White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Sept 20, 2008 8:53:36 GMT -5
Sorry my original post caused a lock down because of honesty. However I'll try again without names.
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 20, 2008 9:25:22 GMT -5
Sorry my original post caused a lock down because of honesty. However I'll try again without names. So it was YOU ! I don't remember thinking there was anything wrong with your post, I guess my thinking was that the main people are 'known.' As a 'troll' I have taken issue with many things you have said, most of it is because you are saying things from a 'practical' point and I am trying to look at them from a 'legal' point. The girls have been referred for further treatment at the forensic center. They have been found not competent to stand trial at this time. My main 'interest' in this topic has been the "competent" issue that is still playing out. The judge has ruled that the girls are not "not competent" to stand trial (at this time?). This makes it sound like they have already gotten treatment, (I hadn't heard that was the case), but at some point the doc's COULD still come back to court and tell the judge that he'd been played for a fool and they are very competent, stranger things have happened.
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 20, 2008 11:57:50 GMT -5
Hay there, been a long day; however we made it through the day. Yes I was at the court hearing. edit by mod3: ============================== The remainder of this post has been removed pending moderator discussion. Thank you for your patience.
Please do not post names or identifying details.
I'm sure none of us REALLY NEED to know all the details right now, we could go enjoy our weekend instead ;D
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Post by jhjmr on Sept 20, 2008 14:04:39 GMT -5
I was in the court room on Fri. One twin was present as was the two ex workers. They had private conference in a room with windows, with the girls attorney, and it was very interesting and alarming to see one ex worker doing all of the talking. Now this is the one that says she will testify against the girls and that they lied. The girl was found incompetent and the judge accepted the results from the hospital that did the testing. The Dr. there feels he can make the girls well, and he will treat them for three months and then it will back to the court to see how the treatments has worked. The other twin was in the hospital and did not appear. She is to released the first of the week, and she is to appear in court next Fri. But it will just the same as incompetent and treated by Dr. too.
If a person is incompetent, why do we have ex workers turning in crime reports and saying these girls never lie? Incompetent people can be very easy manipulated and brainwashed. If you can feel that three months of treatment can help someone enough to stand trial and answer questions, are you very incompetent? The friends of the girls needs to be removed and they need to stand alone and become responsible and not just robots for someone Else's cause whatever it can be.
The religion is suppose to be a loving and helpful religion with a quiet caring spirit, not self righteous with no conscience. The overseer is supposedly carrying around a list. If so why and who is on the list? He flew the coop and went to another state instead of court this time. No other workers were present neither. No members of the religion except one was there, other than those that really love the girls and are concerned about there well being!!
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 20, 2008 17:20:27 GMT -5
I was in the court room on Fri. One twin was present as was the two ex workers. They had private conference in a room with windows, with the girls attorney, and it was very interesting and alarming to see one ex worker doing all of the talking. For the girls sake, I am glad someone is still there for her/them. For some who are 'crazy' it is very hard for them to talk about themselves in that condition. For others, like I've mentioned on this or other theads, being crazy is like a dream of un-controled thoughts, and when time has past it's as hard to remember as the details of a dream. "She is the ex-worker who will testify for the prosecution" is how I would word it. IMO, this is good for the girls to see, that even those who are standing by them know what they/the girls did was wrong. (If I can find my other posts, I will edit them. I was not aware that they girls had been in the hospital 'prior to' going to court.) Of the people not born mentally ill, the most likely ages for this to set in is late teens/early adult. It could be that these girls had 'never lied' prior to becoming mentally ill which makes it very hard for those close to them to not believe them. And these same 'incompetent' people can be very manipulative of others. Crazy or incompetent does not mean dumb, just as anyone of any IQ can get cancer, anyone of any IQ can become mentally ill. Yes. Being this is their first time in treatment (as far as we know), it does take a while. Once they (or those like them) have once been through treatment, sometimes all it takes is a week to get them 'competent' the next time(s). I agree everyone needs to be held responsible for their actions regardless of their mental condition, BUT they also need friends to stand by them (few will.) IF they are mentally ill, they most likely believed everything to be true at the time they said/wrote it. They did not choose to be mentally ill, most will live an 'altered lifestyle' the rest of their lives, knowing that at anytime they could cause hard to themselves or others. If 'everyone' knew the girls were in the hospital and it was 'assumed' how the judge would rule, then today was just a 'legal formality' and it's not surprising that more people weren't there.
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Post by ScholarGal on Sept 20, 2008 18:35:14 GMT -5
bandtroll, Thanks for contributing a more balanced view of the situation. ( see post directly above) I know it is tough for those directly involved to see the big picture and understand the effects and onset patterns of mental illness. I hope they will read your post and consider an alternate viewpoint.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 20, 2008 19:37:54 GMT -5
Howdy jhjmr, The friends of the girls needs to be removed and they need to stand alone and become responsible and not just robots for someone Else's cause whatever it can be.
I am curious as to where you would recommend the girls stay during this time? If the sister workers were removed from the picture completely, who do you think the twins should be around? Do you feel that they are OK to live on their own, or what are your recommendations? Do you think that the adoptive parents would want them to move back home? Just curious..... Scott
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Post by freedonforever on Sept 20, 2008 19:45:34 GMT -5
There is a lot that people don't understand about this complicated fiasco. The girls at convention 2007 were not in the condition they are today. They were not happy as lots of teen agers become, when they have rules and siblings and etc. Teenagers get to the ripe age of 18 and it is then stressed, you are your own boss, you can decide what you want.. And that is not the way it can be in a family. So, they bulked at being under the roof of their parents and they were free to go anytime they so desired. They did not have a job or driving license for certain reasons. But the girls were very out going and laughing and talking and helping at convention and acted like any normal teenager. It was after the workers said, they would take control of the girls because they said they wanted to become workers, and left with the workers that all of these terrible problems erupted. The first set of allegations were dismissed by the prosecutor after questioning because of lies. The second batch of lies turned in, the one twin refused to sign and said she didn't remember any of the stuff that was written. Then there are letters written by the ex workers telling how it was suggested to the girls in Dec. last year, that there had to be more and suggested other false allegations. These letters are in the court papers and they are signed by ex workers, ministers. Those allegations didn't get attention, so the lies then were then turned in again with new allegations. This continued on and on. Each time there was no action or arrest of anyone, they turned in more. As each allegations came, the disturbing mental problem began showing. You would know someone was mental to turn in so many lies and just keep it up. But, one encouragement that the girls got in all of this was the workers kept telling everyone, these girls don't lie. So, if the workers say that, I can do that. This was many workers, including the overseer. Even though the allegations were terrible about other workers, friends, family and about any man's name they knew. People from other states, other conventions and etc. Five members were turned in of just one family that has a convention grounds. But, the overseer nor anyone put to rest these horrible allegations.
If you just spend your time lying and trying to deceive innocent people and hurting people you would think that would cause anyone to have a mental breakdown of some kind. The girls need to be separated from anyone that would cause more mental anguish and only be in a normal environment to try and get things back in order in their minds. Therapy and quietness would be good for them. They need to talk to someone outside of all of this and feel relaxed and maybe some sense can be figured out. There are definitely manipulators in the present scene and that is not going to help anybody with any type of mental condition.
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Post by freedonforever on Sept 20, 2008 19:57:17 GMT -5
It is hoped that as the Dr. treats these girls, and they will be talked to without anyone talking for them, that someone can see that they need to be completely away from all that the girls have been with. The state has facilities for people like that or they can be not allowed to have certain visitors while hospitalized as the hospital that specializes in these cases can tell how someone reacts when they have certain visitors. The twins have not been able to talk to anyone since day one of going with the workers without someone being with them that the workers would want. The only time they talked alone was with a therapist awhile back. Those conversations are of course private. So, hopefully the specialist will be able to figure out just what plan needs to be followed. The family loves the girls but they are not to be trusted as of right now. They have siblings that have had a rough break because of these girls now. No one can ever learn to stand on their own two feet when they are in a strong hold of someone else. When deterioration comes more and more the only way to try and stop it is to fix it. Remove and redo. That is what the girls need.
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Post by freedonforever on Sept 20, 2008 20:05:26 GMT -5
Heh Scott, the picture you just painted of the girls seems a little confusing. First, they are ex sister workers and second, how are they going to support two girls forever how long that is? They have been just living off the fat of someone else's pocket book and does that mean they think they are entitled to just continue on? Workers get supported. Do ex workers get supported too? Do they have the right to have guest supported also? Four people living some place seems like they would have to have a house. Do you just keep sponging off people with four people now? If the girls are allowed to think for themselves, they just might figure it all out!
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 20, 2008 20:24:19 GMT -5
Heh Scott, the picture you just painted of the girls seems a little confusing. First, they are ex sister workers and second, how are they going to support two girls forever how long that is? Well.... The only place I have heard them called 'ex' sister workers is here on the board. Truthfully, for all I know they could just be taking a break from the work. They have been just living off the fat of someone else's pocket book and does that mean they think they are entitled to just continue on? Workers get supported. Do ex workers get supported too?
Again, I don't know how they are being supported. I would imagine they are getting by somehow. Do they have the right to have guest supported also? Four people living some place seems like they would have to have a house. Do you just keep sponging off people with four people now? If the girls are allowed to think for themselves, they just might figure it all out!I honestly do not know the living arrangements of any of them. I heard that the girls have passed their driving test (finally) and so I would imagine they are working toward becoming more independent. Are you and 'jhjmr' pretty close to each other? You seem to have the same information available.... ;D (I kinda think I know which is which, although you are kinda hard to tell apart....) Scott
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Sept 21, 2008 7:00:51 GMT -5
This is nothing more or less than a stifling act. By a person/or a group wielding power, when they don’t wont the truth out. In short I hit a main nerve. According to my legal advisers. Because of evidence of what I’ve has been said and all the attacks I’ve face and others from multiple threads. In short I have done nothing illegal. However for the sake of others I will try to revert back to my earlier way’s of posting. No names. Once again the questions I posed are not nor were not meant for judge and jury as many of these threads have become. The questions were posed as; our question is, not only is it our questions, but the questions of many others.
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 21, 2008 19:33:33 GMT -5
It is hoped that as the Dr. treats these girls, and they will be talked to without anyone talking for them, that someone can see that they need to be completely away from all that the girls have been with. Some hospitals would handle the situation like this. They would most likely be in 'lock-down,' they do not get to leave and the list of visitors is very small. Visiting hour range anywhere from zero to an hour twice a day. They will have 'group therapy' 2-3 times a day, usually only M-F. They will have 'dr appts' 2-5 times a week and staff is always on the floor. During visits, staff will be in the room with the visitors, there are no 'private conversations.' Yes, they will be watched very close. Some, not all locations, have camera's everywhere except the bathrooms. If they are hospitalized, they are having lots of private conversations. If the stress/part of the stress that set them off was coming from family then no, it would not be a good idea right now for the family to be involved. That time will (may) come. Someone other than family needed to be there for the girls, this time it was the workers. (from the prior post) Someone with a grudge could do the same thing. IF they are mentally ill, it should have been showing in other area's also. IF these names/things were being turned into the police, then in court trying to 'put these things to rest' would have been called 'obstruction of justice.'
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 21, 2008 19:47:46 GMT -5
When did the twins go into the hospital?
If they just went in now, it sort of 'looks' like they are doing this to avoid jail. Usually when someone is sick, you get them treatment as soon as possible.
That said, without a court order, it is almost impossible to get someone into a mental health hospital if they do not want to go. It is not illegal to be 'crazy,' so as long as they are/have not physically harmed or threatened to physically harm anyone, good luck.
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Post by cheechette on Sept 21, 2008 23:05:26 GMT -5
Scott, Your answer to reply #94. Family members would know what is going on with the twins and people that have been victims would know a lot more than anyone else that is writing on here. One of the problems is.... because people don't know and people pretend to be important and do know creates a misleading of information. The family does not need to sit in the court room to know what is being said and done. They have the opportunity to know what is in the court papers as the family accused always has copies of the court papers from their attorney. The people that want to know and have not been able to get their hands on the court papers, as yourself, just write as though they know. The family knows many answers to the questions that is posted here. From what is printed here from members, who are not directly involved in this situation, they can not say this is true or this is false because they were told by someone, rather it would be the workers, friends, police or whomever. I think it was the family and the accused that tried to tell you and everyone else on this thread that the stories were lies but did any of you believe? Guess you all know now. People are not completely normal and happy one day and the next day they are mentally ill and do not know right from wrong. Perhaps if you are trying to help someone get out of a mess they created you could pretend to be mentally ill. If you can convince the police and FBI that the stories are true I guess that makes you a pro in acting. So...... Maybe you need to take a ride on your motorcycle and clear your mind.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 21, 2008 23:29:40 GMT -5
Maybe you need to take a ride on your motorcycle and clear your mind.Well..... I've put on about 10,000 miles on my motorcycle this year already, so I doubt if any more are going to help...... Both sides get copies of court papers. The only ones I have asked to see are those clearing the family of some of the charges so I can make a statement here and clear that issue up for the family. Right now I know of the court ruling on Friday, and the time line attached to that in court in regards to the twins. Here is a link to where they will be going for treatment/observation in case you (or anybody) are interested: www.michigan.gov/mdch/1,1607,7-132-2941_4868_4896-14465--,00.html I am pretty sure that you know I haven't been posting everything here that I was told. I have tried to stick to the facts that are in the public domain, although I may have slipped up a few times and posted something that I believed to be true based on information I had received. (such as from the authorities) In regards to the names being posted on the board concerning charges and court hearings... White Knight has posted public information regarding charges, which is perfectly all right here. The issue is in adding names in regards to court proceedings. This is similar to the situation regarding the family and original charges against them. At no time did the names of the family get posted here, or if they were they were deleted. Even though there were public documents which showed the names, I chose not to post them here. It should be remembered that although the twins have been charged with False Report of a Felony, they have NOT been convicted of those charges. While it appears that family members and some of those accused by the twins are wanting everyone to now accept their word for the lies told about them, we should not be convicting them here on the TMB, but as with the family being charged with child abuse, we should wait for the court proceedings to take place and then accept the ruling of the court. Scott
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 21, 2008 23:33:28 GMT -5
Don't worry, Scott...most of us realize you're very discerning and also fair minded about what you post here.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 21, 2008 23:53:32 GMT -5
Don't worry, Scott...most of us realize you're very discerning and also fair minded about what you post here.Thanks Mich. I'll be the first to admit that I make mistakes though. I try to admit them and point them out when I am aware of them. Being human (and on top of that a crazy biker dude) I certainly make my share of mistakes....... Probably more than my share now that I think of it.... Scott
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 22, 2008 11:27:05 GMT -5
I think it was the family and the accused that tried to tell you and everyone else on this thread that the stories were lies but did any of you believe? Guess you all know now. There were two sides to the story, it was up to the judge to decide who was lying, and that is what most of us were/are waiting for. A ruling by the judge. BTW, can you give us a link to a thread on the TMB where anyone here ever said the girls were telling the truth? I don't remember seeing anyone posting they thought any or all of the 200 were guilty. Yes they can be. Yes it could be done, not likely something one would put on their resume.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Sept 22, 2008 18:45:21 GMT -5
It is not illegal to be 'crazy,' so as long as they are/have not harmed or threatened to harm anyone, good luck. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In this case they have, By trying to have over two hundred people behind bars.
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Post by degem on Sept 22, 2008 19:12:44 GMT -5
I think it must be horrible to be falsely accused .
It is also horrible to have to deal with a mental illness.
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 22, 2008 19:57:13 GMT -5
It is not illegal to be 'crazy,' so as long as they are/have not harmed or threatened to harm anyone, good luck. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In this case they have, By trying to have over two hundred people behind bars. I have edite my post to say "physically harmed" which is what I had meant. IMO. They are not in court because they tried to harm someone, they are in court because they are accused of LYING about it. What do the court papers say? Lying or harming? The police can not (in most cases) treat crazy people any differently than anyone else. They have to wait until the crime has been commited. Now that they have been accused of commiting a crime (lying under oath) they been arrested.
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Post by cheechette on Sept 22, 2008 21:13:13 GMT -5
Bandtroll, "Answer to #106". If you know someone for several years and they are normal, how do you claim they can be mentally ill the next day and not know right from wrong. Have you been mentally ill to know this answer? Some people are bi-polar which makes them not normal from day to day, but it is known in many ways that they have something wrong with them. Mentally ill is a different illness and I don't believe that you can become mentally ill for an apparent reason. If you follow the people that was accused, it seems as though the twins were told about things that would make them a easy victim. The twins definitely knew right from wrong. And... when this is over with and the twins are allowed to be themselves and don't have to worry about court and jail time (with no influencing by others) ... yes, I believe they will be normal. By your writing mental illness comes and goes like a head cold. Both girls graduated from high school and also received a diploma from home schooling. Mental illness is a deficiency ranging from impaired learning ability to social incompetence. It doesn't seem to match this case.
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Post by cheechette on Sept 22, 2008 21:17:56 GMT -5
How can the twins be "not competent" to stand trial when they were very capable of making up things that happened to them? If you really want to know how the mentally ill function, go to where the 'bums' hang out in bigger towns, a homeless shelter, or even a bus depot. Of the ones I've 'spent time with,' it would be like they are living in a dream to the extent that they can't/don't control the thoughts that are going through their head. AND they believe those thoughts to be reality, they can describe in detail what 'has happened to them' because they've seen it all in their mind. Some can talk for hours until you start asking them details that weren't part of their 'dream.' Usually you will get a blank look and that's when you can really tell that it's not just someone who likes to talk. It's like their minds work on fast forward. If that was the case they would 'crazy' in the social sense of the word, but the judge would not have let them off. If we could jail all the people who "are of a sick mind because the things reported were sickening," just think of all the authors and movie directors that would be locked away.
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Post by cheechette on Sept 22, 2008 21:23:50 GMT -5
Reply to #84..... Yes, we all see the bums sitting around the streets, but, how many of them are holding a bottle of wine or begging for a dime to buy the bottle of wine? I guess after they drink it they are off in la la land and they mentally are confused. Talk to a drunk and see how focused he is on your conversation.
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Post by cheechette on Sept 22, 2008 21:29:30 GMT -5
Hey Scott, the crazy biker dude..... You can't be to much of a crazy biker dude until you ride a HARLEY!
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Sept 22, 2008 21:57:26 GMT -5
By your writing mental illness comes and goes like a head cold. Both girls graduated from high school and also received a diploma from home schooling. Mental illness is a deficiency ranging from impaired learning ability to social incompetence. It doesn't seem to match this case.[/quote] from cheechette
I don't think mental illness comes and goes like a head cold but I would say in most cases you could be competant to do things like school work (BTW, why would they need both th graduate from school AND a homeschool diploma???) and still have a mental illness. I know 2 ladies who teach middle school/high school classes for kids in this state's mental hospital.
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 22, 2008 21:58:43 GMT -5
Bandtroll, "Answer to #106". If you know someone for several years and they are normal, how do you claim they can be mentally ill the next day and not know right from wrong. Have you been mentally ill to know this answer? No, but I have seen it happen to someone I had seen on a daily basis for years. I also know others who are, and have also seen many more who are mentally ill. Bi-polar is one of many mental illnesses. Serious mental illnesses include major depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), panic disorder, post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and borderline personality disorder. I will not assume that. I hope for everyones sake they can be. For some the severity can come and go. Medication, stress, sleep, diet can all effect the severity. (I am talking about those that walk the line between normal and institutionalized) Becoming mentally ill has no more to do with intelligence than getting cancer or any other illness. Mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person’s thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others, and daily functioning. Just as diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas, mental illnesses are medical conditions that often result in a diminished capacity for coping with the ordinary demands of life.
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