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Post by ranger on Jan 15, 2009 19:10:25 GMT -5
Are there any scriptures specifically prohibiting Christians from fighting (killing) for their country? And if so are there areas of the scripture that are contradictory...like Biblical accounts of ancient Israel? What about killing in defense of yourself or your family as in a home invasion? And the big question...I one were to live through the events listed in Rev.'s would we be obligated to fight evil in a physical way or as Christians are we required to conduct our battle exclusively in the spiritual realm. Do we ever fight evil physically or are we to accept whatever comes our way?
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Jan 15, 2009 21:50:11 GMT -5
I think of the men of Valour Gideon, the man of courage and boldness Daniel, fearless men who were honorable stood out against their adversary. I would fight AND I am not a man.
Rev's.........hmmm....I think ahead all the time. When that day comes I think the most important thing is to be ready in the season. To fight the evil spiritually first, learn spiritual warfare if you dont know what it is. Learn and experience the power of prayer and fasting. Learn it now. Get close to God because in those days I think the Power of God will be manifest in an incredible way. We will need to be intune to know what the Holy SPirit is saying at any time to move or not to move, He will be the one we will rely on more than anything else. Because I think that as God looked after and made provision for the children of Israel that in those future days when people are to be marked and we dont accept it that he will feed and provide, and take care of us and through our faith many will come into the kingdom of God.
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Post by ronhall on Feb 3, 2009 20:05:23 GMT -5
Take your pick, everybody else does. Matthew 26:52 KJV Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.Luke 22:36 KJV Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Personally, I go with the "sell your coat and buy a weapon." Concerning the passage in Luke, my understanding is that Jesus not only fit into the will of God, but specifically ordered his life according to the will of God. Extending that to the passage in Luke, Jesus made sure his little band of disciples had a sword in their possession so the Jews would have reason to arrest him as being a leader of an insurrection. In other words, he purposely engineered his own arrest knowing it would take him to the cross. I believe the lesson of the cross is more than he died for our sins on the cross, but that he chose the path that led to the cross.
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Post by Gene on Feb 4, 2009 1:09:40 GMT -5
Extending that to the passage in Luke, Jesus made sure his little band of disciples had a sword in their possession so the Jews would have reason to arrest him as being a leader of an insurrection. In other words, he purposely engineered his own arrest knowing it would take him to the cross. How could anyone possibly know that? Was Judas wearing a wire?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2009 3:45:46 GMT -5
Matt 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2009 9:41:57 GMT -5
Take your pick, everybody else does. Matthew 26:52 KJV Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.Luke 22:36 KJV Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Personally, I go with the "sell your coat and buy a weapon." Concerning the passage in Luke, my understanding is that Jesus not only fit into the will of God, but specifically ordered his life according to the will of God. Extending that to the passage in Luke, Jesus made sure his little band of disciples had a sword in their possession so the Jews would have reason to arrest him as being a leader of an insurrection. In other words, he purposely engineered his own arrest knowing it would take him to the cross. I believe the lesson of the cross is more than he died for our sins on the cross, but that he chose the path that led to the cross. Jesus told the disciples to buy swords. They had no time to do that before he was taken. That message was for the future. The two swords being enough was sufficient for the immediate purpose of his arrest. The swords in my view were not for aggressive purposes but because he now told them to take a purse with them on their travels. Their great mission was to spread the gospel. The swords were to ward of wild animals and to act as a deterrant for would be robbers. Without them they would have been seen as easy targets for robbing. The fact no more is recorded about the carrying of swords or that they were robbed of their purses may indicate the success of the commandment. In defending their gospel mission God had promised to give them the words to say. They were well informed in Matt.10 and elsewhere that they would be brought before councils and governors, etc as a testimony against them. This was done with the tongue which is sharper than any two-edged sword. The carrying of swords was not to defend the gospel with.
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Post by ranger on Feb 4, 2009 19:42:04 GMT -5
Certainly Matt. records this, but in John's gospel simon-peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of one of the servants of the high priest that were sent to capture Jesus. Jesus admonished simon-peter...but not for using his sword in defense but because he did not want simon-peter to prevent God's plan for him.
John 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter,Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
Also, Jesus didn't need swords in order to appear as an insurrection, when Jesus was arrested and taken Caiaphas the high priest and where the scribes and elders were assembled, Caiaphas asked him if he was the Christ the son of God. Among other things Jesus stated: "Thou hast said". This was the statement that initiated the proceedings for crucification. I don't recall this account in any of the gospels having anything to do with swords.
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Post by kiwi on Feb 5, 2009 3:18:43 GMT -5
Matt 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Thes verses what Edgar posted are for real and should not be disregard, because how can one kill another and love him at the same time.
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Post by ranger on Feb 5, 2009 7:26:10 GMT -5
Kiwi-
As Christians we are told to love our neighbors as we do ourselves. In as much as I would not stand idly by and allow someone to murder my neighbor...I would not allow someone to murder myself or my family. That could include the use of deadly force. If you accept your interpretation of the scriptures given by Edgar how do you reconcile the following.
- God instructing the Jews to kill every man, women, and child in certain cities (OT)? - How do you justify living in a free nation "under God", whose freedom was won by killing? - If you and your family were being murderously assaulted by a madman with big guns...would you call the police, even knowing that they would probably have to kill the assailant?
- Are you saying that if someone is trying to kill you, that you should stand there and let yourself be butchered. I don't know if you have a spouse or children...could you stand there and watch them be butchered in front of you, knowing that you could have stopped it?
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Post by ranger on Feb 5, 2009 7:31:05 GMT -5
kiwi-
I am also very certain that the verses I posted are just as for real. I have given the book, chapter, and verse. Look it up and read it for yourself.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 5, 2009 15:08:35 GMT -5
I don't believe in lying, but there might be an occasion in which I would lie. I don't believe in killing, but there might be an occasion in which I would, like those hypotheticals mentioned in previous posts. I would not under any circumstance place myself in a position where I might have to kill someone else. This does not answer the question about Scripture. But the only one that comes to mind is, Thou shalt not kill.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2009 16:54:38 GMT -5
While I chose and continue to choose never to put myself in a position where I must kill my fellowman upon the orders of another, I do not consider a legal killing the murder which the Lord commanded against in those 10 commandments. I believe the officer of the law doing his sworn duty to protect and defend the population from criminals is not guilty of murder when he/she might be required to take the life of a guilty party to preserve the life of the innocent.
NOR did the LORD! Consider:Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. For me it is quite clear why and when I should never take up arms to defend myself or another. By the same token, it is also clear to me that each individual is to answer these questions in their own minds, and live by their own convictions regarding them, and not by others convictions, be they mine or anyone else's.
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Post by ronhall on Feb 6, 2009 19:20:49 GMT -5
Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages.
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Post by Sharon on Feb 14, 2009 20:21:54 GMT -5
Matt 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Thes verses what Edgar posted are for real and should not be disregard, because how can one kill another and love him at the same time. There is great wisdom in praying for our enemies! Because as we earnestly pray for them, they soon shall cease to be enemies within our minds and hearts. It is not within man to keep praying about something before it becomes part of daily living and thus praying for our enemies soon makes them part of us...then the will to fight to death has been eradicated!
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Post by pianoman on Feb 24, 2009 1:22:13 GMT -5
Matthew 6 verse 25 " Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on."
I believe that there are those, like the soldiers, that were to be content with their wages, that are meant to kill to protect the people. I also believe that the police need to use deadly force at times.
Personally, I hope to never be put in that position as I can honestly say that I don't know what I would do, now.
I know what I did in the past, and had to shoot a guy that broke into my home one time, but my spirituality was not where it is now.
I think that I would leave it in God's hands, and if prepared, I would react accordingly. I am not material for being a soldier, or a policeman.
Perhaps people will view me as a coward, or not willing to do my part.
I guess that it may come down to a choice that is made in time.........................Pianoman
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