't be Jason's twin brother would you? Sometimes I think I believe certain things because want to believe. In fact I know I do so. Right now I am trying to reason how Reiki works. There are experiences with Reiki I have had that science has yet to explain which leaves me hoping for... well... I'm just not sure.
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Post by izzi on Dec 7, 2009 18:27:41 GMT -5
Oh, get over yourself, rational! I have just given you data! So-called scientists are very fond of the disdainful little term 'anecdotal'.
It amazes me that 'scientists' cannot admit that 'reproducible' is almost NEVER possible when we are dealing with living beings! Surely you know that!
Research method is fine for determining outcomes of events where all the variables can be controlled. IMO, the moment you throw a human or an animal into a hypothesis, you are dancing on a tightrope between individual idiosyncrasies, psychic influences, inter-species and inter-being subtle communication and whether the said animal is having a bad day!
I don't think scientific method should have the place of honour it seems to occupy in the mind of the common man. But...common man? Is there such a thing? Mmm...
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Post by izzi on Dec 7, 2009 18:28:42 GMT -5
It is so easy to say that Lyall Watson made up the story of the ball. But why would he?
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