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Post by jhjmr on Nov 29, 2008 11:12:13 GMT -5
Since the court has ruled on no more intervention for the family and the four children, you would think this would be a happy occasion. It is, that the four children are very happy and doing extremely well in school and now have some stability in their lives again. They express their love for their parents constantly.
Now, the family is being gossiped about again, that they have domestic abuse in the home. This is not true, but has spread throughout the Mi. area. It is rumored that the family has even split up. This is an endless lie to try and hurt this family for any excuse that anyone can imagine. This family has been completely shunned by nearly every single person that is of the faith. People that have been at the home for endless meals, missions and etc. The only thing that even involves this family in the faith, are the endless lies that are repeated by members of the faith.
The elder grandparents have been deeply hurt. They also are shunned by the faith. The workers have not been to their home once since before the court had the final hearing. The last visit was to present them with a letter, that was full of lies and gossip, and to tell them that the meeting was being removed from there home. The grandfather, 91, fell from a ladder and was hospitalized with a broken pelvic. Not a single visitornor concern. The people that attended their meeting in the home, were told to go elsewhere. They never visit or call. Workers that spend endless days and time at the home, have completely ignored them. They have meetings in the home Sun. with immediate family, as the grandfather is not driving anymore. They can not go anywhere else. They were told they would have to go about 30 miles to a meeting, if they wanted to go to meeting. The overseer arranged to be in their area for this year. The grandparents had not one thing to do with the incidents that their family had been accused of. They had to accept the hurt and worry about the family and their grandchildren and just hoped all would work out. That was not acceptable to the overseer. Very few have even called to see how this elder couple is doing. So, they are spending their last years, hurt deeply and just beyond words to explain what has happened and why.
It is very troubling to see this take place with what the grandparents taught and thought about the fellowship. How can a family that was involved in a faith, be so ridiculed and hated? So, so far the aftermath of this horrible saga has not ended!
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Post by peridot on Nov 29, 2008 11:17:02 GMT -5
Rest in peace. God knows what He is doing. The grandparents have always been very sincere.....I believe God is awakening them to a better understanding...and also the parents. I haven't seen any of them in 20+ years, I wish them the very best. Judy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2008 11:18:05 GMT -5
I don't know anything about this case, but the essence of the "system" reeks from your and others posts. In matters of concern or controversy, the system must dominate. Unfortunately that system is not Christ.
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Post by peridot on Nov 29, 2008 11:23:47 GMT -5
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Post by degem on Nov 29, 2008 14:26:53 GMT -5
Personally speaking, I am not in the know about what is happening in regards to the family and children, etc. or why the meeting was removed from the grandparents home. So I can't say much at all because I don't have the info but it seems to me to be a harsh and hurtful thing to have occured to these older folks. If I am remembering correctly, didn't the grandparents celebrate their 66th wedding anniversary not too many months ago?
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Post by peridot on Nov 29, 2008 14:35:57 GMT -5
How many years, and years did they have meeting in their home? How many hundreds or more workers have spent time in their home? How many gospel meetings did this family open their home up for? How many friends have been in their home for meeting and fellowship? If you are familiar with Ilylo's website, they could be referred to as the 'superior saints' www.thelyingtruth.info/?f=bel&id=saintclasses They need to know that God still loves each one no matter what men say or do (F&W's).
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Post by degem on Nov 29, 2008 14:37:33 GMT -5
If its true that they are being shunned, that definitely is not right.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2008 15:05:54 GMT -5
Just some more expendable numbers ! Very sad.
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Post by Sharon on Nov 29, 2008 15:43:24 GMT -5
Seems I remember some family member begging for mercy for the older couple when this all begin to go down. This is a very sad case and I don't know what to say other then loyalty has a lot going for it and if this is true, then it's more then a crying shame! These things like this make me want to cry "Lord Jesus, come quickly!"
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Post by peridot on Nov 29, 2008 15:51:57 GMT -5
When they meet their Maker, their faith will be in Him, not the 2x2 system. God has a way of drawing the faithful home.
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Post by jhjmr on Nov 30, 2008 8:07:30 GMT -5
The elderly grandparents had meeting in their home for 30 plus years. The very overseer in Michigan now had missions in the basement of their home. They were at the hospital with the overseer the very night his father passed away.
The letter that was brought to them by the overseer with gossip and lies when they were told that the meeting would be removed, was written about a 90th birthday party for the grandfather. The overseer nor any worker, was at the party. Just many friends of the faith and others. There were incidents mentioned in the letter that were outright lies. The party was very nice and everyone seemed to enjoy themselves. But, lies were told and the overseer used these lies to remove the meeting. It made no difference when it was said that it was lies.
Just wanted to make sure that the truth is told about everything once.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2008 8:26:56 GMT -5
I don't know about the truth of jhjmr's story, but the procedure allegedly followed by the overseer is one that I have seen repeated many times.
Someone gets deemed expendable for some reason (usually seen as not loyal to the workers) and then a very deliberate process of untruths and twisted stories are used to remove the person(s) from a meeting or right out of the meetings altogether. Then they are systematically shunned by the friends and workers whether they are still in the meetings or not.
10 years ago I would not have believed this possible. Since then though I have seen this happen on several occasions where I have known both sides of the story and found the church side very dishonest and prejudicial. I have known of workers who actually go around to the friends and advise them to stay away from certain people.
The system of excising people is very efficient because it is all done in the dark. Open hearings (as per Matt18) is completely anethema because it would expose the hatred and dishonesty. Many of these cases could not withstand the light of day.
When church problems have to be dealt with in the dark, it is the sign of an immature and dysfunctional church.
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 30, 2008 10:05:33 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing, I find the post EASY to believe because of what has happened to others and even to ourselves in the 2x2 church. Yes, it is VERY painful, but for some of us it takes experiences like that to help us focus on "where" our salvation comes from. It does NOT come from any "church' or it's members or ministers. Llike , many others, we were "guilty" of giving all we could of our efforts , love , time, meals, home etc. etc. to the "church" of the f&w. Then, God in His mercy saw fit for us to experience BIG disappointments in the church and for very bewildering and unbelievable "events", we found ourselves exed. WOW, we could hardly believe it, but we felt we had followed convictions given to us by God. We have been , since that time, VERY thankful for the disappointments that we experienced to help us focus on Jesus , the truth and the way. I feel sad for many who go through their whole life ( NOT disappointed in their "church") putting their faith and hope of salvation in a mere group or system of doing things right, pleasing to God ,even. The disappointments of the 2x2 church provided us with good lessons to put faith in GOD, not in man, and I praise God for that. I feel for these precious people , who are learning these HARD lessons , and at their age, it must be even harder. God is no man's debtor , and like He has done so many times before will draw near to comfort and reassure them that , indeed, they are HIS and NO man can take them out of HIS hand. I would encourage anyone in the vicinity to try and be there for these people, to help them in this difficult time, pray with them and reassure them that GOD understands, and even though , like Joseph understood, "you meant it to me for evil, but God meant it for my good". We wrote the following letter to the "friends" in our area during our 'difficult" period of being exed. Dear Friends, We write this letter with heavy hearts. As you are aware, both the meetings have been removed from our home now. (none left in Birch River) It has also been abundantly and painfully made clear to us that our fellowship is not welcome. That hurts, but we are thankful the Lord draws near to comfort, and that NO man can pluck His sheep out of His hand. If we have said anything to you , in meeting or out, that is not scripturrally correct, please come forward to us personally , and we can search the scriptures together. Unrelenting accusations have come across our pathway, and we simply do not have the emotional strength to keep refuting them.
We have made many , many mistakes and failures and we ask for forgiveness. Our purpose is to follow Christ and not allow anything to come between putting HIm first. Heartfelt thanks to those of you who have sttood by us in these difficult times. Sincerely , Alvin Kroeker Diane Kroeker
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2008 10:56:14 GMT -5
slowtosee, what responses, if any, did you get from your letter?
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 30, 2008 13:40:29 GMT -5
Hi Clearday, I can't recall too much response, from the letter , although one of the friends did ask us "what's your beef", I think. One "friend" came and told us he did NOT want to lose our friendship, but mostly no response directly to us. There seemed to be a tremendous response in avoidance of us though, as if we had the plague or something~~~~~~~~~~. I truly hope the people mentioned can find support from those within their group, as it must be super hard at this stage of their life to feel so abandoned, no matter who did or did not do whatever. Alvin
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Post by selah on Nov 30, 2008 13:45:49 GMT -5
Alvin and Diane ...... I love you so much. Blessings, Linda
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2008 15:11:36 GMT -5
Hi Clearday, I can't recall too much response, from the letter , although one of the friends did ask us "what's your beef", I think. One "friend" came and told us he did NOT want to lose our friendship, but mostly no response directly to us. There seemed to be a tremendous response in avoidance of us though, as if we had the plague or something~~~~~~~~~~. I truly hope the people mentioned can find support from those within their group, as it must be super hard at this stage of their life to feel so abandoned, no matter who did or did not do whatever. Alvin It's good to see you got a little, slightly positive response. I wouldn't have expected much more. Most people follow the leaders on such matters and are quick to close their hearts and minds when word goes around that someone is considered dangerous to the flock. The people who will swim against the stream because of their compassion and care are fairly rare. I suppose that happens in most groups......groups are very powerful and frequently seem capable of causing stampedes. I too hope that the MI people find some support and comfort from within the group. However, it is highly unlikely to happen unless they seek it. If they did, I think they would find support from different corners of the world. They could start by contacting WINGS or even posting here, they may be pleasantly suprised. Otherwise, the system is very efficient in cutting people off and leaving them to starve, at least on a local basis. We don't shoot the wounded (figuratively) as much as we used to, the passive aggressive starvation method is more in vogue these days. We only shoot them when there is a lot of pressure to get them out and they won't take the hints to leave. Then we shoot 'em, and if they still show signs of life, we shoot 'em again......
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Post by Sharon on Nov 30, 2008 17:05:50 GMT -5
Reminds me of what we learn in psychology called "mind games"! And it's a way of "control"! I still just want to cry "Come, Lord Jesus! I have such trust in Him that He'll know who is who and who is desirable in the eternal Kingdom! That much I do know!
I know a couple down south who pulled away purposefully, though one would have to wonder just how soon the mind games would've started on them? They too are having their own little gathering, trying their best to keep true to God!
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 30, 2008 18:10:38 GMT -5
Hi, We love you lots too , Linda. You are a great encourager. Clearday, I smiled at your "shooting the wounded" post, although it really is not funny. We got "shot at" from innies , but it must be even more difficult to dodge the bullets , in your case , when they come from both directions. ~~~~ Thanks for your insightful posts from someone still in the fellowship. There are others we know, "professing", who do not worship the "system" and it gives me hope and joy to see that they are not allowing themselves to be deceived. I am still VERY interested in what goes on in the 2x2 church, and even though I was not B&R, I find that I consider them MY people ,still, and surprise myself at times, in how defensive I am of the PEOPLE, but for sure not of the system, although there are MANY good points to that too. I treasure many relationships we had, and still do have, with the people of the group. I suspect that the people shunning these poor old folks want to avoid 'persecution" themselves and so just try to avoid them and stay clear, and yes, we all fall victum to spreading "gossip'. The story of the man that was gossiped about comes to mind. It turned out the gossip was wrong and the person who started the "story" went to apologize to the man and said, " I am sorry and I want tomake this right. What can I do? The old man said, Take this bag of feathers and go spread the feathers around town and then come and see me again. Okay, and when thatwas done, the person came back to the old man. Now what do I do? Go back uptown and gather all the feathers you spread, and put them back in the bag.
Well, that;'s impossible and that's the point, of course, about gossip.
Love in Him Alvin
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peace and joy
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For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, and peace,and joy in the Holy Ghost
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Post by peace and joy on Dec 1, 2008 15:40:48 GMT -5
clearday said: I too hope that the MI people find some support and comfort from within the group. However, it is highly unlikely to happen unless they seek it. If they did, I think they would find support from different corners of the world. They could start by contacting WINGS or even posting here, they may be pleasantly suprised.
Are you referring to the elder grandparents or the parents could start by contacting WINGS? I really don't think the parents of the children are going to contact the website that posted news articles about their alleged child abuse case!
Their are many Michigan and Canadian friends who are in support of the parents and grandparents. At the present time the children are not supposed to be around the friends per court order.
JHJMR - I haven't heard the rumors about the domestic abuse. Many of us pray for their family. I feel they were very badly wronged, and hopefully someday there will be apologies forthcoming that will help with the healing.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 1, 2008 21:33:16 GMT -5
After all the pain and suffering this whole family has gone through, is it possible especially in the limited lifetime of the elderly grandparents that healing can take effect? This family has been torn apart in so many different ways that even as every day humans it would be nigh unto impossible to get over this manifold offenses! Truly it is only impossible with God. I hope they soon get to the bottom of all the lies and false accusations......I'm not sure that any good will come to this family as long as the present workers stay in MI.....it'd make for some very touchy relationships! I'm wondering why there hasn't been a very big turnover in the workers in the state? It cannot be easy even for them there now! Only new faces, new names can offer "hope" for this situation, though I suppose some think to let the ones who made the mess, straighten it up! But the blunders so far have really caused far spreading pain! I hurt for this family, very much! I really hurt for the two Russian girls...they had to have been torn in all kind of directions by too many people! Yes, I see the court prohibiting the influence of the parties that contributed to the family's suffering! Pyschologically it is the only way to start the family's healing as a unit!
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peace and joy
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For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, and peace,and joy in the Holy Ghost
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Post by peace and joy on Dec 2, 2008 12:47:19 GMT -5
siwells - Did you mean it's only possible, not impossible, with God? I think anything is possible with God.
The two workers who originally started this, are no longer in the work. We lost two brother workers last year also. One passed away, and the other was taken out of the work. This same situation has been very difficult for the one removed from the work, but he has a wonderful attitude. He's leaving everything in God's hands. We do have some new faces in Michigan. This situation was very far reaching. It didn't just effect the families involved, but the families of the ones who were falsely accused.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 2, 2008 21:08:04 GMT -5
siwells - Did you mean it's only possible, not impossible, with God? I think anything is possible with God. The two workers who originally started this, are no longer in the work. We lost two brother workers last year also. One passed away, and the other was taken out of the work. This same situation has been very difficult for the one removed from the work, but he has a wonderful attitude. He's leaving everything in God's hands. We do have some new faces in Michigan. This situation was very far reaching. It didn't just effect the families involved, but the families of the ones who were falsely accused. Thank you, you're right! It is only possible with God in this situation! Yes, there's been far reaching pain from this debacle, those falsely accused as well as those of us out here being ripped emotionally into shreds because of the very great downfall of a ministry that most of us has been taught to "revere"! I know some of the posters here have had experiences personally that have caused such an enlightening of what's not right, but this whole MI situation has torn the majority of the truth's fellowship in two! But in the long run it has taught us the only ONE we can rely on is God! Thanks for correcting that thought for me!
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White Knight
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THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
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Post by White Knight on Dec 2, 2008 21:56:22 GMT -5
How many years, and years did they have meeting in their home? How many hundreds or more workers have spent time in their home? How many gospel meetings did this family open their home up for? How many friends have been in their home for meeting and fellowship? If you are familiar with Ilylo's website, they could be referred to as the 'superior saints' www.thelyingtruth.info/?f=bel&id=saintclasses They need to know that God still loves each one no matter what men say or do (F&W's). As mentioned by others there were about 30yrs of mtgs in the grandparent’s home. Plus many gospel mtgs and other gatherings years ago. In 1990-2007 there were about 500 gospel mtgs, in the accused Parents home. Plus a great deal of pot luck meals and other gatherings. I find this quite ironic, how they (so many people) came for enjoyment, but when sorrow and or trouble came all have fled. Only those of us, who came to their aid not afraid of reprisals and have taken a stand for the right and for truth to prevail, remain with them. We are also aware of and give thanks to the many that have prayed and are still praying for the family and the overall situation. A verse keeps coming to mind: And fear not them which kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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White Knight
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THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
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Post by White Knight on Dec 2, 2008 22:26:13 GMT -5
Mtgs were also in the great grandparents home for about 55- 60yrs. Then went to the grand parents home.
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Post by walker on Dec 3, 2008 8:37:23 GMT -5
As usual, only 1/2 the story is told - this post started by proclaiming the 'shunning' of the older couple - I am far from Michigan and so cannot begin to claim to know what's happening. But I do have knowledge that 2 workers visited the grandparents at conv. time. I know the family well, and was very, very glad that the two workers visited them, as both were 'old timers' in the home from years ago and would have a lot of respect and love to share with the grandparents. I'm sure that they went with the thought of bringing balm to wounded hearts and would only hope that the grandparents would accept healing !? God bless all involved that are for peace and healing and willing to forgive and go onward walking in Truth . . . .
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Post by jhjmr on Dec 3, 2008 10:50:51 GMT -5
Yes, one visiting worker that is from Pa. that was in their areaa while back and also is the one that the father of the children professed through, came to visit for a short time in Aug. She was with a worker that was from Mi. that was sent to Sweden for years, but is in Michigan this year. They said they would come back, but haven't. They did not visit the parents of the children, which is about 1/4 mile from the elderly parents home.
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Post by jhjmr on Dec 3, 2008 11:02:12 GMT -5
To Walker, this is not just a half of a story. If you know the family well, why not drop a word of encouragment, or ask how things are or how things are going! Peace and healing comes from love shown. They just found out that the special meetings are planned for Dec. 21. But this came from a family member. Not one in the area had informed them of this, no workers have made visiting plans with them so, how can healing proceed with that attitude from others? What is considered truth to those in the faith? Following the overseers control? Truth should be in following God's control. It is sad when truth, as known among the faith, is just a religious name. Everyone's religious name should be, God's Way!!
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