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Post by toffeecrumble on Jan 2, 2009 13:03:37 GMT -5
Nothing spiteful intended, but each to their own.
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Post by kath123 on May 29, 2009 19:48:55 GMT -5
You know I dont normally comment on many things re. this matter BUT now feel a great need to! Having been the partner of someone involved in this cult - and make no mistake it IS a cult - I think its time I spoke out. Please bear in mind I am not intending to upset/antagonise or bully anyone, thank you ! For over 25 years I was the girlfriend-fiancee- then eventually wife of someone who had been brought up this way. I had nothing but respect for these people for most of that time. It impacted on our life together, I cant say it didnt, he would be at meetings 3 times a week, I was left home with the children. Didnt matter if one or all of us were ill, meetings came first, if Christmas fell around special meeting time, guess which came first ! Convention time, we never saw him except when he came home to sleep. We couldnt go out as a family on Sunday afternoons, nor could I hang washing out..........the list was endless. So.....................imagine my surprise when my (now ex) husband decided to stop going to meetings - nobody wanted to know him really. These are the GOOD people, the same people who were having extra marital affairs, were drinking alcohol, owned and watched televisions, had radios, cd players etc. Wore make up and coloured their hair - but not when the workers were around - swore and blasphemed. I only feel ashamed of myself for letting these people influence my thoughts early on in the relationship and for allowing them to make me feel inadequate because I wasnt part of their 'gang'! It all fell into place for me when within the space of a couple of months of him leaving, he literally almost died and not one of them came to see him.................very christian indeed. As for the preachers - theyve lost the plot and lost sight of what they should be doing, spreading the word according to the bible, not according to themselves - hypocritical, egotistical and full of their own self importance. Now Ive got that off my chest I should feel a whole lot better !!!!!!!!!!! Regards
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Post by emy on May 29, 2009 22:52:31 GMT -5
<< So.....................imagine my surprise when my (now ex) husband decided to stop going to meetings - nobody wanted to know him really. >> Was that before or after your marriage ended? It sounds like he was a faithful believer and the "others" were hypocrites. I'm sorry your exposure was so tainted. I would feel safe in saying that not many places are like that, but that doesn't change that this was your experience. {{{Kath123}}}
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Post by kath123 on May 31, 2009 16:40:41 GMT -5
Hi Emy, that was before our marriage ended.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2009 17:01:51 GMT -5
I only feel ashamed of myself for letting these people influence my thoughts early on in the relationship and for allowing them to make me feel inadequate because I wasnt part of their 'gang'! For many years after I left there was hardly a day went past when I didn't feel embarrassed at having let the '2x2 system' influence my thoughts for so many years. I blamed myself. How could I have been such a fool? How on earth could I believe such nonsense? How did I end up being part of such a ridiculous belief system? Of course I know now that it was all pretty much down to an unfortunate combination of an accident of birth and the lottery of life. In a lot of ways I didn't have a choice. Of course I did have a choice but not in the same way that a person completely independent of the influences I was under would have a choice. You may have had a choice but not in the same way that a person completely independent of the influences you were under had a choice. I made a conscious decision that I wouldn’t involve any of my non-professing girlfriends in my professing life. Even in hindsight it still seems very wise. Unfortunately you didn’t have such a liberty and therefore you might ask yourself what option did you really have? I knew of a few non professing people who became involved with professing people; rarely was the relationship a model one which the 2x2 workers would have approved of but I always admired the lengths to which the non-professing person went to make the relationship a success. Some actually professed, some attended meetings as a kind of honorary member, others, while not attending, encouraged their children to attend. The most ridiculous scenario was played out in gospel mission when a pretty non- professing girlfriend stood up in a completely inappropriate outfit and at a completely inappropriate time in a ludicrous attempt to profess. Rather than be ashamed perhaps you should take comfort in the lengths to which you went to make the relationship a success. Any shame should lie at the door of those who should be ashamed at the predicament in which you were placed. Matt10
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Post by kath123 on Jun 1, 2009 18:12:58 GMT -5
Thank you Matt10 for your reply. It all leaves a rather bitter taste in my mouth still unfortunately. When I think of the times his religion took precedent over our children, our relationship and everything else it felt! It was hurtful when he finally admitted that he had been going to meetings to please his parents and not for any other reason really. Hey ho!
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jun 30, 2009 19:56:44 GMT -5
While not discounting the negative experiences you( and others) have had, is it really intelligent thinking to decide that a group which has thousands of members worldwide is a cult because of your bad experience? You will be very surprised to know that reading these posts i'm appalled at some of the attitudes and behaviours people are saying they have encountered among members of this group and the workers...do you know why? Because in my part of the world none of this happens. Thank God for that. And it's the same fellowship..isn't that amazing? Clearly it's culture thing!!Because you've had the misfortune to encounter a culture of people who have given this group a bad name does not make it a cult. Please understand that.
Where' i'm from we're here to serve God and all the nonsense of brainwashing and excommunicating and lies and deceit and dumb issues of hair and radios and televisions, they don't exist for us. And because we're not perfect people and therefore from time to time little issues will arise, we pray about them, deal with them and move on. A tactic which many people venting on this forum would find helpful and healing. On another note, to those "exes"who take issue with being called bitter, actually you are. When you admit you've left a group decades ago and yet here you are still angry, still wounded, still trying to bring the world over to your way of thinking and hurling criticisms around, hellooo...that's bitterness. Surely you should have moved on by now. Life is no bed of roses, we're all gonna be hurt, betrayed, wounded at some time or the other. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move on. Most of all grow up!!
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Post by ilylo on Jun 30, 2009 20:19:23 GMT -5
While not discounting the negative experiences you( and others) have had, is it really intelligent thinking to decide that a group which has thousands of members worldwide is a cult because of your bad experience? You will be very surprised to know that reading these posts i'm appalled at some of the attitudes and behaviours people are saying they have encountered among members of this group and the workers...do you know why? Because in my part of the world none of this happens. Thank God for that. And it's the same fellowship..isn't that amazing? Clearly it's culture thing!!Because you've had the misfortune to encounter a culture of people who have given this group a bad name does not make it a cult. Please understand that. Where' i'm from we're here to serve God and all the nonsense of brainwashing and excommunicating and lies and deceit and dumb issues of hair and radios and televisions, they don't exist for us. And because we're not perfect people and therefore from time to time little issues will arise, we pray about them, deal with them and move on. A tactic which many people venting on this forum would find helpful and healing. On another note, to those "exes"who take issue with being called bitter, actually you are. When you admit you've left a group decades ago and yet here you are still angry, still wounded, still trying to bring the world over to your way of thinking and hurling criticisms around, hellooo...that's bitterness. Surely you should have moved on by now. Life is no bed of roses, we're all gonna be hurt, betrayed, wounded at some time or the other. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move on. Most of all grow up!! Typical run-of-the-mill 2x2 propagandizing noted. Nice touch, but nothing original.
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Post by Gene on Jun 30, 2009 21:11:59 GMT -5
npdw, maybe it's a matter of definitions. M-W online: "BITTER indicates deep, virulent, implacable resentment and hate."
I think I could count on one hand, minus a few fingers, the people on this board who, imo, from time to time exhibit those traits. By far, the exes that I encounter here do not fit that description.
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 1, 2009 7:10:43 GMT -5
Not sure the propagandizing remark makes any sense, but anyhow.
Gene thanks for the definition because it certainly serves to cement my point. Please note however that i'm speaking about exes on this as well as other forums and websites; I'm sure you're aware there're several. Believe you me, you'll get a taste of the "deep resentment and hate" of your definition.
What I'm saying, and this is strictly generally speaking for those who will think this is a pro-two by two post, is that it's a sign of bitterness and of not having found closure when years after an experience it's still fresh in your mind and so many waking hours are spent trying to turn people's minds from whoever or whatever your experience was with. Realise the damage is going to be to yourself, because your "target" is happily going along, life as usual while you're there decades on, still venting! As offensive as the word is to some, that's bitterness. Imagine your spouse did you wrong, really hurtful and damaging, what do you do? Spend the rest of your life bad-mouthing him or her to whoever will listen? Conclude that persons of this sex worldwide are evil and try your best to get the world at large to come to this conclusion as well? Do you realise how pathetic that makes you seem? Or get over it and move on? Because you're only hurting yourself, bitterness is a poison!
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Post by Gene on Jul 1, 2009 21:01:28 GMT -5
I don't disagree that there are some bitter people, and that it is unhealthy for them and largely unproductive.
But I'm leery of that word, because I see it applied to people who are not bitter in the least.
Take, for example, a friend of mine who is a former f&w member and has dedicated huge amounts of time and energy to historical research about the f&w church in an effort to provide a counterbalance to what most people hear from the f&w church itself. She never uses the word 'cult' as a descriptor for the f&w. Her mission is not to pull people out of the church. She believes that people can be in the f&w church all their lives and be happy, content, and saved. She does very strongly believe that those who are seeking should have information available to them to read, explore, contemplate... and then come to their own conclusions. Some call her bitter. I think they are mistaken
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 2, 2009 9:47:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure of the word but I won't call her bitter either actually. I would wonder however what's her goal. If you're going to be so actively "dedicating huge amounts of time and energy" on this research, it seems to me that in some way you're seeking to influence people's thoughts and decisions. Why is that her business? Love and care for humanity? I think not. Is she spending equal amounts of time researching other religions? Why the dedication to this one? Food for thought.
My issue with that is very much of what I have seen documented as doctrine about this church has been erroneous, written by exes and therefore negatively tinged and also very steeped in culture. It cannot be doctrinal and therefore factual information if you go outside North America, Australia and Europe( countries I realise are very represented here) and realise that what you guys see as doctrine in your neck of the woods doesn't exist in many other places.
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Post by chester on Jul 2, 2009 11:03:02 GMT -5
I don't disagree that there are some bitter people, and that it is unhealthy for them and largely unproductive. But I'm leery of that word, because I see it applied to people who are not bitter in the least. Take, for example, a friend of mine who is a former f&w member and has dedicated huge amounts of time and energy to historical research about the f&w church in an effort to provide a counterbalance to what most people hear from the f&w church itself. She never uses the word 'cult' as a descriptor for the f&w. Her mission is not to pull people out of the church. She believes that people can be in the f&w church all their lives and be happy, content, and saved. She does very strongly believe that those who are seeking should have information available to them to read, explore, contemplate... and then come to their own conclusions. Some call her bitter. I think they are mistaken Thank you Gene - you could not be more right.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2009 12:59:28 GMT -5
npdw
How very wise not to specify your part of the world where brainwashing and excommunicating and lies and deceit and the dumb issues of hair and radios and television don’t exist; what better way to make your claims impossible to disprove? How very wise not to quote the erroneous doctrinal information that you claim to have seen; what better way of not having to defend that which you don’t dare risk having disproved? How very wise to come here without a single shred of evidence but still have the audacity to question the objectives of those who have dedicated large portions of their lives uncovering the truths that those in authority in your very own church covered up in the name of their God. Do you think this board is a festival of fools? Of course I used to live in the land of lost content too where those who disagreed with the church authorities were deemed to be bitter, unwilling and unsaved. I used to live in a land where everyone who believed what I believed was saved and everyone else was happily bound for hell. I used to live in a land where Mary was a virgin, Edward Cooney was a madman and the world was merely 6000 years old. Tell me, what is your church authority’s goal? And why do they preach that your church is the only church not started by a man? Does it seem to you that there are seeking to influence people’s thoughts and decisions by this? What business have they preaching such nonsense anyway? Why don’t they spend some time researching the accuracy of such statements before preaching them as truth? Why have they such dedication to preaching a lie? What is their attitude to those who have uncovered the facts either back in the days of the ‘Secret Sect’ or on the Internet today? Bitter or not bitter? Food for thought, eh? Matt10
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 2, 2009 14:44:38 GMT -5
Wow. That's quite a bitter ranting there.
Yes, in wisdom I withhold so much. And will continue to do so. Because of "those who have dedicated large portions of their lives uncovering the truths that those in authority in your very own church covered up in the name of their God. " They're not interested in anyone else's opinions or experiences. Especially positive ones. Far be it from me to get in the way of you zealots. You have stated certain things which have taken place in your country, and I have stated those things don't happen here. I have had to accept your word, that those things have taken place there; surely you can accept mine. Simple courtesy. I don't need to present you with any evidence.
There's no question in my mind as to your objectives. And I do pity you, living with that massive amount of psychological baggage. Because anyone dedicating their lives to anything other than something positive for themselves or for mankind HAS to be damaged and burdened in some way.
Were I to tell you countries including mine where these behaviors you rant about don't exist, would you hop on the next plane out to come see and experience for yourself? I doubt it. For then what other worthy cause would you dedicate your life to after?
More food for thought.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 2, 2009 15:57:02 GMT -5
Not sure the propagandizing remark makes any sense, but anyhow. It makes perfect sense. And having read your further ramblings it's easily spot on accurate.
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 2, 2009 16:19:51 GMT -5
To each his own.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 2, 2009 16:32:37 GMT -5
LOL.... non-response noted.
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Post by Gene on Jul 2, 2009 17:15:42 GMT -5
I'm not sure of the word but I won't call her bitter either actually. I would wonder however what's her goal. If you're going to be so actively "dedicating huge amounts of time and energy" on this research, it seems to me that in some way you're seeking to influence people's thoughts and decisions. Why is that her business? Love and care for humanity? I think not. Is she spending equal amounts of time researching other religions? Why the dedication to this one? Food for thought. My issue with that is very much of what I have seen documented as doctrine about this church has been erroneous, written by exes and therefore negatively tinged and also very steeped in culture. It cannot be doctrinal and therefore factual information if you go outside North America, Australia and Europe( countries I realise are very represented here) and realise that what you guys see as doctrine in your neck of the woods doesn't exist in many other places. I should not write for her, but... I would agree there is an intent to influence.... but only IF the other party is interested in exploring the history of the church. I don't see her as the type to plaster windshields at convention grounds with flyers about this evil cult. (Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, either -- the radicals amongst us also serve a function.) You ask "Why is that her business?" ... "why the dedication to (researching) this religion (and not others?)" Second part first: This is the religion (denomination, actually) that she knows and has an interest in. There is nothing in that which warrants suspicion. Academics of any stripe generally have an area of interest, be it narrow or wide. "Why is that her business?" Maybe it's because she feels her life was tremendously impacted by not having access to what she now believes to be the full story about the sect. And maybe she would like others to have the opportunity she did not have - to find the history of the sect, well-researched and presented, in one easy-to-use resource - a web site. I can relate to that. My passion is to make the growing-up process a bit easier for future generations of people like me than it was for my generation (and our predecessors.) Why is that my business? Only because I've made it my business. Perhaps that's true for her, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2009 17:50:36 GMT -5
Wow. That's quite a bitter ranting there. Yes, in wisdom I withhold so much. And will continue to do so. Because of "those who have dedicated large portions of their lives uncovering the truths that those in authority in your very own church covered up in the name of their God. " They're not interested in anyone else's opinions or experiences. Especially positive ones. Far be it from me to get in the way of you zealots. You have stated certain things which have taken place in your country, and I have stated those things don't happen here. I have had to accept your word, that those things have taken place there; surely you can accept mine. Simple courtesy. I don't need to present you with any evidence. There's no question in my mind as to your objectives. And I do pity you, living with that massive amount of psychological baggage. Because anyone dedicating their lives to anything other than something positive for themselves or for mankind HAS to be damaged and burdened in some way. Were I to tell you countries including mine where these behaviors you rant about don't exist, would you hop on the next plane out to come see and experience for yourself? I doubt it. For then what other worthy cause would you dedicate your life to after? More food for thought. I think you need to get out more. Take walks in the countryside and breathe the fresh sea air. I guess a man can spend too many Sunday mornings praying to a God who doesn’t listen with his face embedded in the bars of the back of a dining room chair. Matt10
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 2, 2009 18:00:35 GMT -5
In your head and yours alone those three sentences are relevant and make sense.
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Post by Gene on Jul 2, 2009 18:04:04 GMT -5
In your head and yours alone those three sentences are relevant and make sense. Oh, no. Not his alone. They make sense to me. I, too, spent hours of my youth with my nose pressed into the bars in the back of a dining room chair.
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 2, 2009 18:06:26 GMT -5
And therefore the relevance is..............?
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Post by sapphire on Jul 2, 2009 22:08:39 GMT -5
My issue with that is very much of what I have seen documented as doctrine about this church has been erroneous, written by exes and therefore negatively tinged and also very steeped in culture. It cannot be doctrinal and therefore factual information if you go outside North America, Australia and Europe( countries I realise are very represented here) and realise that what you guys see as doctrine in your neck of the woods doesn't exist in many other places. npdw, What you have seen documented as doctrine about this church WAS (and much that still IS) presented as doctrine in my country. Just because it wasn't in YOUR country doesn't mean that people are lying. Also, does it not bother you at all... or at least not even puzzle you... that some traditions are presented as doctrine and conditions for salvation in certain countries and not in others?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 1:44:27 GMT -5
In your head and yours alone those three sentences are relevant and make sense. Oh, no. Not his alone. They make sense to me. I, too, spent hours of my youth with my nose pressed into the bars in the back of a dining room chair. Gene - did your chair look anything like this? I still have the imprint of these bars on my face. Once I even got my head stuck between the two left-most ones and lost a piece of an ear getting it out. Thankfully no one noticed at the time although someone did mention it afterwards while we were staying behind for dinner. I lied and told them I'd lost it in an accident involving a fridge door. Matt10 chestofbooks.com/food/household/Woman-Encyclopaedia-4/images/A-chair-which-fulfils-every-requirement-of-utility-and-good.png
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 3:25:16 GMT -5
I think it would be a big mistake for anyone (himself included) to take this npdw character seriously. This guy's just posting the way he does simply to get folks backs up.
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Post by Gene on Jul 3, 2009 6:55:33 GMT -5
Oh, no. Not his alone. They make sense to me. I, too, spent hours of my youth with my nose pressed into the bars in the back of a dining room chair. Gene - did your chair look anything like this? I still have the imprint of these bars on my face. Once I even got my head stuck between the two left-most ones and lost a piece of an ear getting it out. Thankfully no one noticed at the time although someone did mention it afterwards while we were staying behind for dinner. I lied and told them I'd lost it in an accident involving a fridge door. Matt10 Yes, yes, that's the one! If you zoom in closely, you will see a nose print on the third rail from the left -- clearly mine. chestofbooks.com/food/household/Woman-Encyclopaedia-4/images/A-chair-which-fulfils-every-requirement-of-utility-and-good.png
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npdw
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Post by npdw on Jul 3, 2009 7:02:12 GMT -5
Sapphire, I'm not at all suggesting anyone is lying. If people have dug stuff up, fine, so be it.
It doesn't puzzle me so much as sadden me to hear "that some traditions are presented as doctrine and conditions for salvation in certain countries and not in others?" I've been on the receiving end of the whole" we're the only right way, salvation thru the workers", etc etc just as you are/were. I just don't agree with it, and many don't as well. Doesn't mean that we can't have beautiful fellowship with the friends and workers both in and out of the meeting. Doesn't mean that the meetings can't be spiritually enlightening and very helpful. Doesn't mean that the friends and workers aren't some of the most wonderful people i've met. Doesn't mean we can't all still get along in love and harmony. Doesn't change what Jesus did for all of us. Workers right here still frown on TVs and radios and have certain thoughts on what our dress codes should be. The difference is we're not bullied into thinking they're conditions for salvation. If you want to have a TV you go ahead. Radio, go ahead. So it saddens me yes, that you people seem to have been so indoctrinated and I'm thankful we haven't been. I do know however, that with prayer and searching/meditation on the scriptures and aiming for a closer walk with God anyone will see what the conditions for salvation are because God will reveal them to you; therefore why should you be too bothered by humans' interpretations. We've never been taught that what the workers say supercedes what God says, actually one thing you always hear in our gospel meetings is "Don't take my word for it, search the scriptures for youselves";so what DOES baffle me is that in this day and age people don't get that.
Ram if your back is up clearly I've hit a nerve or two. My apologies. But take me very seriously, because i'm quite serious!
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