ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 5, 2008 4:16:26 GMT -5
You know the initial point of this thread was Odon's contention that the U.S. is no longer a Christian nation.
On the face of it that contention doesn't seem to stand up...after all about 80% of adult Americans identify themselves as "Christian". However one in every four pregnancies in our country is terminated by abortion. One in approximately four African American males over the age of majority is or has been incarcerated or caught up in the web of our criminal justice system which overwhelmingly discriminates against the impoverished (take it from a former public defender). Approximately 55 million adult Americans have no form of health coverage in the richest nation on earth. Perhaps the argument should be whether or not we are even a moral nation much less a Christian nation.
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Post by pianoman on Dec 5, 2008 4:25:00 GMT -5
Exellent point DD, I find it odd that we have the corrupt, alcoholic, womanizing, perverted politicians, trying to legislate morality to me. Kinda like letting the fox guard the chickens!
pianoman
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ddowdy
Junior Member
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 5, 2008 7:45:29 GMT -5
We can certainly agree on that pianoman. Additionally, your analogy about the politicians seems particularly apt in these current days of financial "bailouts".
I don't know if anyone else has been paying attention but I find the actions of our government officials with respect to the recent 700 Billion dollar bailout of the financial industry nothing less than criminal. Secretary Paulsen went up to the Hill and told Congress a story about what he intended to do with that money. In return he was basically handed a check. Now that the money is in hand he is dispersing it in a different manner than he detailed to Congress. Criminal! I know that a great many of us have our doubts about Obama but he is now our President and here is hoping that he will govern with a greater measure of both transparency and integrity.
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2008 13:06:31 GMT -5
From Rational: No, it comes from the same source as the majority of your material, David Barton and internet lists of pro-christian quotes. Barton has repeatedly had to retract some of his questionable quotes, including some he created by Madison.More lies. I didn't know who Barton was until you mentioned him. You know how to get the cite. You have already admitted to me that you are a liar...PM me back with the rest of it and you get the cite. Whether you knew about David Barton or not, the material you have been quoting is much the same as the material he has been manufacturing. I mistakenly thought you were reading the posts in this thread. The first mention of Barton was by ariandgabe in Reply #34 on Nov 20, 2008, at 1:59pm. There were follow up posts refuting Barton's information and pointing out the manufactured quotes. But there is no need for you to read any of that - you would never want the facts to get in your way. I do know how to find data and never said I didn't. It is just unusual for a person to present quoted material without giving the author credit and I thought you might have overlooked inserting the references. I guess not. You continue to claim these founding fathers were christians setting up a christian nation and I have presented a number of references that show this is not the case. And, once again, you make a claim nothing to back it up. You may know but I certainly do not nor have ever claimed so. I see the name calling, the personal attacks, the gainsaying, but I do not see any substantial data that refutes what I have posted. I fear the humiliation you sense is nothing but projection on your part. I only follow your lead. The debate was regarding the founding fathers. You have tried to limit the founding fathers to what most claim to to be the framers of the constitution in an attempt to remove Paine and Jefferson from the mix. It was a transparent move but accomplished little. Of course you tire. It requires reading and understanding, something you have clearly indicated you have not been doing by admitting you had not heard of Barton until I mentioned him. However, if you feel you have made your point to your satisfaction then you should by all means walk away. If you do continue to post and I find the posts to be in error, as has been the case in the past, I will reply.
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 5, 2008 20:22:32 GMT -5
“There were follow up posts refuting Barton's information and pointing out the manufactured quotes. But there is no need for you to read any of that - you would never want the facts to get in your way.”
There is no need for me to read your drivel. I didn’t use that material nor did I use anything that was “manufactured”. It is abundantly clear that every time I present evidence to support the facts I have presented, you impugn the source or claim without evidence that it has somehow been “manufactured”. The facts don't get in my way, the facts are my way. As I have said, you are a liar. You employ deception as your principal debate tactic.
Quote: Perhaps it it time for you to specifically define your version of christianity so we are both addressing the same thing. Next you will be telling me that when Franklin said he was a deist that he really was confirming he was a christian.
You just can't get it right can you?
“I guess not. You continue to claim these founding fathers were christians setting up a christian nation and I have presented a number of references that show this is not the case.”
What I claim is that the overwhelming majority of the men who founded this nation were Christians and that they founded this nation upon many Christian precepts and principles. As far as it being a “Christian” nation, I have never denied that these same men always intended the separation of any church or religion from the affairs of state. However, one could still maintain that the U.S. was a “Christian” nation at the time it was founded by virtue of the fact that the vast majority of its citizenry in addition to its leadership were practicing Christians. You have continually misrepresented what I said in your attempts to reframe the debate and obscure the initial points of contention.
I have literally presented a parade of important Christians from the era of our nation’s founding while you continue to rely on a mere handful of individuals none of whom you can establish as either not being Christian or, not recognizing that this nation was founded under God and in accordance with many Christian precepts and principles. Men like Alexander Hamilton who worked with Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society whose stated purpose was to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton believed were most responsible for America’s greatness. They were according to Hamilton:
(1) Christianity (2) a Constitution formed under Christianity. “The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.” On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.” "For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention
Men like Patrick Henry, "The Revolution's Orator".
“This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.” —The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
Men like John Hancock, he of the famous signature.
“In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.” "A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"
Men like Jedidiah Morse.
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them." Letter to Dr. William Mason, 24. Oct. 1793
Men like Benjamin Rush.
“I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America] “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.” “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”
"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education” Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787
I believe it was you, rat., who mentions Thomas Paine. What might he have had to say about Christianity and its precepts and principles?
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.” “ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” Thomas Paine, “The Existence of God--1810”
You also mention Thomas Jefferson whose regard for the precepts and principles of Christianity cannot be questioned or impugned.
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.” “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.” "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
When I was growing up I boxed and one of the training devices we used was a double ended bag. When you struck the bag it came back at you in a different direction. You Professor rat., remind me of that bag, so I will have to wait and see which direction you go off toward now…how you will try and reframe the argument now and then pop-snap-pop! I will handle you again.
Quote: I really don't think that the small band of admirers you have think that much less of you...after all many of the qualities you display (deceptiveness, circular logic, prevaricative creativity, etc.) are traits they likely have great regard for.
“And, once again, you make a claim nothing to back it up.”
This is not a claim…”I really don’t think….” and, “traits they likely have great regard for”. Those are opinions.
Quote: We both know how you treasure the status they accord you.
“You may know but I certainly do not nor have ever claimed so.”
I didn’t say you claimed anything…I said you knew and you do. Anyone who looks back over a history of your activity on this site quickly understands that your presence here is almost completely ego driven.
Quote: Hopefully it is still mostly intact. This is most likely the end of it for me...humiliating you is beginning to bore me and, in truth, pianoman's last post has me feeling a little sad for you and, a lot sorry for you.
“I see the name calling, the personal attacks, the gainsaying, but I do not see any substantial data that refutes what I have posted. I fear the humiliation …. “
I know you do Professor (Ricker isn’t it?) but don’t worry…I will only shred your dignity not take every shred of your dignity. Oh and genie still digs you…I know it isn’t like having an anatomically correct groupie but hey…sometimes it be like that huh?
Quote: Quit your practice of always trying to reframe the debate topic...in fact just quit. I for one, am tiring of you.
“I only follow your lead. The debate was regarding the founding fathers. You have tried to limit the founding fathers to what most claim to to be the framers of the constitution in an attempt to remove Paine and Jefferson from the mix. It was a transparent move but accomplished little.”
I am not going to limit anything. You have a valid point in that both Paine and Jefferson despite not attending the Constitutional Convention should, along with a number of other gentleman be considered founding fathers. It does little to change the fact that the majority of this country’s founding fathers were in fact, Christians and founded this nation based upon many Christian precepts and principles.
“Of course you tire.”
You are tiresome rat. However you are just too damned much fun also. You are kind of like the kid whose lunch money you take in school. I know at some point I should probably stop…that you’ve been worked every which way, harder than a Tijuana tart but, you keep popping back up looking for more so, how can I refuse? You are just so damn easy. I mean there you are in one of the nicest places in the American Southwest, an atheist, a skeptic and God only knows what else, yet you choose to spend significant time on a message board devoted to a little known, secretive and small quasi-Christian cult. You are here to get your jollies and I am here to help you. Hopefully my kinder and gentler approach won't leave you so bruised and ill treated.
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Post by Gene on Dec 6, 2008 3:05:41 GMT -5
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 6, 2008 9:24:25 GMT -5
LOL! You've got my vote gene...though I still think the good professor yearns for at least one female groupie.
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Post by rational on Dec 7, 2008 0:27:24 GMT -5
“There were follow up posts refuting Barton's information and pointing out the manufactured quotes. But there is no need for you to read any of that - you would never want the facts to get in your way.”There is no need for me to read your drivel. I didn’t use that material nor did I use anything that was “manufactured”. Well, you are once again wrong. In fact one of the quotes you have posted here was a bogus Barton quote. The Patrick Henry quote: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" is a Barton forgery. www.geocities.com/peterroberts.geo/Relig-Politics/PHenry.html#msquoThere is no deception - the above quote, and others, are bogus. OK. Let's just look at the founding fathers. You claim they were christian and from that statement it appears that your definition of christian differs from the one I was using. I have stated before that I thought part of the problem was that we did not arree on the definition of christian. I have been using the definition put forth by the Nicaean Creed: We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, Of all things visible and invisible.
We believe in One Lord, Jesus Christ the only son of god. God from god, light from light, true god from true god. Begotten not made, of one being with the father, Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, By the power of the Holy Spirit he was made man. For our sake he was crucified died and was buried. He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures And is seated at the right hand of the father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead And of his kingdom there will be no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the lord and giver of life Who proceeds from the father [and son], Through the father and son is glorified, He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church We believe in communion of saints, the resurrection of the dead And the life of the world to come.Does this agree with your definition of christian belief?
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shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
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Post by shushy on Dec 7, 2008 2:00:41 GMT -5
WOW....
Well, I for one would be honored to hold his hand.
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Post by Gene on Dec 7, 2008 12:01:43 GMT -5
WOW.... Well, I for one would be honored to hold his hand. I've lost track. Whose hand? Mine?
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Post by ariandgabe on Dec 7, 2008 13:18:32 GMT -5
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.” “ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labor with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” Thomas Paine, “The Existence of God--1810”
I thank you my heavenly Father that you have never left my side, and that you have sent a friend like Dowdy to help me on this so critical issue, the 'FALL of a Great Nation'
It is good to see the enemy kick and scream and spit venom in anger against the truth, but as any loyal and repentant Christian knows, the truth outlasts lies, and at the end, only your WORD stands.
The Bible IS the WORD of GOD for us now, through it the Lord answers all our questions and needs. When that New earth and that New Heaven is set up, your Words in the Bible will come alive and be no more contained in a 'book', like when the Tabernacle was with your children Israel. It will once again become that 'Tree of Life' that all the nations will come to for healing.
You have made a good stand my dear friend Dowdy, but as you can see, Rational and others are too eager to make that next move from; 'This country, the USA is no more a Christian nation'
To; 'This here USA has NEVER been a Christian Nation'.
The devil knows better then these Christians that 'a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump', so he is doing everything in his power to try and eliminate every trace of Christianity and reference to Christianity, because as in the past, even a few remnants could kindle a big fire, so with the help of servants like Rational, he is trying to stump out those few sparks.
My real fear and concern is for those 'sparks' that they would not just sit there and die-out by themselves, without catching others on fire first.
Luke 18:7-8 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? KJV
Dear sir Rational, I ask you as a fellow human being, not considering what you stand for at the present time, but seeing you as a fellow man who Jesus our Lord has also died for, to consider all that you are forsaking by your stubbornness, and for what? To be counted amongst those that helped bring this Country down?
When it's all set and done, (and we Christians already know it has to happen and what the end is going to be like) do you really want to stand on the side with those that brought this country to its ruin? Will you be found with the torch in your hand before all to see, as the smoke of this once Blessed Country rises toward heaven?
As they will point to you and say: "Look, we turned to him for wisdom, and instead we now see that he is nothing but a low-down criminal, with the evidence still in his hands and on his lips, look what he has done, he lied to us, he mesmerized us with his words, and now we all suffer for believing in him!" Here is a glimpse of the 'result' what you are doing;
Rev 18:11-20 11 "And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: ... 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.' Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying,'What is like this great city?'
19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'
But to comfort those that have fought a good fight He says:
20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!" NKJV
It will happen, because the Lord said it will happen with or without you, but the question is; where are YOU going to stand, on the side of Satan or with the few who will stand with their battle scars before their Creator?
Just like all those poor firefighters who rushed into the Twin Towers, risking their lives to put out a fire that was NEVER meant to be put out, so are we few Christians fighting a fire that was started by the devil to devour everyone that resembles the Creator.
Don't you see my dear friend that THAT includes you too? Do you think by taking the side of Satan that he will somehow let you live a happy life? Look at those that helped Hitler into power, as soon as he was in command, he executed them. Every human was and remains Satan's enemy, that is every human that was created in the image of God is on his termination list.
First he made you believe that God is far off in a distance, and is not watching or even care about you. Then he stands back and watches as you take it from there, and say: "maybe God doesn't even exist?"
This is what I have been saying in this post, Obama said: "This here is no more a Christian country" and then he stood back to see what you say next?
And just like with the idea that God does not care, you have taken 'No More a Christian Country' to 'NEVER was a Christian country'. Satan (and Obama) are rolling from laughter.
Satan NEVER would go that far as to say; 'God does not exist', he only wanted to be LIKE GOD. So having loyal subjects like his human followers, he is overwhelmed with pride.
"If I can't rise to the state of GOD, NO ONE can!" he says with anger and fury. He knows that we were created in God's image, he knows who gets the inheritance, the children do. So he is doing everything he can to make sure that what he cannot have, no one else could either.
Fight on my dear brother Daniel and Pianoman and the rest of you here, and remember that when our body is sick and weak, when we can not depend on our own strength to fight, the Lord is then our only hope in defense.
2 Cor 12:8-9 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.NKJV
So:
2 Cor 12:10 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. NKJV
Lord I pray in this phisycal weakness and through this pains I bare that everyone here would see through the rhetoric of Satan and not be so eager to support him.
This I pray in Jesus name; Amen
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Post by rational on Dec 7, 2008 18:42:00 GMT -5
WOW.... Well, I for one would be honored to hold his hand. I've lost track. Whose hand? Mine? Mine (I hope!).
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Post by rational on Dec 7, 2008 22:09:13 GMT -5
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.” “ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labor with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” Thomas Paine, “The Existence of God--1810” You do know that Paine was talking about the educational system in France at the time, and not the US. Well, if this is what you believe that is all that should really matter to you. I guess that would make me the enemy. But really, what have I done other than post quotes by the people you claim to be christian? Again, if this is your belief regarding the bible, you are all set. Or at least quote people, like Adams, who clearly stated that the Unitred States was not founded as a christian nation. And that document was approved by the whole senate, many who could be considered founding fathers. Take your complaints to them for making the statement. This is a tough one to answer. You do realize that if you do not believe in a supreme being that included both the good and bad variety. You believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being and you are worried that I will defeat this being?!? I stand for quoting the available writings and recorded thoughts of the people in question. Why do you think separating religion and the government of any nation will somehow bring it down? Given my beliefs, I have not even considered this. I think I would want to stand on the side of people who do not believe in a demon haunted world governed by an invisible being who, according to the record, kills children to punish their father. Call me crazy but that does not seem any way to run a country. Who is they? The demons, the demon worshipers, or those who fear the demons? A lot of people have claimed their lord said a lot of things but there is little data to show that what actually happened is any different from chance. At the end of the day I will not be standing with god, satan, elves, or leprechauns because I simply do not believe they exist. Perhaps your god exists for you because you believe. If this is truly the fight for the good and evil why do you fear? Assuming, that is, you believe your god can triumph. I hope you can see that I cannot take the side of an entity that I do not believe in. Of course, anyone could prove Hitler actually existed and he did not have any paranormal powers. You only have these fears if you believe there are these paranormal beings. As children, there are those who fear the monster under the bed or the evil being in the closet. With age people realize these fears are unfounded and most people no longer fear the monster in the closet. Some enjoy horror films and, for the moment, fear the villains or the vampires. Others fear the unknown and create beings to lean on in those moments of fear. If you believe there are good and evil beings fighting for possession of your mind/body/soul that is your right. I simply do not live in a demon haunted world. For me there is no maybe. Just as you would not say "maybe god exists". So Obama makes a statement that can arguably be supported and you reject it out of hand, even though the data may not support your view. Well, the data says god doesn't care. He doesn't care about the children suffering with yellow fever, the thousands that die of malaria every day, the people suffering from abuse, the soldiers dying from explosives planted by others who are doing what they believe their god wants them to do. And no, I do not believe Obama is laughing about it. What possibly would be the point? Of course satan would never go that far. You have created him and he would have to maintain your beliefs. Well, that is your belief and you are welcome to it. I am not sure why you feel so threatened by those who do not share your beliefs if you really think you are on the side of a being who is all powerful and all knowing. How could any harm ever come to you? There you go. You believe your god will defend you. Yet you worry about people? This seems somewhat illogical. Again, with your god on your side even if everyone else in the world was against you there should be no problem. And according to your bible, whatever you pray for in Jesus' name will be granted to you, without qualification and without exception.
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 7, 2008 23:01:45 GMT -5
And still the truth overwhelmingly prevails, the men who founded this nation were by an overwhelming majority...Christians. They identified themselves as such. The citizenry who populated the new country were by an overwhelming majority...Christians. They too, identified themselves as such.
Rat., I think I shall call you Jeffree from now on since we are becoming such good friends...no matter how much you protest, no matter how much you say this or that is not the truth, no matter how many lies you put forth or, how many times you try to obscure the fundamental issues at hand by reframing the debate, these facts remain...facts. The men who founded this nation were by an overwhelming majority...Christians and the new nation was predicated upon many Christian precepts and principles.
What kind of Christians were those men? (Rat. wants to ask.)
I don't know. Furthermore, I really don't care. They identified themselves as Christians. Evidence of their faith exists by a huge preponderance. The fact that you, Jeffree are too intellectually dishonest to simply admit that you overreached and got slapped back into place is not my concern either.
Jeffree you say that the time you spend online trying to antagonize people is insignificant. Perhaps the result of that time is insignificant but, take it from someone who know...no time is insignificant.
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2008 0:11:13 GMT -5
And still the truth overwhelmingly prevails, the men who founded this nation were by an overwhelming majority...Christians. They identified themselves as such. The citizenry who populated the new country were by an overwhelming majority...Christians. They too, identified themselves as such. You will need to define what you consider christian. To discuss this with you until you give your definition of christian is meaningless. If you believe someone who does not believe in the virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, any of the miracles, or the resurection as a christian leads to a very different discussion than believing a christian to be defined by the Nicaean Creed. So did Hitler when the occasion benefited him. You stated earlier that there were people who called themselves christian that you did not consider to be christian. So which statement was the accurate one? The one above stating you accept people as being christian if they identify themselves as christian or the earlier one that stated you detest some christians who you believe have distorted the message of Jesus. People who, for example, do not accept the divinity of Jesus, his miracles, or his resurection. As does evidence of their specific beliefs. T. Jefferson, one that you proposed was christian, edited all paranormal acts of Jesus out of his version of the bible. As you would like to believe. Your inflated ego leads you to believe you have "slapped " someone into place when all you have really done is stamp about like an adolescent who hasn't gotten their own way and believe somehow they have carried the day. The truth is you are using a variable definition of christianity which would classify Mormans and Muslims as christians. Until you explain what you consider to be a christian belief you are just blowing smoke and hoping no one will notice. As usual, you have misquoted and misrepresented what was posted.
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 8, 2008 5:09:51 GMT -5
“You stated earlier that there were people who called themselves christian that you did not consider to be christian."
No, wrong. There you go again Jeffree...that lying habit is a bad one. What I have said is pretty straightforward and shouldn't be hard to follow even for someone of your rather limited intellect.
So which statement was the accurate one? The one above stating you accept people as being christian if they identify themselves as christian or the earlier one that stated you detest some christians who you believe have distorted the message of Jesus. People who, for example, do not accept the divinity of Jesus, his miracles, or his resurection.”
Fact is Jeffree that I disapprove of a good many Christians for whatever that is worth. Doesn’t mean they aren’t Christians. Again, you are lying, distorting and attempting to reframe the debate. Tsk…Tsk…will you never learn?
“As does evidence of their specific beliefs. T. Jefferson, one that you proposed was christian, edited all paranormal acts of Jesus out of his version of the bible.”
And yet, he still maintained that he was a Christian. Besides, even if I were to allow you Jefferson, Franklin and a handful of others, the fact remains indisputably clear that the overwhelming majority of the men who founded this nation were Christians and they based much of the new nation upon Christian precepts and principles. That is incontrovertible, in fact it is only very recently that a select few such as yourself who would strive to rewrite American history have even attempted to peddle this tripe in the marketplace of ideas.
“As you would like to believe. Your inflated ego leads you to be is you are using a variable definition of christianity which would classify Mormans and Muslims as christians. Until you explain what you consider to be a christian belief you are just blowing smoke and hoping no one will notice. You believe you have "slapped " someone into place when all you have really done is stamp about like an adolescent who hasn't gotten their own way and believe somehow they have carried the day.
The truth is you are using a variable definition of christianity which would classify Mormans and Muslims as christians. Until you explain what you consider to be a christian belief you are just blowing smoke and hoping no one will notice.”
Poor Jeffree…you wouldn’t know the truth if it woke up next to you. My inflated ego? Jeffree, if your IQ matched your hat size you may have turned out to be more than a washed up Community College hack. The truth is I am not using any definition of Christianity other than the fact that it is what these men identified themselves as. I choose to believe them, you choose to call them (and me) liars because it suits your atheist agenda.
"Blowing smoke and hoping no one will notice?"
Yes that is precisely what YOU are doing Jeffree. Little projection no doubt?
"Jeffree you say that the time you spend online trying to antagonize people is insignificant."
“As usual, you have misquoted and misrepresented what was posted.”
No, as usual you (Jeffree) have distorted and misrepresented what I posted. The full quote before you butchered it to serve your own prevaricating purpose was:
“Jeffree you say that the time you spend online trying to antagonize people is insignificant. Perhaps the result of that time is insignificant but, take it from someone who knows...no time is insignificant.”
Perhaps your time Jeffree would be better spent trying to more effectively relate to your Community College students who haven’t rated you too highly in recent student evaluations according to the information available to me.
Attempting to paint me as someone who stamps about like an adolescent when I haven’t even hurt you Jeffree…yet, is ludicrous. The only truth about me that is applicable to this argument is that, yes it is true that I dislike pompous, arrogant, overstuffed pseudo-intellectual clowns to the point of being prejudiced. That means you Jeffree.
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 8, 2008 5:12:58 GMT -5
Hey there Odon my brother...it is good to see you back in action. I have missed you. You are a good man O.
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shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
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Post by shushy on Dec 8, 2008 11:01:45 GMT -5
Yes, dearest.
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2008 12:46:00 GMT -5
“You stated earlier that there were people who called themselves christian that you did not consider to be christian."No, wrong. There you go again Jeffree...that lying habit is a bad one. What I have said is pretty straightforward and shouldn't be hard to follow even for someone of your rather limited intellect. I apologize. I had mistakenly attributed a post by ariandgabe to you: Nov 17, 2008, 11:10am, ariandgabe wrote: Just because someone calls himself Christian, does not mean they are. (You shall know them by their fruits)
Well, I have learned that you can detest some of your fellow christians, such as those involved with the slaughter of Jews and non-christians during the inquisition and crusades, yet still consider them to be christians. Except he didn't. In Works, Vol. iv Jefferson wrote: (Page 365) "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter"
He continues: "If we could believe that he [Jesus] really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods, and the charlatanism which his biographers [Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,] father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations, and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and the fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind that he was an impostor".
And yet after he says this, you still consider him a christian. Now that you have revealed your method of determining if the historical leaders were christian or not it is clear that further discussion is meaningless. You believe the mere mention of christianity by a person makes them a christian. Your claims in this paragraph illustrate the fact that you have nothing to back up your contention. The truth is - you do not have a lot of data to support your premise. You are now saying that the founding fathers were christians because that at some point they used the word christian in their writings. You have condemned Paine to christianity because, he wrote about the education system in France and mentioned christianity. By your method, my mentioning the Golden Rule as stated by Jesus as a good way to guide one's morals would, for you, place me in the christian camp. I was pointing out the error in the first sentence and had isolated that phrase. You represented me as saying that the time I spent ..."online trying to antagonize people is insignificant". I did not say that. I did not misrepresent what you said - I quoted it directly. Knowing the complete inaccuracy of this statement only illustrates the quality of the rest of the information, and I use that term loosely, you have been presenting here. I am not attempting to paint you as anything. You have done that all by yourself. It has nothing to do with hurting anyone. It is your behavior. If I were looking for your approval this might have some impact but, given what you have posted to date, your personal attack makes little difference.
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2008 13:17:39 GMT -5
Ahh, My Dear, your eyes have shot their arrows into my heart!
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Post by ariandgabe on Dec 8, 2008 15:46:53 GMT -5
Oooh, Shushy there Rational! My kids are around, they might see you.
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Post by ariandgabe on Dec 8, 2008 15:58:11 GMT -5
Well, that is your belief and you are welcome to it. I am not sure why you feel so threatened by those who do not share your beliefs if you really think you are on the side of a being who is all powerful and all knowing. How could any harm ever come to you?
As I have told you before, it would be nice if you learned the Bible a little more my dear friend, but because of your ‘pride’ in your wisdom, God has kept it hidden from you. In this pride, you tell yourself that; ‘you are a smart man, It is NOT me, it just can’t be me, it is the Bible that’s dumb and stupid, that is the reason I don’t understand it. Because of this, I will make sure that no one else will be able to have a reasonable conversation here about it here on TMB, either!’
But I’m afraid it is you Rational. You are just lost when it comes to understanding scripture. This is probably why you are constantly knocking the Bible as soon as you see someone asking questions regarding some passages written there.
Luke 21:34-36 34 "Be careful not to let yourselves become occupied with too much feasting and drinking and with the worries of this life, or that Day may suddenly catch you 35 like a trap. For it will come upon all people everywhere on earth. 36 Be on watch and pray always that you will have the strength to go safely through all those things that will happen and to stand before the Son of Man." TEV
You see, it is not that easy. God does not FORCE us to worship Him, He wants us to work at it also. He wants to build our ‘faith’ up in Him, and allows the evil to attack us, but only that we can bare. There you go. You believe your god will defend you. Yet you worry about people? This seems somewhat illogical. Luke 22:40 40 When he arrived at the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." TEV
Rom 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought NKJV
So not to fall into temptation, we must;
1 Thess 5:17 17 pray without ceasing, NKJV
But we don’t. So we are afraid at times, because of all the temptation in this world. Yes Rational, to you it does sound and seem illogical because you have no idea what is written there. You are lost, and that is just unacceptable to your wise mind.
Again, with your god on your side even if everyone else in the world was against you there should be no problem. Matt 26:41 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." NKJV
That’s why, see what I mean?
And according to your bible, whatever you pray for in Jesus' name will be granted to you, without qualification and without exception.
You are mistakenly assuming the following goes for all people ‘without qualification or exception’;
John 14:13-14 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. NKJV
But it doesn’t. If you could understand the Bible, you would see plainly why?
There are thousands of Blogs and Posts that an intelligent man could spend time on, with people who have the same mental intellect and interest that you have, but NO. Because you are angry that this Book can make a fool out of you every time you read it. In your anger you turned on God with all your hate, spewing your venom on these poor souls who are seeking for answers. Just like Satan; ‘If you cannot have it, then no one can’ and took 1/3 of the angels with him.
And please, don’t give me this ‘I don’t care one way or another in Christianity’, or ‘I just simply don’t believe in a fairytale god’ or that; ‘If you believe there are good and evil beings fighting for possession of your mind/body/soul that is your right. I simply do not live in a demon haunted world.’ etc.. because we know better. What you say and what you are so desperately doing contradicts your claims. Your very presents here give it away. Just look at your posts, and you will see.
But I truly tell you sir, that if you would only humble yourself and ‘PRAY’ before you open this Book of books, all your answers to all your problems are in there, but you will have to step down from your highchair. (Why don’t you PM me so I could help you do that, and maybe you could help me with my problems. As for standing high, it will happen one way or another Rational, God will kick that chair from under you sooner or later).
We don’t get everything we ask for because:
James 4:2-6 You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
"God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." NKJV
I’m not telling you that you should not be here (as some claim I have said) I’m just wondering how long you will torment yourself and others on a subject you yourself admit that you don’t believe in. Just be careful that you do not offend and make one of these little ones to stumble;
Matt 18:6-7 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! NKJV
I will continue to pray for you Rational and the rest of you here on TMB (I hope tto recieve the same from you). Never know, one day you my friend Rational might PM me that you want to come over my house to chat about the Lord and the Bible and the coming tribulations? Boy, that would be real nice. I’d cook you up a real good batch of Hungarian Gulash. (Of course that goes to anyone here as my guest.) I’m praying to see you soon my Brother Dowdy!!! All in the name of Christ: Odon.
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Post by Gene on Dec 8, 2008 16:54:12 GMT -5
Could we have the Hungarian Gulash without the chat about the coming tribulations?
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Dec 8, 2008 19:39:20 GMT -5
Quote: “As does evidence of their specific beliefs. T. Jefferson, one that you proposed was christian, edited all paranormal acts of Jesus out of his version of the bible.”
And yet, he still maintained that he was a Christian.
Except he didn't. In Works, Vol. iv Jefferson wrote:
(Page 365) "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter"
He continues:
"If we could believe that he [Jesus] really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods, and the charlatanism which his biographers [Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,] father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations, and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and the fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind that he was an impostor".
“And yet after he says this, you still consider him a christian.”
No peaches, after he says this:
Thomas Jefferson: In a letter dated 21 April 1803 to a Ben Johnson, Jefferson wrote, "My views are very different from the anti-Christian views imputed to me...To the corruption of Christianity I am therein opposed; but not to the guiding precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished one to be...The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and true to all the happiness of man...I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple in the doctrines of Jesus."
And this:
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.” “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.” "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
I consider him a Christian. And I consider you deceptive and intellectually dishonest.
“Now that you have revealed your method of determining if the historical leaders were christian or not it is clear that further discussion is meaningless.”
Actually rat, further discussion is pointless because you will never convince me of the correctness of your position and, I probably will never convince you of the correctness of my position. However, further discussion is far from meaningless...at least to me.
“The truth is - you do not have a lot of data to support your premise. You are now saying that the founding fathers were christians because that at some point they used the word christian in their writings.”
No, the truth is there is an immense supply of data which supports the facts that I have maintained steadfastly: that the men who founded this nation were by an overwhelming majority Christians and that they founded this nation upon many of Christianity’s fundamental precepts and principles. This is so readily apparent that it should be self-evident to all but the least intelligent and most dishonest. Which of those categories applies to you, rat?
“You have condemned Paine to christianity because, he wrote about the education system in France and mentioned christianity.”
I don’t know if Thomas Paine was a Christian or not. This is the writing in question:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.” “ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” Thomas Paine, “The Existence of God--1810”
Now rat I don’t care if he is writing about France, Timbuktu or Tucson, it certainly sounds as though he might be a Christian too me and, if he isn’t…well, he is certainly favoring Christian precepts and Christian principles.
“By your method, my mentioning the Golden Rule as stated by Jesus as a good way to guide one's morals would, for you, place me in the christian camp.”
I might however say, that rat is encouraging Christian precepts and principles and I would be accurate.
Have no fear my dear rat, I won’t place you in the Christian camp yet. Perhaps on the day when you declare, “I am a Christian,” then maybe I will say you are a Christian. Of course if we are to believe you that all of the founding fathers were lying when they said that they were Christians, perhaps we should also question you as well. The difference for me is that while it is easy for me to believe what those men of such great character and intellect have said, it is difficult for me to believe the words of someone of your character and intellect rat.
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Post by Annan on Dec 8, 2008 20:04:46 GMT -5
I don’t know if Thomas Paine was a Christian or not. Thomas Paine was a Deist. His book, The Age of Reason, is a good read.
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2008 21:17:40 GMT -5
As I have told you before, it would be nice if you learned the Bible a little more my dear friend, but because of your ‘pride’ in your wisdom, God has kept it hidden from you. Well, you continue to believe that premise. If there were a god what would be the reason to prevent people from understanding the bible? On the contrary, the bible is not dumb and stupid. It contains and has inspired some of the greatest art know to man. And I do understand it and know it does contain errors and contradictions. That does not make it any less of a book. Reasonable? When you make a statement regarding some passage that I do not agree with I will question it. Just as I did the case of malaria that you mentioned. Only if you are required to impart some magical potion to understand the words. Only when you make a claim that I cannot see. I usually then ask for some supporting data. No, he just threatens each with eternal damnation. That would be quite a stick. Of course people don't pray without cessation. They have jobs and normal human things to attend. As it turns out, I do know what is written there. I just apply the meaning of the words as used and do not give special meanings whispered in my ear by a supernatural being. No, this does not explain why you fear losing if you really believe god is on your side. I see no qualifications in the text you quoted. I have read all the words you posted. Show me where it mentions an exception. You are in error. The bible does not make a fool out of me. It is a book, written by men. It has the same qualities as War and Peace. Could you explain how I could feel anger towards a being I do not believe in. Could you be angry with the FSM? Nope. You believe differently. Do not project your beliefs onto me. Go ahead and look. You will not see me angry with you or others with whom I have exchanged posts. If you have problems ask them in a thread and I will answer if I believe it would be helpful. Well, we will die sooner or later. God, from my point of view, does not enter into it. The promise made in the bible is empty. The quote you posted was from Jesus. If there were qualifications why weren't they noted at the time? When it was clear the statement was not true the believers quickly rallied and wrote excuses. Discussions with people holding opposing views are the interesting ones. The others are nothing more than a circlejerk. Thanks for the heads up. Do whatever you feel you must. Thank you for the invite.
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Post by rational on Dec 9, 2008 1:34:39 GMT -5
<snip - a lot of quotes regarding Thomas Jefferson explaining how he believed in the teachings of Jesus - <snip> I consider him a Christian. And I consider you deceptive and intellectually dishonest. You fail to see that the teachings Jefferson is speaking of are not those held by the majorities of christians. But then, you have no real definition of a christian other than people stating they admire some christian trait or put forth some christian quote. Well, if you would define what you consider a christian it would go a long way to helping the discussion. However, further discussion is far from meaningless...at least to me. “The truth is - you do not have a lot of data to support your premise. You are now saying that the founding fathers were christians because that at some point they used the word christian in their writings.”Christians according to your definition, i.e., they wrote about christianity at one time or another. Using your definition, I would agree. But then, using your definition muslims are also christian. You have presented the bifurcation fallacy. The superficial look might lead one to think he were christian but Paine was only commenting about the French and their schools. As I noted, I support the golden rule but that does not make me christian. The golden rule is not really a christian principle at all but rather, as is much of the bible, is borrowed from other cultures. This is the sum of duty. Do not unto others that which would cause you pain if done to you.
~ 3000 BCE - Mahabharata - India What is hateful to you, do not to our fellow man. That is entire Law, all the rest is commentary.~ 1300 BCE - Talmud - Judaic Law That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself.~ 600 BCE - Avesta - Zoroastrian tradition Hurt not others in ways that you find hurtful.~ 525 BCE - Tripitaka - Buddhist tradition Surely it is the maxim of loving kindness, do not unto others that which you would not have done unto you.~ 500 BCE - Analects - Confucian tradition Exactly. And the founding fathers did not say they were christian either. Again, the point is they did not say they were christian. They might have referenced christian traditions but remember they were politicians and very often they were telling the people what they wanted to hear. There is another difference. You have not actually examined the character of these "men of such great character". Let's look at just one that you had mentioned earlier as an example of a "christian" - John Hancock. He was a smuggler, a traitor, and a thief. It is estimated, for example, he smuggled well over 1 million gallons of molasses a year, trading with the enemy, and bribing the custom agents to avoid paying taxes. He used the stamp act as an excuse to not pay his vendors in England, in essence not paying them for goods delivered. In the late 1760s Hancock was accused by Adams of capitulating to the British. Once exposed, Hancock canceled his arrangement to recover his assets. Good to know who you consider to be men of great character.
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Post by rational on Dec 9, 2008 1:49:34 GMT -5
I don’t know if Thomas Paine was a Christian or not. Thomas Paine was a Deist. His book, The Age of Reason, is a good read. A deist or perhaps an atheist. But we only have his word and those who knew him. He did mention some christian concepts so he can safely be considered to be a christian, at least by some. You have to understand that if you redefine your terms correctly you can always prove your point. Another short read: Thomas Paine: Of the Religion of Deism Compared with the Christian Religion
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