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Post by ranger on Jan 15, 2009 13:01:41 GMT -5
Can anyone steer me to a document(s) that proves the lineage from Irvine to present day workers?
TIA-
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 29, 2009 20:39:54 GMT -5
Could you rephrase your question--I'm not sure I understand what you're looking for, but I might be able to help you find it.
There are photos of Wm Irvine with George Walker, Bill Carroll, Jack Carroll, Ed Cooney, etc...that link him to them.
Have you read Accounts of the Early Days by Goodhand Pattison?
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Post by ranger on Jan 30, 2009 13:18:49 GMT -5
Hi Cheriekropp,
Thanks for your help. I was directed to the "TTT" web site and am currently reading about the "early days". In general, I was interested in finding an authentic, documentable, trail from W.I. to contemporary Workers.
From what I have read so far, I don't know on what grounds any Workers could deny that W.I. was the founder of 2x2, and is a part of the history of this Church. I would certainly be interested in any of the Workers points of view on this, who insist that W.I. never existed or was not a part of this 2x2 Church. Or, any of their views that you may be aware of.
TIA
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Post by lin on Jan 30, 2009 13:32:37 GMT -5
What have you read that makes it undeniable that William Irvine was the sole founder,so to speak,of the ,so called 2x2? I have read what you have read and find nothing that can be stated as undeniable facts. I have yet to see anything that Irvine preached while supposedly founding this. No doctrine. Some rash statements he made while others were preaching. Statements of a mentally imbalanced man after he was put out.
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Post by ranger on Jan 30, 2009 14:14:47 GMT -5
Hi lin,
First, I don't think that I used the word "undeniable". Second, I definitely did state that my opinion was based on "what I have read so far". But, I do think that I can answer what is at the heart of your question; I think that when you take W.I.'s statements of his early missionary days (not necessarily 2x2) along with Church(any Church) records, corporate records, and government records that that constitutes "proof", at least of the unique acts recorded in one or more of the above records. Once W.I.'s history is confirmed then you can look at his acquaintances, followers, companions and the like, and if there is an unbroken line to people that we know were/are in "The Truth", then I would think that at that point anyone would have to honestly say that W.I. is the founder of the 2x2 way and/or that he is certainly a part of it's history.
As an aside, you do seem pretty definite in your post...If W.I. was certifiably the founder of the 2x2 way, what would be the issue? Would that be a bad thing?
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Post by rational on Jan 30, 2009 14:26:37 GMT -5
What have you read that makes it undeniable that William Irvine was the sole founder,so to speak,of the ,so called 2x2? I have read what you have read and find nothing that can be stated as undeniable facts. I have yet to see anything that Irvine preached while supposedly founding this. No doctrine. Some rash statements he made while others were preaching. Statements of a mentally imbalanced man after he was put out. I think we are looking at plausible deniability.
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Post by lin on Jan 30, 2009 15:08:42 GMT -5
Ranger, I would say no as for being a bad thing.If he was the founder though wouldn't you think some of his companions would have gone with him?
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Post by ranger on Jan 30, 2009 15:37:26 GMT -5
lin,
Not necessarily. It is whatever history determines it to be. I am still researching so I cannot handily say.
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Post by lin on Jan 30, 2009 16:16:58 GMT -5
Lots of luck
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 30, 2009 17:33:57 GMT -5
It's not that they dont believe he existed--many will tell you he was just a worker (who went off track...with various explanations on how that was).
Another view that many subscribe to is that WmI was just one of several men who "came together" at the same time with the idea of getting back to basics of the Bible. In other words, that it wasn't started by ONE man, but by several men...more or less, like George Walker stated in his 1942 letter to the US Gov.
Believers of this theory deny that WmI was the founder...and see him as one of a group of men who founded the F&W belief system. This view of WmI allows justification for the others to put him out...
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Post by lamebeaver on Feb 3, 2009 9:06:52 GMT -5
Read the secret sect book it states clearly that it was determined that william irvines role in the movement would be denied & the mind set remains
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