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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2008 20:36:27 GMT -5
This letter has been sent to all in the great state of Michigan Thanks sickatheart. I think it is a good letter by Jerome.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 5, 2008 21:08:50 GMT -5
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TOMBSTONE TRUTHTELLER
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Post by TOMBSTONE TRUTHTELLER on Apr 5, 2008 23:19:57 GMT -5
Thanks sickatheart. I think it is a good letter by Jerome. Me too thanks, sickatheart.
I have added Jerome's letter on my 2x2s website help with abused article... I hope this will encourage the rest of the overseers to investigate the child molestation charges within their own staff seriously whether it is true or not.... then to coperate with the local authority also.
The friends have opened their homes for the sake of Jesus so please don't let these child molestors in the ministry to ruin that trust .... for the sake of the children please don't let these child molestors to continue in the ministry.PPPPPLLLLLTTTTTHHHH-----PPPLLLTTTHHH!!! Nathan----You are always on a HIGH HORSE headed for nowhere. You need to get off. JUST FREAKIN' GET OFF. Your monotone BS is enough already.
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TOMBSTONE TRUTHTELLER
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Post by TOMBSTONE TRUTHTELLER on Apr 5, 2008 23:21:55 GMT -5
OH, my
Nathan, has added somethin'
Oh,
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Post by honesty on Apr 6, 2008 10:08:07 GMT -5
I have added Jerome's letter on my 2x2s website help with abused article... Why is it that you don't have a list of the most recent articles you've posted. What does Part I through Part V mean? Where is the aforementioned article on your website?
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Post by cheechette on Apr 6, 2008 12:28:49 GMT -5
FACTS about the abuse case in Michigan...... Both 19 year old Russian girls were asked to take lie-detector tests. Needless to say, the first girl changed the story so much the prosecutor entered the court room and said he did not want to talk to her. The second girl refused to take the lie-detector test and when the Judge finally forced it she did nothing but cry and the test couldn't be done. Also, only one of girls can remember being sexually molested the other one stating she couldn't remember. What is wrong with that fact? If you were molested as stated, how could you not remember. Also, the Judge spoke about the 2 women workers that have been talking to the cops and said, "I do not want anymore of these reports from the so-called ministers. I want only fact not fiction." What does that tell us? Also, the couple being accused has been told, as stated in court by their attorney, that they have attended all counseling and parenting classes and were taught this... If your child is bad, put them in their room. If they still won't stop and keep coming out of the room, then put a small lock on the door and lock them in. If that doesn't help the matter, then start taking everything they like from the room. Continue on until their room is empty. I'll bet Protective Services would call this child abuse. Better yet, who ever heard of an overseer taking walks with young girls in the mornings, before, daylight? Maybe that is why we read the word "him" instead of they. Everyone is so fast to give their opinions and really don't know any of the facts. Aren't prosecutors paid for doing their job rather it is right or wrong. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not their logo. That is how they make their paycheck. My understanding is the people that go to meeting are the first to gossip because evidently their life is so boring that this is their only excitement. Where is the saint (described in the bible) that is suppose to be loving, helpful, and caring? I find them fast to judge and the opposite of the qualifications of being a saint. Oh yeah, and if that doesn't work, we will just excommunicate you and sweep you under the rug. Yes, people do know of one worker in Michigan that was wrong and yes, the overseer shipped him to another state, where he did wrong again. He is now under investigation in that state. Hopefully the prosecutor gets wind of that. Remember, when you point your finger at someone, there are 4 fingers pointed back at you.
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Post by heal logged out on Apr 6, 2008 12:58:26 GMT -5
We should use wisdom with everything just like the judge said unquote our laws were made in wisdom wern't they!
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Post by ithascome on Apr 6, 2008 14:13:39 GMT -5
I can understand this. I know of a child that was abused... that finally said it did not happen because he wanted all the questions to stop... he wanted people to leave him alone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 14:22:12 GMT -5
FACTS about the abuse case in Michigan...... Both 19 year old Russian girls were asked to take lie-detector tests. Needless to say, the first girl changed the story so much the prosecutor entered the court room and said he did not want to talk to her. The second girl refused to take the lie-detector test and when the Judge finally forced it she did nothing but cry and the test couldn't be done. Also, only one of girls can remember being sexually molested the other one stating she couldn't remember. What is wrong with that fact? If you were molested as stated, how could you not remember. Also, the Judge spoke about the 2 women workers that have been talking to the cops and said, "I do not want anymore of these reports from the so-called ministers. I want only fact not fiction." What does that tell us? Also, the couple being accused has been told, as stated in court by their attorney, that they have attended all counseling and parenting classes and were taught this... If your child is bad, put them in their room. If they still won't stop and keep coming out of the room, then put a small lock on the door and lock them in. If that doesn't help the matter, then start taking everything they like from the room. Continue on until their room is empty. I'll bet Protective Services would call this child abuse. Better yet, who ever heard of an overseer taking walks with young girls in the mornings, before, daylight? Maybe that is why we read the word "him" instead of they. Everyone is so fast to give their opinions and really don't know any of the facts. Aren't prosecutors paid for doing their job rather it is right or wrong. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not their logo. That is how they make their paycheck. My understanding is the people that go to meeting are the first to gossip because evidently their life is so boring that this is their only excitement. Where is the saint (described in the bible) that is suppose to be loving, helpful, and caring? I find them fast to judge and the opposite of the qualifications of being a saint. Oh yeah, and if that doesn't work, we will just excommunicate you and sweep you under the rug. Yes, people do know of one worker in Michigan that was wrong and yes, the overseer shipped him to another state, where he did wrong again. He is now under investigation in that state. Hopefully the prosecutor gets wind of that. Remember, when you point your finger at someone, there are 4 fingers pointed back at you. Thanks for this information on the issue -- I would wonder if the issue against the other workers that some have implied exists, is a similar matter of definitions? or ????? or is it based on some other situation? Your description of the worker moved to another state without any kind of warning to the vulnerable there, is far more typical of 2x2 'save face at any cost' behavior than the accusations of sexual impropriaty of the foster parents of upper teen age girls.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 14:29:36 GMT -5
I can understand this. I know of a child that was abused... that finally said it did not happen because he wanted all the questions to stop... he wanted people to leave him alone. 1) I didn't know that a judge could 'force' a lie detector test. .. I thought that the resaults are sometimes not even admissible. 2) She could have either wanted it to stop, or knew that she wouldn't pass (We don't know, I won't assume.) .. but I would have thought that the prosecutor would had a firm story before it ever got to court.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 14:34:48 GMT -5
Yes, people do know of one worker in Michigan that was wrong and yes, the overseer shipped him to another state, where he did wrong again. He is now under investigation in that state. Hopefully the prosecutor gets wind of that. 1) Is the MI case happening in a state or local court? .. if local the prosecutor may not be able to do anything other than forward MI information to the other state 2) And if the prosecutor's can't get the girls to cooperate in this case he'll be less likely to go after others.
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beentheregothetshirt
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Post by beentheregothetshirt on Apr 6, 2008 15:27:53 GMT -5
There can always be two sides of the story and as a child that is one fear that we must always face is WHO IS GOING TO BELIEVE US? It is the reason that sometimes months, years, or decades pass before the truth comes out. It is different if someone is caught in the act but then again...As we know from other experiences who is going to believe that one of the beloved workers or saints can do so wrong...it is then up to the child to prove that he isn't just making up the story.
I maybe one of the luckier ones as the beloved "Elder" of our church, who had molested me over 2 years got cancer and died. My story came out when I was able to see him in his coffin and see it lowered into the ground. I know that many aren't this lucky. The thing is though it affects the rest of our lives...They maybe dead but EVERYTHING in life changes. At 34 years old I am now only starting to see the affects it has had on my life through the years. Please remember that we must listen to the children and never just assume they are making up stories. I am a survivor and it is no thanks to the F&W's who said to just not talk about it.
I am sure this is only the tip of the iceberg...since i've seen nothing from canada yet...I will place myself on the front lines of this fight though for the children.
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Post by the account if on Apr 6, 2008 16:22:22 GMT -5
I can understand this. I know of a child that was abused... that finally said it did not happen because he wanted all the questions to stop... he wanted people to leave him alone. 1) I didn't know that a judge could 'force' a lie detector test. .. I thought that the results are sometimes not even admissible. 2) She could have either wanted it to stop, or knew that she wouldn't pass (We don't know, I won't assume.) .. but I would have thought that the prosecutor would had a firm story before it ever got to court. made up. No judge can force a lie detector test. Lie detector tests are voluntary and in most cases not admissible as sound evidence. They may be introduced just to support some contentions of false or innocent but may not be viewed as valid because they have to many problems if mis-readings. Hence any good attorney will contest any lie detector test results and come out ahead. Some one is just putting more spin on this.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Apr 6, 2008 17:41:35 GMT -5
My relative has been accused by one of the twins, and I believe it is false. Best we can figure, he said something offensive, as he is a very strict 2x2 worker and is very bold in saying what he thinks you need to do or wear (in order to be "godly" according to the standards of meetings).
He has left the work on his own accord, even though he has been told it is fine if he wanted to stay. I doubt he wants to make others uncomfortable, and this is likely why he stepped down.
I think the reason we need to be careful is because people DO falsely accuse others (as Jesse pointed out). It's sad, but it happens. I dont know why they do it- maybe for attention, revenge? I don't know.
But because of people who falsely accuse people of abuse, we have to wait for the facts before we make our judgement.. in the meantime, we need to protect our children from these people. In fact, we should protect our children from all people. We never know what's truly in their heart.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 18:12:20 GMT -5
I think your relative is right to step out of the work for the time being regardless of guilt or innocence, it should be mandatory for all accused workers. If he is innocent though, I hope he openly and vigorously seeks vindication. If he is innocent, there may be a lesson here though regarding worker activities. An overbearing worker who dictates lifestyle matters is bound to cause offense and encourage false accusations as retribution. Workers who position themselves as rulers of the people rather than servants of the people are increasingly likely to be brought down one way or the other. That's just the kind of environment we live in today. My relative has been accused by one of the twins, and I believe it is false. Best we can figure, he said something offensive, as he is a very strict 2x2 worker and is very bold in saying what he thinks you need to do or wear (in order to be "godly" according to the standards of meetings). He has left the work on his own accord, even though he has been told it is fine if he wanted to stay. I doubt he wants to make others uncomfortable, and this is likely why he stepped down. I think the reason we need to be careful is because people DO falsely accuse others (as Jesse pointed out). It's sad, but it happens. I dont know why they do it- maybe for attention, revenge? I don't know. But because of people who falsely accuse people of abuse, we have to wait for the facts before we make our judgement.. in the meantime, we need to protect our children from these people. In fact, we should protect our children from all people. We never know what's truly in their heart.
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Post by mmmm on Apr 6, 2008 18:40:04 GMT -5
I think your relative is right to step out of the work for the time being regardless of guilt or innocence, it should be mandatory for all accused workers. If he is innocent though, I hope he openly and vigorously seeks vindication. My relative has been accused by one of the twins, and I believe it is false. Best we can figure, he said something offensive, as he is a very strict 2x2 worker and is very bold in saying what he thinks you need to do or wear (in order to be "godly" according to the standards of meetings). He has left the work on his own accord, even though he has been told it is fine if he wanted to stay. I agree that it is good to step down, just a police officer or teacher would have to do, be re-assigned during an investigation. The two are / and should be totally unrelated. Just as anyone who abuses should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, so should anyone who falsely claims abuse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2008 18:47:21 GMT -5
Quote:An overbearing worker who dictates lifestyle matters is bound to cause offense and encourage false accusations as retribution. The two are / and should be totally unrelated.
Just as anyone who abuses should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, so should anyone who falsely claims abuse.
Unfortunately, retribution is the most common cause of false accusation, so the two can be closely related. It is rare that someone will falsely accuse just for fun, but rather to get back at someone for perceived grievances that cannot be dealt with for one reason or another.
I agree with regard to penalties for false accusers. Perhaps a proven false accuser should face the same penalty as what the accused would have received had they been guilty?
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Post by Anonymous on Apr 6, 2008 20:45:20 GMT -5
FACTS about the abuse case in Michigan...... Both 19 year old Russian girls were asked to take lie-detector tests. Needless to say, the first girl changed the story so much the prosecutor entered the court room and said he did not want to talk to her. The second girl refused to take the lie-detector test and when the Judge finally forced it she did nothing but cry and the test couldn't be done. Also, only one of girls can remember being sexually molested the other one stating she couldn't remember. What is wrong with that fact? If you were molested as stated, how could you not remember. Also, the Judge spoke about the 2 women workers that have been talking to the cops and said, "I do not want anymore of these reports from the so-called ministers. I want only fact not fiction." What does that tell us? Also, the couple being accused has been told, as stated in court by their attorney, that they have attended all counseling and parenting classes and were taught this... If your child is bad, put them in their room. If they still won't stop and keep coming out of the room, then put a small lock on the door and lock them in. If that doesn't help the matter, then start taking everything they like from the room. Continue on until their room is empty. I'll bet Protective Services would call this child abuse. Better yet, who ever heard of an overseer taking walks with young girls in the mornings, before, daylight? Maybe that is why we read the word "him" instead of they. Everyone is so fast to give their opinions and really don't know any of the facts. Aren't prosecutors paid for doing their job rather it is right or wrong. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not their logo. That is how they make their paycheck. My understanding is the people that go to meeting are the first to gossip because evidently their life is so boring that this is their only excitement. Where is the saint (described in the bible) that is suppose to be loving, helpful, and caring? I find them fast to judge and the opposite of the qualifications of being a saint. Oh yeah, and if that doesn't work, we will just excommunicate you and sweep you under the rug. Yes, people do know of one worker in Michigan that was wrong and yes, the overseer shipped him to another state, where he did wrong again. He is now under investigation in that state. Hopefully the prosecutor gets wind of that. Remember, when you point your finger at someone, there are 4 fingers pointed back at you. The above quote is not all fact. Those of you who are not directly involved, do not try to figure this case out and DEFINITELY do not believe everything you read. Scott Ross is your best source of information. I would otherwise disregard another person's attempt of the true story. Like everything, information gets twisted and has a bias to one side or the other. Just let it play out and don't try to figure it out. This is a huge case and may take years to sort through. There are people trying to do damage control or save face. Don't believe everything you read or hear.
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Post by agree on Apr 6, 2008 20:48:51 GMT -5
(We don't know, I won't assume.)
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Post by you betcha on Apr 6, 2008 20:50:54 GMT -5
“You should only believe half of what you see, and none of which you hear (read)”
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2008 2:21:41 GMT -5
The above quote is not all fact. Those of you who are not directly involved, do not try to figure this case out and DEFINITELY do not believe everything you read. Scott Ross is your best source of information. I would otherwise disregard another person's attempt of the true story. Like everything, information gets twisted and has a bias to one side or the other. Just let it play out and don't try to figure it out. This is a huge case and may take years to sort through. There are people trying to do damage control or save face. Don't believe everything you read or hear. One thing that most agree is that sexual abuse is a horrible life destructive crime -- and everything possible should be done to hinder it (above all hinder recurrances) especially within closed organizations like the 2x2s. There is absolutely no excuse for ignoring offence, harboring and excusing offenders as the 2x2 organization very clearly has done in countless examples. However it is also important to remember that false accusation/false implication of sexual crime is ALSO extremely painful and also extremely life destructive for victims. A certain amount of balance and understanding for the extremely contagious nature of suspicion and condemnation is well to be in place. Dismissing all information in conflict with what we would like to believe is dishonest -- and never will lead to good for either part.
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Post by six fingers on Apr 7, 2008 3:16:21 GMT -5
[quote author=Anonymous board= Remember, when you point your finger at someone, there are 4 fingers pointed back at you. [/quote]
Wow, you must have 6 fingers, when pointing one of my fingers, I only have 3 pointing back at me, the 4th one is my thumb and it is pointing straight up!!!........ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Post by Ah Two Toes on Apr 7, 2008 16:02:51 GMT -5
Me say 6 fingers have two heads. Him find corn in fire while cooking taters, Big chief name him fornacator.
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Apples
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Post by Apples on Apr 7, 2008 19:53:57 GMT -5
made up. No judge can force a lie detector test. Lie detector tests are voluntary and in most cases not admissible as sound evidence. You state this with authority yet: Plaintiff-Appellee, v DONALD NELSON BAILEY II, No. 212983 Oakland Circuit Court While the victim and defendant were in Wayne Circuit Court to determine whether defendant had violated the terms of the PPO, the Wayne Circuit Court Judge ordered defendant to submit to a polygraph test.taken from the court files. Emphasis added. And, yes, this was in MI. If you don't know sometimes it is better to just sit quietly and watch.
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Post by Gary on Apr 7, 2008 21:37:08 GMT -5
May we all be reminded, and I do have empathy for those many F/W alike. That have been falsely accused. As sexual assault, allegations or charges.Never get, get dropped. you have to live with them for the rest of your life. They are hidden and kept on file waiting for another case to come up. This writer is all to aware of this. AS I to have been dragged into this mess.I was not anywhere near the ST. of Michigan. HOWEVER I do believe if anyone has done such a thing, they should not be left unpunished. Now upon saying this anyone aiding and abating should be charged and or dealt with by the LAW! FOR we should not have have to wounder ,who's going to or where's the next faults allegation is going to come from. AS one can be very of. IT TAKES THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO FIGHT THESE TYPES OF ALLEGATIONS!!! This writer has more to say about this great burden . But enough said for now.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 7, 2008 23:04:15 GMT -5
Howdy Gary, If you want drop me an email to: bescottross@aol.com If you weren't anywhere near the state, and feel as if you were falsely accused, maybe I can help you out. Scott
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Post by oh my God on Apr 7, 2008 23:08:37 GMT -5
Howdy Gary, If you want drop me an email to: bescottross@aol.com If you weren't anywhere near the state, and feel as if you were falsely accused, maybe I can help you out. Scott don't you think you've done enough? you are the accusers. later, after everything is done, you want to go back and check to see if maybe they were falsely accused.
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Post by Nope on Apr 7, 2008 23:09:59 GMT -5
made up. No judge can force a lie detector test. Lie detector tests are voluntary and in most cases not admissible as sound evidence. You state this with authority yet: Plaintiff-Appellee, v DONALD NELSON BAILEY II, No. 212983 Oakland Circuit Court While the victim and defendant were in Wayne Circuit Court to determine whether defendant had violated the terms of the PPO, the Wayne Circuit Court Judge ordered defendant to submit to a polygraph test.taken from the court files. Emphasis added. And, yes, this was in MI. If you don't know sometimes it is better to just sit quietly and watch. The Defendant Cannot be forced. The case if true will be in jeopardy of mis-trial. Based on US Federal Courts In 2007, polygraph testimony was admitted by stipulation in 19 states, and was subject to the discretion of the trial judge in federal court. The use of polygraph in court testimony remains controversial, although it is used extensively in post-conviction supervision, particularly of sex offenders.
In Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals (1993) [5], the old Frye standard was lifted and all forensic evidence, including polygraph, had to meet a new standard in which "underlying reasoning or methodology is scientifically valid and properly can be applied to the facts at issue."
While polygraph tests are commonly used in police investigations in the US, no defendant or witness can be forced to undergo the test. In United States v. Scheffer (1998) [6], the U.S.-----
Supreme Court left it up to individual jurisdictions whether polygraph results could be admitted as evidence in court cases. Nevertheless, it is used extensively by prosecutors, defense attorneys, and law enforcement agencies who believe in its utility. In all cases it is voluntary and cannot be forced.
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