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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 13, 2009 16:25:41 GMT -5
So, I guess you could say Jesus was denouncing his brethren in other denominations of the same religion. Judaism and Christianity are not denominations of the same religion. Christians and Pharisees were denominations of Judaism.
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Post by JO on Feb 13, 2009 16:30:00 GMT -5
I think you're trying to DESTROY something which it can't be done. Acts 5:38-39 "... Leave these men (apostles) alone for if their purposeor activity be of human Origin, it will FAIL. But it be of God, ye CAN NOT be ABLE to STOP these men. You'll ONLY find yourself fighting against God." (NIV) [/color][/quote] Nathan, you are doing more to destroy the church than Cherie is IMO. Cherie is assembling and documenting material in a professional manner. I see in your writings a desperation to defend the indefensible, which is resulting in muddying of the waters and confusion. I see it as endless genealogies and old wives fables. I love what is of God in our church. At the same time I hate what is not of God in our church. Lies and dishonesty are indefensible and are not of God. You keep saying "let the reader decide". I submit that intelligent readers will decide that Cherie's writings make more sense than yours.
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 16:30:44 GMT -5
The 2x2 group is NOT the ONLY one with doctrines that are universally inconsistent, and false.... We can find all these things, unChrist-like characteritics in ALL churches.
But the 2x2 group is the one that describes themselves as "the perfect way". It's not much of an argument to say, in essence, "everybody has faults, including us, but we're still perfect".
Nathan, you didn't answer this question: Do you realize how patently absurd it is to view someone as lost, and then expect them them in turn to view your group as "of God"?
It's a basic yes or no question. Well, if the answer is "yes" it's basic...if it's "no" you have to spin some words.
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 16:33:07 GMT -5
Christians and Pharisees were denominations of Judaism.
You actually feel that Christianity is a denomination of Judaism?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 13, 2009 16:38:23 GMT -5
Christians and Pharisees were denominations of Judaism. You actually feel that Christianity is a denomination of Judaism? You keep saying "is"...I keep saying "was". Yes, Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. Today's Judaism is rabbinical Phariseeism (sp?). In the early first century, there were many different ideas about Messiahs, but they were all subscribers to...well, for lack of a better word, Judaism. They all worshipped side-by-side in the same buildings.
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 16:45:51 GMT -5
Look at who WmI was writing to when he stated that he had started "The Testimony" (what he called the F&Ws or 2x2 sect) —He was addressing people who would KNOW for certain whether he was lying or telling the truth. Would you lie to people who knew you when you grew up in Kilsythe and went on the Bicycle "test drive" trip in 1899 with you (John Hardie); who were there with you in the beginning (Eddie Cooney; Bill Carroll) and who could call your hand on it and laugh in your face if it were not true?? Now, would you? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) I think NOT. Check out the following statements and who WmI said them to. NOTE: "Testimony" was the term Wm Irvine used in his letters to refer to the Workers & Friends Fellowship, 2x2s, Go-Preacher Movement, Tramp Preachers, "the truth", etc. that he started. “Looking back over 20 years, it was a big job to gather, mother, teach, guide, lead and scatter over the world, a seed in Alpha Days. But I managed it. It was hard to get people to see, feel and do what I had done IN STARTING ALONE, and finding room and people in the world for my Message; and once people tested it out, they found it possible, just as if the world was virgin soil. But it was the way to reveal the strong from the weak. And my job was to lead the way so that others could follow and find, that what was possible to me was, for them, comparatively easy, if they faced it. And once a year I visited them to cheer, strengthen, and supply what was lacking in their witness.” (June 2, 1933 Letter to Hulls) (Followers of Wm Irvine's Omega Message) “I am the one God used altogether--not "most." NO WILLIAM--NO TESTIMONY. The mountains echo and re-echo the human voice, and so The Testimony was the echo and re-echo of the Voice of God through my lips, though I knew it not then, as I do today. For the Prophets and Apostles only got to know who they were, when they found themselves the victims of the iniquity and Scandal of those who were called the Church, or seal of their Anointing...I planted the Vineyard and it has fallen into the hands of wicked husbandmen. And I am the Servant sent to find the fruit; and those who mistreat the Servant are the same as the killers of the Son and Heir...whose end is destruction." (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker- entered work in 1901) “These 26-1/2 years is but half of my nearly 54 years of being the Son of Man, and hid from men's eyes and now about to be revealed. 26 years giving Alpha Message and seeing it finished up as in Matt. 24; leaving the Tares which the devil sowed to the Testimony cut asunder and appointed their portion with the hypocrites LIVING BY WHAT I HAD MADE FOR THEM." (May 6, 1946 Letter to Dunbars) (Some loyal followers of Wm Irvine--letters in TTT files to them from 1919 to 1946.) “Think of all I did for you, and others, in spite of my sins!… Fancy the labor in building a house for God, and the pain of seeing it become a den of thieves!! (August 28, 1920 Letter to John Hardie).(Worker and childhood friend of Wm Irvine from Kilsyth Scotland; entered work in 1900) “God made ME the FIRST head of the family. He did the calling by ME, and now these past seven years, he is doing the choosing, for many are called, few chosen. It was so wonderful, both in numbers who heard, the numbers who professed, the numbers of workers, the ground covered with the clearness of the truth as it is in Jesus. But the end of the Jesus Way is to choose his Bride from among those who have had all these privileges...The dragon with seven heads is those who sat themselves up as Leaders of The Testimony and use their Horns of Authority to hurt others and are claimed by men as Leaders…deliver you from the power of the greatest set of robbers in the world history, who thought they could rob ME and those of what God had given them." (August 17, 1921 Letter to Fred Hanowell. (Worker) "If there had been no Wm Irvine, there would have been no Testimony. This was the general witness by all. If there had been no Wm Irvine found wise and faithful, there would have been no Son of Man chosen to rule His Household and give them meat in due season these 24 years past. Has any other known person done this--and now being so clearly fulfilled before their eyes and working into their hearts and lives everywhere as they see it fulfilled. And so fear is on all our enemies as it brings joy to all who are His Household. "Not every one that says Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom, but they that do the will of My Father in Heaven. Many shall say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works. Then shall I (Jesus) say, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards)(Early Worker) "Six years ago, in April, I was rejected and despised and cast out to die, according to prophecy, my birthright divided amongst my children and enemies (and I was willing), but the anointing that God gave me remained with me, and nobody seems to get my mantle, though many have tried my shoes, sat in my seat, slept in my bed, ate my meals and have enjoyed the rise to power and pre-eminence...When the world and Testimony set out to bury me, and forget my name, person, presence and etc. they failed. The Jesus Way was stolen, confiscated, misappropriated. I remember seeing and hearing you take it over in my presence.” (June 29, 1920 Letter to Wm Carroll) (Worker - entered work in 1903) “You and Co. [the other workers] stole all God and His Anointed produced, but you did not steal the root nor the power which made my mustard seed.” (March 2, 1921 Letter to Willie Abercrombie)(Worker - entered work in 1901) “I was pleased to see your letter and to hear of some evidence of returning humanity in three of you, for that will precede any hope of deliverance from the snare of the Devil, into which you have all fallen, and which accounts for the deadness and corruption, which characterized the whole Testimony these 9 years. And if nobody else knows it, I do; and always knew more of these conditions than anyone else. And rightly so, for The Testimony was the Seal of God and proof of MY Anointing. And if I was not the Father, certainly I was not the Brother of any. God never gathered brethren but by a father, and all your attempts to change these facts only reveals the secrets of your hearts and leaves you where you began, and as you began—without God, and knowing it not, though full of zeal, knowledge, profession and fruit, which you long ago recognized was only adding to the wickedness of the world… “ (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney)(Worker - entered work in 1901) "For 14 years I worked outside all religious connection and gathered many out and around Him, and my attempt to do as the Acts and Apostles taught, only to find, as did Paul, that false Apostles and prophets would try to get power to lead the so-called churches I had formed spiritually under their power….I had many converts in G. Britain, Ireland, USA, Canada, NZ, Australia and S. Africa….I listened to all sorts of people and went to all sorts of places from 1914 to 1918 and found nothing but the old hypocrisy of saying and doing not, every man full of his own thots and ways, seeking a crowd and a crust." (October 16, 1934 Letter to Mr. Thorp) (New Convert to Wm Irvine's Omega Message) " The record of the whole book shows that The Man God Anointed to BEGIN the work, is the one He uses to finish it; and it's always revealed in similar ways. The wicked always are the rejecters; the Lamb of God seed, led by the anointed of God, are the rejected. The whole Bible is a record of the few men who were the anointed of God bringing blessing to many; and then rejected by the many, that the few sheep might be gathered around the man of God, who becomes the least; as the wicked become the greatest. ( December 8, 1921 Letter to Harry McNeary) NOTE: Anointed of God was a title Wm Irvine used for himself. ________________________________________ "IF THERE HAD BEEN NO WM. IRVINE... THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO TESTIMONY..." (September 16, 1938 Letter to Edwards) Cherie, the man was dishonest to start with...he was employed by Faith Missions and what did he do? He did NOT deal with his employer honestly! That is according to what you've said also. I do not count much of what he said as truth...for he colored it with his flashes of delusions of grandeur and the letter you quoted up above is full of delusions of grandeur! [/quote][/quote] Yes, Cherie, do look at the dates of these so called letters to people who might think them to be nothing more then rambling history...this was years after he was excommunicated, wasn't it? Why in the world, would a man in his right mind, brag about being the founder of something that has excommunicated him and he has told at least one of those said people that he enjoyed his cigar much more then he'd ever enjoyed any of them??? Now explain that kind of mindset being normal...please! The man had delusions of grandeur! The above letters pretty well prove that outside of him having had a medical evaluaton at that given time....but they are suspectible...wasn't this years after he'd had the delusion of grandeur about being one of the two last witnesses...how can you put much stock in the above letters? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) Not unless you lived and died with the man could anyone put much value into these letters...years AFTER excommunication!
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 16:48:24 GMT -5
I haven't read all these posts, but I hope Cherie isn't getting too frustrated by all this. Some years ago was definitely an aura around the workers and the murky beginnings of the movement that should rightfully be dispelled with factual information. As I've said many times, I never felt lied to, but view this aura as the tendency of people to build up their social group and mythologize aspects of its existence including its origins. Hey, I didn't read the post above when I wrote this one. Cherie's frustration is proving a point......she also seems to credit the "Long" person with more of the founding or as much of the founding, even in her mind, as WI!
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 16:50:58 GMT -5
Yes, Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism.
This we can agree on. But to characterize Christians as ever being a "denomination" of Judaism is to blur the reality. Indeed, Jews and gentiles worshipped Christ, as Savior, together; IE those Jews "converted" to Christianity. But that is distinctly different from the Jews who rejected Christ as Savior and continued to worship in traditional Judaic fashion. The Jews who rejected Christ did not worship together with Christians. The Jews who accepted Christ became Christians.
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Post by JO on Feb 13, 2009 16:54:42 GMT -5
Cherie's frustration is proving a point......she also seems to credit the "Long" person with more of the founding or as much of the founding, even in her mind, as WI! William Irvine was the man who started the mission that John Long, Wilson McClung, George Walker, the Carrolls, etc laboured in. The fellowship as we know it evolved from that mission. What part of that is so difficult to understand?
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 16:55:56 GMT -5
Can't you get ANYTHING RIGHT? John KELLY was nothing of the sort. You're thinking about John LONG. it's a good thing you're not writing a historical account, Sharon! Also, "that first group of "workers" that departed ways with the Faith Mission" was THREE men: Wm Irvine, John Kelly and one other in the year 1901. Is that a GROUP? A mass exodus? A splinter group? We dont even know if they all left at the same time--only that they left in the same year. And the others submitted themselves to WmI's founding overseership. Where did John Long claim (or perform) the least bit of leadership in the group's start-up? Other than being at the first gospel missions whre WmI preached on independent lines? Check out JL's words when WmI kicked him out - he uses words something to the effect "a movement he helped to start." Thats how he viewed his role in the group. "That all seems quite right. But don't forget Cooney and the mysterious shadow of John Kelley. I've been thinking that given the emphasis on a 2x2 ministry, would Irvine not have had a partner right from early days. " what! According to what Cherie has said and posted on this particular topic, John Kelly was the "presidential" advisor, much like the nation attributed Cheney with Bush's tactics as president.....so I have to think that John Kelly was as much a "founder" of the "workers" going outside the Faith Mission as WI was. I'm not saying that WI did NOT "gather" together his own tribe of workers, but he took what the Faith Mission had already begun just a short 10-11 yrs before and "experimented" with it....it was a "group" of those workers who decided about 4 yrs. later they needed to start "living what they were preaching." That is from some of the beginning workers' stories that's been told on this forum! Then it was even a couple years later that they decided to "form a fellowship" of their converts...they begin to have MORE workers then their funds and needs could handle, so it was conducive to "form" or "found" the fellowship. The truth's fellowship as it is today is NOT what was started in 1897 by WI, J. Kelly or whoever else was in that first group of "workers" that departed ways with the Faith Mission. The laxity of the Faith Mission in letting the new converts go to whatever church was convenient is the very thing that "caused" the "founding" of the fellowship.....otherwise the "workers" under WI as overseer would have never been moved to "form" or "found" the truth's fellowship....they would have continued just like they started, converting but not caring for them! It was out of necessity to form or found the fellowship...it actually was a 2 tier development...WI did not found the fellowship even with strong imagination on our part...he may have found the ministry of itinerant workers, but his part is nothing more then that! Exactly my point, Cherie "one he helped to start"....I've been saying all along WI was not a lone founder....and he certainly was not the lone founder of the fellowship in itself....he may have co-founded with Long the "itinerant ministry" but it was a collaborative "founding" of the fellowship some years later after the ministry was "founded" if you have to use that word. It is a two-tier system, from the very beginning and even unto the day! I'm not saying that it is a correct system, but that's how it began and that is how it operates today.....I suppose if all the friends die out and/or leave the fellowship, then it can go back to a single tier system as it was started that way. These workers who gathered themselves and you can say around WI if you wish, they had NO idea or intention of starting a new sect of religion until they saw how effective their ministry was....that is a fact that all seem to agree upon, as far as I know. Thus the converts they were getting couldn't all go into the worker because then the moneys would stop rolling in and support system would be definitely be minus...so they decided as a "group" to found or form a congregation of which they would have the overseeing of and thus they made WI the first overseer....WI did not found the appropriated work "fellowship", the group of his so-called itinerant ministers did!
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 17:00:31 GMT -5
Hey dc! The workers appear to be following the lead of Jesus, who renounced the other religions of his day, too. "Ye are of your father, the devil!"Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees John 8
The Children of the Devil 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."All denominations that are truly Christian are members of the Church (body of Christ) Any worker (or any minister/pastor/whatever) claims that all other churches (denominations) do not have the Spirit, than I personally feel that shows that particular church (denomination) is exactly the type which Jesus is referring to. To deny the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of others is pretty much blasphemy isn't it? Scott Scott, I agree with you whole heartedly, though do say as you do, that there are other churches who say that their church is the only right one....and yes, I've thought of the Pharisees many times when I've heard this said. The Pharisees were a self-righteous bunch of steeped-in form Jews and I hate to see that in any denomination....making sure the outer of the vessel to be "right" or "clean" when the heart isn't committed to the love and mercy that Jesus taught, lived and died for! Thank you for posting such affirmation of the need to be more open hearted, open minded when dealing with those who profess to be Christians!
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 17:04:46 GMT -5
Thanks for that part. What would you say about some of the exes on here who are accusing the workers and the friends as a group is NOT of God. Is that right thing to say?As a blanket statement? No. But I do believe there are doctrines that are universally inconsistent, at best and outright false, at worst. I do believe that there are characteristics that are unChrist-like. I do believe that there is a great tendency to consider the fellowship as a whole, and the workers in particular, beyond criticism. I do believe that the judgment of "outsiders" to be lost is offensive. If you want to stop the accusations that your group is not "of God", then stop viewing "outsiders" as lost. Do you realize how patently absurd it is to view someone as lost, and then expect them them in turn to view your group as "of God"? Zorro! Not all of us within the truth's fellowship say such nor do many of believe that! I'm sorry if you've never met any of us that feel that Christ would wish for us to love one another as brethren....and you know, for me that goes another step...I want to love those who profess NO Christianity...I've met some very nice people that have NO church affiliation...they get up and put their pants on just like those do who are church affiliated...and I'm almost certain Jesus would gladly sit down and dine with them if asked to! And I don't think He would think that they're looking to be converted, now do you?
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 17:08:05 GMT -5
Yes, and how would the workers know who did NOT have the Spirit? Mind you, I came out of a church where I felt the work of the Spirit was lacking at the time. But all I can say with any certainty is that it was lacking in me. This is what happens so often I think. Many have come from other churches to ours and spoken of coming from deadness to life. That is used to confirm that our church alone is "the truth". And some folks say the same when they leave our church to join something else. Often that is considered confirmation that our church is dead. jo! Please consider this....when Jesus returns there will be no divisions of church, either we will all be of Him or we won't be of anything for long! It really grieves my heart when we get narrow-minded about other churches...I can not judge them, I don't even want to judge them....my feelings on the issue of other churches is about the "right to choice" that God has given every human being he has formed and given the breath of life to! That's what He gave Adam & Eve in the garden...and when people start backing another person into a corner saying it's got to be this way or else, that removes that God-given choice, doesn't it?
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 17:11:20 GMT -5
So, I guess you could say Jesus was denouncing his brethren in other denominations of the same religion. Judaism and Christianity are not denominations of the same religion. Christians and Pharisees were denominations of Judaism. Though according to Paul's epistles, the Christian church was to be "adopted" in....so they should think of themselves as "Jews", shouldn't they?
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Post by JO on Feb 13, 2009 17:13:20 GMT -5
jo! Please consider this....when Jesus returns there will be no divisions of church, either we will all be of Him or we won't be of anything for long! It really grieves my heart when we get narrow-minded about other churches...I can not judge them, I don't even want to judge them....my feelings on the issue of other churches is about the "right to choice" that God has given every human being he has formed and given the breath of life to! That's what He gave Adam & Eve in the garden...and when people start backing another person into a corner saying it's got to be this way or else, that removes that God-given choice, doesn't it? If I hadn't seen so much ungodliness in our fellowship I might be inclined to think one church has the world-wide franchise on salvation. It's obvious to me now that one earthly one-true-way is impossible due to the fallibility of man. Jesus came to save - not condemn. So how can we afford to pass judgement on our fellow man?
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Post by JO on Feb 13, 2009 17:15:34 GMT -5
Nathan, Wilson McClung told the Impartial Reporter that William Irvine started the mission. Do you have any documentation that would refute that? William Irvine was the man who started the mission that John Long, Wilson McClung, George Walker, the Carrolls, etc laboured in. The fellowship as we know it evolved from that mission. What part of that is so difficult to understand? ~~~ Do you KNOW that for sure 100% that WI was the man who started ALL of this by himself? Were you there yourself? if you were NOT there yourself how can you be so sure.
I don't believe Cherie is done with website yet.... New information is keep on emerging all the time... such as John Kelly, another Faith Mission preacher in 1896... who later became a 2x2 worker.
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Post by Sharon on Feb 13, 2009 17:17:51 GMT -5
jo! Please consider this....when Jesus returns there will be no divisions of church, either we will all be of Him or we won't be of anything for long! It really grieves my heart when we get narrow-minded about other churches...I can not judge them, I don't even want to judge them....my feelings on the issue of other churches is about the "right to choice" that God has given every human being he has formed and given the breath of life to! That's what He gave Adam & Eve in the garden...and when people start backing another person into a corner saying it's got to be this way or else, that removes that God-given choice, doesn't it? If I hadn't seen so much ungodliness in our fellowship I might be inclined to think one church has the world-wide franchise on salvation. It's obvious to me now that one earthly one-true-way is impossible due to the fallibility of man. Jesus came to save - not condemn. So how can we afford to pass judgement on our fellow man? I'm very happy to hear you say that, jo!
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Post by Zorro on Feb 13, 2009 17:32:20 GMT -5
Zorro! Not all of us within the truth's fellowship say such nor do many of believe that!
Sharon, you are right. I intended to mention that as well, and apparently left that thought on the back burner. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 13, 2009 17:48:33 GMT -5
William Irvine started gathering men and women around him (first one then another etc), and things changed when they decided that not every one had to go out preaching and house meetings were set up. What is the big problem with this? Fellowship meetings evolved a few years later, but the fellowship - is not where 2 people are gathered together fellowship, started a few years later? When the first person joined Irvine that became the start of another church fellowship, whether they intended it to be that way when they got together or not, the point is it did form into a group.
Whether meetings started later or not, Irvine started this whole thing off. This is what Cherie has stated from the beginning. You're only restating what Cherie has always said,siwells. What is so difficult for people to understand?
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Post by JO on Feb 13, 2009 17:50:05 GMT -5
~~ What kind of Mission did WI start? Was it something NEW or an OLD idea?
This is what WI wrote in Oct. 16/1935 " My attempt to do as Acts and the apostles taught and tried to imitate what's there."
Do you think WI was a founder/started of something NEW from scratch or wanting to RETURN to some thing OLD?
WI wanted to return to something that already been done in the past. What is the title do you have for WI? According to George Walker's testimony in 1942 that God had laid on the hearts of others with the same idea of RETURNING the methods and the teachings of Jesus and apostles.
~~ I don't think anybody knows who God put the desire of RETURNING to Jesus and apostles method first! How could anyone be so SURE God put it in the mind of WI first?
William Irvine started the MISSION. That's nothing to do with adopting an old method or concept or philosophy or any thing of that nature. MISSION in this context means a group of like-minded people going out to preach the gospel. The other things that define our church today - meetings in homes, convention/special meetings system, workers lists, baptism of converts, saint/worker seperation, appointment of elders, etc came a few years later. Debate who founded all that if you will, but William Irvine started the MISSION from which all the rest developed over time. Do you understand what I mean by MISSION (in this context) now?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2009 17:54:09 GMT -5
It was established in a court of law under oath and during examination that William Irvine was the "first founder" of the workers' sect.
Not only was he the founder but he was clearly pointed out as the first founder.
Of course, did he found the way before he became the first, or was he the first before he founded the way ?
Eventually the other workers made him "the last." However, we know that the "first will be last."
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 13, 2009 17:59:24 GMT -5
what is the difference if WI copied something, he still started the fellowship/group/. He still formed a new group.
If I copy something is it then new or is it the original just because I copied it? I can't claim it is the original just because I tried to copy it. In fact it would called a counterfeit if i copied it and did not put my name to it but instead claimed it was the old/original.
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 13, 2009 18:04:43 GMT -5
Started the mission, founded the Mission, found the mission, instigated the mission,.....what is so hard for you to understand? please go back to school Nathan.
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Post by JO on Feb 13, 2009 18:13:22 GMT -5
Someone recently used the analogy of the founding of the USA.
"America" existed a long time before the Declaration of Independence.
"Freedom" and "Democracy" were not new ideas.
Was "America" founded at Plymouth rock?
Play games with it if you like, twist the meanings of words if you like, but only an idiot would deny the recorded evidence.
When were the Olympic games founded?
It would be true to say the first recorded games were at Olympia in Greece in 776BC.
It would also be true to say the modern Olympics were first held in 1896 in Athens.
You could argue that representatives of various nations played games together down through the centuries, but no one is clutching at straws trying to pretend there was an unbroken line of Olympians "from the shores of Olympia" so to speak.
The church needs to get real and honest. Workers and friends haven't done a good job of confronting the myths and lies, so exes like Cherie have taken up the challenge.
Some of us in the church appreciate their efforts.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 13, 2009 18:15:54 GMT -5
Good analogy w/ Olympian games, JO. Let the games begin!
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Post by JO on Feb 13, 2009 18:25:41 GMT -5
Started the mission, founded the Mission, found the mission, instigated the mission,.....what is so hard for you to understand? please go back to school Nathan. ~~ OK, let me ask you this then... Do you believe what William Irivine and the early 2x2 workers founded according to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles?My understanding FWIW is that they were mostly sincere and humble young people groping their way toward a better understanding of the will of God. Much of what they did I admire, but they also made some serious mistakes. I think you're missing the point though Nathan. FORM and METHOD doesn't save. They rejected the "gentleman Jesus" that was popular back then and preached the "lowly Jesus". They rejected religious theory in favor of the simplicity that is in Christ and a personal relationship with Jesus. I believe it was those things that drove them more than FORM and METHOD. They turned away from the form and method of their fathers and tried to avoid starting a new religion.
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 13, 2009 18:33:33 GMT -5
Started the mission, founded the Mission, found the mission, instigated the mission,.....what is so hard for you to understand? please go back to school Nathan. ~~ OK, let me ask you this then... Do you believe what William Irvine and the early 2x2 workers founded according to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles?No, because I believe there was nothing to be 'found', as Jesus completed his work 2,000 years ago and I believe that there were Christians from the day of Jesus to this day. God did not need Irvine to found or start anything as God's work was continuing on the earth just as it had since the beginning of time in the hearts and lives of men and women. Men will try to do something to get closer to God, but that is their own works, the truth is that it is Jesus that saves, not our own works of trying to copy anything. It is Christ within that saves us. That is the Gospel message, not trying to copy some ministry. Salvation is in Jesus alone and there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved. Men and women will continue to be saved with or with out your ministry the same as it has been since the day of Jesus.
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Post by JO on Feb 13, 2009 18:51:47 GMT -5
~~~ If the FORM and METHOD were NOT important why do you THINK 200 2x2 workers in 1905 decided to RETURN to the METHODS taught and carried out by Christ and His apostles. I say form and methods play an important part in the New Testament Church.
I agree the Method and Form alone! can't save anyone without the helping and backing of the Spirit of God. Nathan, a church based on FORM and METHOD will not prosper spiritually. The more our fellowship focused on FORM and METHOD the less spiritually prosperous it became. That is what is wrong with it today.
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