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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 8:36:45 GMT -5
Take it from me npdw you have NOT got my back up. Rather than hitting a nerve or two I just think you "have a nerve" posting the way you do.
If you are "quite serious" as you allege and want to be taken very seriously, that is all the more reason for people to be wary of you. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I have ceased to put any credence on your posts.
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Post by ronhall on Jul 3, 2009 8:41:41 GMT -5
Sapphire, I'm not at all suggesting anyone is lying. If people have dug stuff up, fine, so be it. It doesn't puzzle me so much as sadden me to hear "that some traditions are presented as doctrine and conditions for salvation in certain countries and not in others?" I've been on the receiving end of the whole" we're the only right way, salvation thru the workers", etc etc just as you are/were. I just don't agree with it, and many don't as well. Doesn't mean that we can't have beautiful fellowship with the friends and workers both in and out of the meeting. Doesn't mean that the meetings can't be spiritually enlightening and very helpful. Doesn't mean that the friends and workers aren't some of the most wonderful people i've met. Doesn't mean we can't all still get along in love and harmony. Doesn't change what Jesus did for all of us. Workers right here still frown on TVs and radios and have certain thoughts on what our dress codes should be. The difference is we're not bullied into thinking they're conditions for salvation. If you want to have a TV you go ahead. Radio, go ahead. So it saddens me yes, that you people seem to have been so indoctrinated and I'm thankful we haven't been. I do know however, that with prayer and searching/meditation on the scriptures and aiming for a closer walk with God anyone will see what the conditions for salvation are because God will reveal them to you; therefore why should you be too bothered by humans' interpretations. We've never been taught that what the workers say supercedes what God says, actually one thing you always hear in our gospel meetings is "Don't take my word for it, search the scriptures for youselves";so what DOES baffle me is that in this day and age people don't get that. Ram if your back is up clearly I've hit a nerve or two. My apologies. But take me very seriously, because i'm quite serious! While your observation is generally true in many, if not most, areas today, my experience is it hasn't always been that way. Consider the radio -- When I was in grade school (early 50's) my grandparents on both sides each had a radio. But that radio was only used to listen to the news and was tightly controlled. Prior to World War II radios were expressly banned. The desire to get war news in remote areas was what cracked that ban. Now the TV -- Obviously the computer and especially its use to propagate e-mail cracked the ban on TV. This is not complete yet, as there is still a stigma against owning a TV and spending time watching TV programming among many in the fellowship. The real situation is that there is a reluctance to embrace the idea that the social portion of our fellowship, although designed around a lifestyle to enhance spiritual growth, is separate from the spiritual part. That is not to say that such things as excessive radio or TV use should not be frowned upon, but to present the ownership of such as if it were choosing to turn one's back on Jesus puts this in an interesting light. One needs only to read in the four Gospels portions of scripture dealing with Jesus conversations with the Pharisees concerning their tenacious adherence to their traditions that became rules. Could one project this interchange into our contemporary social-spiritual viewpoints within the fellowship? And what might the admonition from on high be? On another note -- while it is true that digging through the history of our fellowship exposes the antics of some interesting characters and events along the way, how about the antics and events of the Old Testament that paved the way for Jesus? Should reading of the Old Testament be suppressed? How about limiting such reading to only those within the genealogy of Jesus? Would that help?
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 3, 2009 9:00:24 GMT -5
Take it from me npdw you have NOT got my back up. Rather than hitting a nerve or two I just think you "have a nerve" posting the way you do. If you are "quite serious" as you allege and want to be taken very seriously, that is all the more reason for people to be wary of you. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I have ceased to put any credence on your posts. I would be rather surprised if people weren't "wary" of me. Here's this person all of a sudden who doesn't buy into your wranglings and moans of how you've been psychologically damaged for life because of this wicked church! You must feel infiltrated by the enemy!! The voice of reason and common sense is always viewed as such. How on earth do you expect to sit here year after year feeding off each other's negatives and think that anything positive will ensue? If you're so damaged quit feeding on what you claim damaged you in the first place. THATS JUST PLAIN COMMON SENSE!
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Post by ilylo on Jul 3, 2009 9:04:06 GMT -5
Take it from me npdw you have NOT got my back up. Rather than hitting a nerve or two I just think you "have a nerve" posting the way you do. If you are "quite serious" as you allege and want to be taken very seriously, that is all the more reason for people to be wary of you. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I have ceased to put any credence on your posts. Ditto.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 9:44:32 GMT -5
Take it from me npdw you have NOT got my back up. Rather than hitting a nerve or two I just think you "have a nerve" posting the way you do. If you are "quite serious" as you allege and want to be taken very seriously, that is all the more reason for people to be wary of you. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I have ceased to put any credence on your posts. I would be rather surprised if people weren't "wary" of me. Here's this person all of a sudden who doesn't buy into your wranglings and moans of how you've been psychologically damaged for life because of this wicked church! You must feel infiltrated by the enemy!! The voice of reason and common sense is always viewed as such. How on earth do you expect to sit here year after year feeding off each other's negatives and think that anything positive will ensue? If you're so damaged quit feeding on what you claim damaged you in the first place. THATS JUST PLAIN COMMON SENSE! So, the voice of reason and common sense is synonymous with "wariness" according to your philosophy? Hmmmm? Ever thought that damaged people, particularly those who are psychologically damaged, do not come here to feed on the things that damage them, but rather through exchanging views and experiences, undergo types of therapy by working through their various issues? In doing so, they receive empathy, understanding and encouragement all of which helps them immensely! Of course, if you have no experience of this and because it does not sound good to you, you have no patience with it, so therefore you think it is normal that your voice of reason and common sense is met with wariness. I will be kind. By your own admission you are clearly very inexperienced in and ignorant with regards to many of the issues discussed here and thus you would be better sitting back and learning, rather than trying to teach.
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 3, 2009 17:09:10 GMT -5
My dear Ram, I do appreciate your kindness in so nicely suggesting that I shut up. At some point in time I plan to...I've ruffled more feathers than I had bargained on..this fox will soon leave the chicken coop!
If I never knew what the phrase "Misery loves company" meant, I surely do now.
There's such seriousness and protectiveness of your precious "issues"; I'm sorry, but it's quite amusing. Were someone to offer to wave a wand and rid you of these issues I think many of you would refuse that offer. Maybe you could highlight some of these therapeutic posts for all I've seen so far are: Moans about the cover-ups Moans about the lies Moans about the excommunications Moans about no tv Moans about no radio Moans about indoctrination. And the list goes on. In short, moans and more moans. I don't doubt that these things happened. I doubt you want to get over it. The sad part is that you really regard what you see here as helpful. In life, each of us will be lied to, hurt, deceived, ridiculed, rejected......and it will hurt most when it's from those we love and trust. Put it behind you and move on. Quit dwelling on it, covering it with pretty words and phrases like"exchanging views and experiences, working through issues, undergoing types of therapy..." you get my drift.
And yes, reason and common sense is met with wariness for the simple reason that it's not recognised as reason and common sense.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 3, 2009 18:09:28 GMT -5
What a hypocrite you are.
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Post by electbygrace on Jul 3, 2009 20:00:05 GMT -5
There's such seriousness and protectiveness of your precious "issues"; I'm sorry, but it's quite amusing. Were someone to offer to wave a wand and rid you of these issues I think many of you would refuse that offer. I'm sorry npdw but you don't come across as having any empathy or even love that Jesus had for the hurt, the burnt reeds and smoking flax. Jesus never rejected those who the Pharisees despised and rejected. These are the weak, those who the Pharisees were impotent to help with their doctrines and their religious system. Maybe you could highlight some of these therapeutic posts for all I've seen so far are: Moans about the cover-ups Moans about the lies Moans about the excommunications Moans about no tv Moans about no radio Moans about indoctrination. And the list goes on. In short, moans and more moans. Cover-ups and lies, you acknowledge they have happened, it's human nature, yet you seem to imply they should just be overlooked. I suggest moaning is pretty mild to the reaction such evil deserves. Excommunications, for what reasons? There is a right reason, and there are many very wrong reasons based on controlling men and their thinking and wisdom. Anything not aligned with God's wisdom will be opposed by true followers of Christ. Moans about no TV and radio? I rather hope you are joking but I suspect not. Firstly, most in the f&w church today have radios, they are integral and even necessary parts of today's life. Communication is important, sometimes vital. Many have TV, check the younger generation. Almost all have internet access. The moans should be about the rubbish that is much of TV today and how to make right (righteous) choices about viewing and internet use, not archaic blanket bans. Legalism, like who? Yep, those Pharisees again. I don't doubt that these things happened. I doubt you want to get over it. The sad part is that you really regard what you see here as helpful. In life, each of us will be lied to, hurt, deceived, ridiculed, rejected......and it will hurt most when it's from those we love and trust. Put it behind you and move on. Quit dwelling on it, covering it with pretty words and phrases like"exchanging views and experiences, working through issues, undergoing types of therapy..." you get my drift. Moving on is good advice, and moving on with the Spirit leading is even better. But for many, these forums fulfill a need at the various stages of that journey. What would be Jesus' attitude to those here who are hurting deeply? I have my strong feelings that you are a worker npdw. Call it intuition based on years of that 'indoctrination' you mention. Jesus is the great encourager to the bruised, the weak. Look what it says about him: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised." I trust and pray that that can be your ministry too npdw, as you let the Holy Spirit live out the life of Christ in you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2009 5:53:56 GMT -5
npdw, you came on here thinking you had all the answers but in truth you had none! The Charge of the Light Brigade comes to mind.
I never suggested that you "shut up," merely that you sit back and listen, but now that you mention it?
Anyway, my original position was that you are a fake. I have seen nothing to change my mind. You claim to be very serious, in which case you are very seriously wrong! Over and above your manner of posting, you have admitted to being ill-equipped to properly address the various issues at hand. That's why you brush them aside. Does this sound familiar?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2009 5:54:28 GMT -5
My dear Ram, I do appreciate your kindness in so nicely suggesting that I shut up. At some point in time I plan to...I've ruffled more feathers than I had bargained on..this fox will soon leave the chicken coop! If I never knew what the phrase "Misery loves company" meant, I surely do now. There's such seriousness and protectiveness of your precious "issues"; I'm sorry, but it's quite amusing. Were someone to offer to wave a wand and rid you of these issues I think many of you would refuse that offer. Maybe you could highlight some of these therapeutic posts for all I've seen so far are: Moans about the cover-ups Moans about the lies Moans about the excommunications Moans about no tv Moans about no radio Moans about indoctrination. And the list goes on. In short, moans and more moans. I don't doubt that these things happened. npdw Have you ever considered joining the Flat Earth Society? They are always looking for new members and you appear to be exactly the sort of person they are looking for. I attach a link to the online membership form below. I have even attached a paragraph below which you may wish to insert into the box titled “In a short, well-organized essay, please list your reasons for wanting to join the Flat Earth Society.” Matt10 I wish to join the Flat Earth Society because I don’t get out much. I spend my days hanging around on websites with people who moan constantly about their youth and I find myself more and more getting a kick out of this. But they view the world so differently than I do. This is not good for my mental health. I want to find new friends; friends who are able to defend positions that run completely contrary to the evidence; friends who won’t challenge me to provide any rational basis for my views. I want to be able to be taken seriously when I make statements such as ‘the sun revolves round the moon’, ‘the earth is a 6000 year old flying saucer’ and ‘no indoctrination takes place in my church’ I was so excited to read on your website of the three loyal Flat Earth Society members who, during a camping trip to the small African nation of Tunisia, came across a privately-owned photo stand in the isolated northernmost corner of the desert country and who, employing guerrilla warfare techniques learned under Mao Zedong in the early 1920's, were able to effortlessly seize control of the stand and are now using it to distribute pro-Flat Earth propaganda throughout the West African region. I can see me doing that. www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 4, 2009 10:34:59 GMT -5
Ahhh!. Way too much to respond to here. Attacks from every direction. I'm having such a good laugh. Others are as well, believe you me.
You guys keep going with your "woe is me, I have serious issues" attitudes. I pray someday you get the healing you claim to desire. But then without issues to validate your existence, what will, I wonder?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 4, 2009 10:56:55 GMT -5
npdw wrote Ps 1:1 "Blessed is he that...sitteth not in the seat of the scornful.." We have watched people with your attitude come and go over the years...like Ram I would encourage you to read and assimilate information quietly without judgment for awhile until you really understand people and their situations. People here are at all different stages...its not fair to generalize. Ask respectful questions to make sure you understand correctly, and peple will answer you respectfully without attacks. Read the life stories of participants and see where they are coming from--in other words, withhold judgment until you really know many of us. For starters--here are 3 life tories from my family. tellingthetruth.info/testimonies_index/index.phpWhat books have you red? Reflections? Secret Sect? THE Church WITHOUT a Name? etc. What websites about the 2x2s have you read? Have you read John Long's Journal? the Goodhand Pattison's Account of the Early Days ? Stick around for awhile...REALLY listen--give us a chance--before you condemn and scorn--THEN a year down the road, tell us what you've learned and your views. See if your first impressions still hold. Were you born and raised in meetings? Just my 2 cents Cherie K av
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2009 11:01:31 GMT -5
Ahhh!. Way too much to respond to here. Attacks from every direction. I'm having such a good laugh. Others are as well, believe you me. You guys keep going with your "woe is me, I have serious issues" attitudes. I pray someday you get the healing you claim to desire. But then without issues to validate your existence, what will, I wonder? Why do we say the Earth is flat, when the vast majority says otherwise? Because we know the truth.
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 4, 2009 11:19:07 GMT -5
May I add this as well. Proverbs 14:16. ....the fool rageth, and is confident.
This vendetta is consuming your lives. It's actually quite pitiful. Your confidence and attachment to this passion is also sad and pitiful.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2009 11:31:57 GMT -5
May I add this as well. Proverbs 14:16. ....the fool rageth, and is confident. This vendetta is consuming your lives. It's actually quite pitiful. Your confidence and attachment to this passion is also sad and pitiful. Then, in the year of our Lord fourteen-hundred and ninety-two, it all changed. For decades a small band of self-Proclaimed "enlightened" individuals had been spouting their heretical nonsense that the Earth was in fact round. Citing "proof" based on nothing more than assumptions, half-truths and blind guesses, they dazzled the populace with their " . . . undeniable mathematical and scientific evidence . . . that the world is shaped not like a pancake, but an orange!"
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Post by ilylo on Jul 4, 2009 23:58:43 GMT -5
Ahhh!. Way too much to respond to here. Attacks from every direction. I'm having such a good laugh. Others are as well, believe you me. You guys keep going with your "woe is me, I have serious issues" attitudes. I pray someday you get the healing you claim to desire. But then without issues to validate your existence, what will, I wonder? ...and thus the Pharisee prayed with himself...
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Post by ilylo on Jul 5, 2009 0:00:00 GMT -5
May I add this as well. Proverbs 14:16. ....the fool rageth, and is confident. This vendetta is consuming your lives. It's actually quite pitiful. Your confidence and attachment to this passion is also sad and pitiful. Yeah, imagine how pathetic it is that someone would insist that a church which calls itself the "truth" actually tell it. What a concept.
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 5, 2009 12:55:41 GMT -5
Ilylo, honestly don't you have any thing sensible and intelligent to contribute to these topics other than your bitter one and two-liner barbs?
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Post by ilylo on Jul 5, 2009 13:13:35 GMT -5
Ilylo, honestly don't you have any thing sensible and intelligent to contribute to these topics other than your bitter one and two-liner barbs? Well, I suppose I could mimic your 15-line bitter barbs.
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 5, 2009 13:18:03 GMT -5
My dear, I suppose you could try. It would require a bit more brain power than necessary for the one liners though. I look forward to that.
While you're at it, please find a dictionary and research the meaning of bitter. I don't think even my attackers on this forum would use the word bitter to describe me.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 5, 2009 13:24:09 GMT -5
If you think so. Enjoy the moment.
edit: I reviewed your 32 posts. Mostly negative stuff there. You've spent most of your time here sniping at former members of your church. Your actions speak for themselves.
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 6, 2009 11:27:07 GMT -5
Yes I've taken quite a snipe at what I have viewed as stupid, unjust, inflammatory and contradictory comments and attitudes Ilylo. So have you. And I will continue to do so. No doubt so will you.
I will continue to speak out against comments from people who behave as though their experiences are the be all and end all of what this church is about. Chalk it up to that...your experiences.
You speak about mind control and indoctrination....isn't that exactly what you're guilty of with all the nasty and negative things said about the church and it's people? Arent you trying to influence and turn people's minds away? If I knew nothing about this church and read the the things said here, I would be turned off. Please take the moat out of your own eye.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 6, 2009 11:53:43 GMT -5
I will continue to speak out against comments from people who behave as though their experiences are the be all and end all of what this church is about. Chalk it up to that...your experiences.And what about the comments from those who simply share their experiences growing up in the truth fellowship and point out how it negatively affected them? It is obvious that we all had different experiences, and not all of us try to make blanket 'it is wrong' statements. For example my biggest beef is the fact that I was lied to about the history of the church and the unbroken line going back to the shores of Galilee. I had a great family upbringing and was able to do a lot of sports and school stuff unlike many of the posters here. Posting our experiences is just that. It's OUR experiences, and how it has affected us personally. For some that IS " the are the be all and end all of what this church is about" That is what it was like for them. Your experience may be different, and rather than attack the posters for sharing their negative experiences, perhaps you could counter that with your positive experiences. Scott
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Post by ilylo on Jul 6, 2009 12:00:51 GMT -5
Yes I've taken quite a snipe at what I have viewed as stupid, unjust, inflammatory and contradictory comments and attitudes Ilylo. So have you. And I will continue to do so. No doubt so will you. A good majority of your posts have been filled with stupid, unjust, inflammatory and contradictory comments and attitudes. Are you exempt from your own judgment? I will continue to speak out against comments from people who behave as though their experiences are the be all and end all of what this church is about. Chalk it up to that...your experiences. So what? If you think you know better, then tell your side. Lay off with the "grow up" mantra... unless you care to demonstrate first. You speak about mind control and indoctrination....isn't that exactly what you're guilty of with all the nasty and negative things said about the church and it's people? Why don't you identify one of those so-called things and think about why it was said. You seem more upset that people are talking about the problems in your church than you are with the fact that there are problems in your church. Arent you trying to influence and turn people's minds away? ...to truth, honesty, and openness. What's the problem? If I knew nothing about this church and read the the things said here, I would be turned off. Ditto. Your church has problems. Please take the moat out of your own eye. Please demonstrate.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 6, 2009 12:14:34 GMT -5
And what about us who have 4 generations of experience to review and do say it is and "end all of what this church is"?That is fine! I have visited so many places, counties, states, Provence's and such that I forget them all. I have had fellowship in multiple places on each visit. Upon review I can say it is the same all over---Legalism and exclusivity and a works base gospel. Me too. I think the church IS a works based church with legalism and exclusivity. However.... it is no longer my church, and everyone has the right to attend whatever church they desire. The church doesn't gain anyone salvation, that is based on our personal relationship with Jesus/God. I have no problem with those who are in the truth fellowship. As always, my thoughts on that is 'what someone else believes does not affect my salvation'. Scott
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Post by Gene on Jul 6, 2009 20:32:28 GMT -5
And what about the comments from those who simply share their experiences growing up in the truth fellowship and point out how it negatively affected them? ...
For example my biggest beef is the fact that I was lied to about the history of the church and the unbroken line going back to the shores of Galilee. And my biggest beef is the fact that I grew up thinking that all the gays are going to hell and before they get there, they are social pariahs who would be better off dead. Of course, I moved beyond that point of view, thankfully. And I don't blame that point of view on the f&w church in isolation -- I recognize it was (and is) a sociological / cultural / religious symptom of our times. And I'm doing what I can to change it! Part of which means being on this board and being a bit vocal now and then about some of these issues. Am I bitter? No. But I certainly am not going to shut up and go away either. Neither do I expect the Scotts and the Cheries and the Zorros and the Spidermen and the Sharons and the Lindas and the Cleardays and the ilylos and the brads and the id10tees.... etc.... to shut up and go away. This is something that has impacted their lives and they feel moved to be vocal about it. No problem.
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 7, 2009 7:57:12 GMT -5
With some trepidation I say this because I'm really not interested in stirring up any liberal, homosexual passions, or the wrath of any here who subscribe to this way of thinking.
But yes there are people worldwide who believe gays are hellbound etc etc. And for different reasons. I won't say they're any more hellbound than another sinner, what I would say is to not acknowledge sin and to be so diligent in trying to pass it off as anything but, because it "feels good, or you think you're born this way, or you see nothing wrong with it, or whatever the case may be, well, hellbound comes to mind. In other words, whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not, or believe it or not, homosexuality is sinful and unnatural behavior, and God condemns it. So flaunting it and being proud of it rather than repenting, will put you just where the unrepentant sinner is. Hellbound. This is not just my opinion, it's scriptural. You can spend the rest of your life trying to change society's views on this, but fortunately, God's mind won't be changed because His word stands forever.
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Post by scottishviking on Jul 7, 2009 9:14:09 GMT -5
... and God condemns it......This is not just my opinion, it's scriptural....... God's mind won't be changed because His word stands forever. would that be the god of the old testament who required human sacrifice or the god of the new testament who taught forgiveness, love and treating others as we would like to be treated ourselves ?
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