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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 8, 2008 0:57:31 GMT -5
How would you define or carry out a "spanking"?
Our pastor recently addressed this topic at a conference. He does believe spanking is biblical but I was kind of surprised in how he explained what he thought was "proper procedure".
I cant think of the verse off the top of my head, will try to get that but the steps followed the verse
1. make sure child understands what is expected (and is developmentally able to do it, don't expect 1 yo to pick up living room, etc) but if I remember right he mainly spanked for things like stealing, willful disobedience not every little issue.
2. explain the consequences
3. when they commit the offense, reiterate expectation and consequence
4. when they willfully (not accidentally, unintentionally, etc) commit the offense, then follow up with the spanking.
But the spanking part was not what I expected. 1. He said send them away to a designated place. Be VERY sure you are in control, not angry or upset. 2. Administer 1 "swat" any welts, bruising is CHILD ABUSE and he said he believed that many christians were abusing their children in the way that they administer socalled spankings and thinks it is a shame to them and our faith.
3. Give them time to cry or whatever their reaction is
4. Reiterate parental love.
I am on the fence about spanking. I was physically abused so have been totally against it pretty much forever but I also have 5 kids and there are times time outs, privledges taken away, cleaning as consequences, (I've read all the books!) etc,etc just didn't seem to have the necessary effect. And I do believe it is necessary for the kid to believe you are the one in charge and not them. Sometimes there needs to be a little more. At least with my kids.
I don't want to open a huge can of worms, but what do you think if a spanking was administered in this way? Not angry, with a logical pattern the child is aware of, etc as listed above.
Do the studies that "study" spankings differentiate between "kinds of spankings"?
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aurora
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Post by aurora on Oct 8, 2008 3:43:25 GMT -5
I was also very physically abused in my childhood and I am completely OK with what you wrote about spanking...especially in two points:
Spank only for willful disobedience, not for accidents or mistakes
And never spank out of anger
Also I've heard that you should never spank a child that you haven't bonded with.
In some states it is child abuse to spank with any object other than an open hand.
Maybe I should add that I have never really seen evidence of spanking being effective, as in bringing a child to a state of repentance or having a change in attitude.
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aurora
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Post by aurora on Oct 8, 2008 3:54:11 GMT -5
I should add that I don't think a child should EVER be scolded or spanked in public or in any situation that would be embarrassing or humiliating to the child. I'm under the firm belief that correction should be done in private!
I had this done to me in KMART as a child and it was horrible! People were staring and the more I tried to get scolded in a quieter voice, the more irritated and louder the voice became for trying to shush it a bit! Resulting in stares from farther away! I wanted to crawl underneath a clothes rack! ;D
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Post by lin on Oct 8, 2008 4:16:14 GMT -5
We never spanked our son.We also never had a problem ,that if he was upset , of him hitting other children. I know all children respond differently. We always discussed things,tried to find out why the wrong manner existed. Now we have a little granddaughter 17 months old. She already has time out. I will add this I knew all about raising children until we had one
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Post by rational on Oct 8, 2008 5:21:19 GMT -5
Spank only for willful disobedience, not for accidents or mistakes. Why spank at all? It sounds from this comment, and others expressed in this thread so far, that the main reason is control. The child has a mind of its own, does not do as you say, so spanking is OK. It is behavior modification through the application of pain. I wonder if spanking is a bonding agent. In some states, striking a child is not condoned. Keep looking. Many do. There was a large comprehensive study done out of the University of New Hampshire that collected data regarding hitting children. One of the parts of the survey was a group of questions that were designed to classify the the extend of the punishment. Was the punishment administered with an open hand, fist, stick, belt, etc. Was it administered to the legs, body, face, buttocks, etc. A number of studies have since been done on this data by selecting the group of people you are interested in studying. Follow up studies were also done to look at long term aspects. It is sort of like the Framingham Heart study where the same questions are asked to 10s of thousands of people, without a goal in mind, to gather data than can then be used for a variety of things in the future. Hitting children just doesn't seem to be a good solution for anything.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 8, 2008 7:04:56 GMT -5
Rational, I personally do not know of the study that studied different instruments used but did it study the number of strikes and how the spanking was administered.
Rationally (haha) with the spanker not angry, only one strike, followed with a reassurance of parental love.
Our pastor did make a good point. If the child is angry it us usually going to be because he didn't think it was fair. Example, consequences not explained, parent not following the steps, administered in anger, etc, etc.
I know even if I don't use spankings if I get upset and discipline in anger I have way more problems with them getting angry and feeling it isn't fair and them not coming to repentance, etc.
And I really do think there is a difference in "hitting" and "spanking". Maybe it is all about semantics but hitting to me is something you do when you are angry, kids fighting and they hit, adult hitting a kid in the face (BTW if it is anywhere other than the backside it is hitting in my book!!!). It is probably like using the "cult" word around here. Hitting is an emotion filled word.
Spanking is a process, from the very first explanation to the hugs at the end. It could take hours, even days, depending on what the situation is. (not the spanking itself, but the process, the spanking itself would take like 1 second.)
lin
You made me smile, I can remember as a teenager thinking "that child needs a good spanking". I knew everything about parenting back then, haha! Then I had my first. Spanking was not effective and I started to try and figure out alternatives, but then I never knew it could be a process. I only knew about the hitting stuff I had gotten as a kid.
One thing I do like about our pastor is he addresses the older teenagers. He tells them, if you EVER plan on getting married and having kids, you need to start preparing now.
1. What do you want in a mate. Make a list. Be specific. Not Black hair and brown eyes but stuff like musical, athletic, a believer, etc... 2. How do you want to work through the premarriage courting, dating stuff, kissing, touching, sex, etc. 3. How do you want to raise you kids, school them, discipline them, etc. 4. How do you want to deal with finances, etc
So that when they are getting involved they know what they want and have a plan in place. Sure things happen and you change your plans, compromise with the other person, but I think it is so important for young people to know what they really want and deserve. We never talked about this stuff before I was old enough to get married and there was a lot of heartache involved and things I would have done differently. I didn't even know there were options for disciplining(for example), ya know? Just thought it was spanking or nothing.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 8, 2008 7:12:34 GMT -5
Lin,
Did you have only the one? I am just curious...Did your son ever go to daycare...my older 2 did for a while and let me tell you, it's a jungle out there...at least it is now.
And right now in school in our town, this is the process they expect the kids going into kindergarten to follow. If someone does something to you, you are to tell them you don't like it. Then if they do it again, you are to repeat that you don't like it. IF they do it a third time, you can as an adult for help. So when the kids was bending my daughters fingers back she couldn't tell until the 3rd time. By then she was so scared she would get even more hurt if she told (you know during the 2 free shots she wasn't allowed to tell about) that she wouldn't tell. I really feel that it is unrealistic and damaging to both children. They one being assaulted and the one getting away with it.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 8, 2008 7:23:54 GMT -5
Sorry I am posting so many times, I guess this is a hot topic for me, but
Rational,
You made a comment along the lines "the child has a mind of it's own, doesn't do as you say so you spank". I think it is deeper than that. I am talking of more dangerous stuff than the kid doesn't want to fold his laundry or rake the yard, etc. You know, stuff that if isn't dealt with could land them in jail when they get older. Stealing, the big ones. (and don't forget, it is a process, it isn't like the first time the mess up, straight to the spanking) And, I think it is important for children to realize they are not the ones in control in their house. Do they have input, is it valued,sure, but we insist they are respectful and we as the parents have the final say. If this isn't dealt with at a young age, it can wreak havoc. (this doesn't necessarily need to be "dealt with" with a spanking.)
modified for clarity, hopefully
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2008 7:36:09 GMT -5
I realized very early on in my parenting career that spanking was due to my bad parenting, not my bad kids. So I quit forever after a few with the first.
I resolved that I wanted my kids to do what was right not because they feared pain, or even feared my displeasure, but they would do what was right because it was right. That takes a lot more time and effort for parents, but it's well worth it. It requires spending a lot of time with them, mostly just "example" time, but sometimes it requires a big effort to convince them of what is right and why.......a sales job really. Once they truly "buy into it", they become self regulating.
Spanking is an extremely poor parenting tool. It wouldn't bother me if it was made illegal.
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Post by rational on Oct 8, 2008 7:44:52 GMT -5
Sorry I am posting so many times, I guess this is a hot topic for me, but Rational, You made a comment along the lines "the child has a mind of it's own, doesn't do as you say so you spank". I think it is deeper than that. I am talking of more dangerous stuff than the kid doesn't want to fold his laundry or rake the yard, etc. You know, stuff that if isn't dealt with could land them in jail when they get older. Stealing, the big ones. (and don't forget, it is a process, it isn't like the first time the mess up, straight to the spanking) And, I think it is important for children to realize they are not the ones in control in their house. Do they have input, is it valued,sure, but we insist they are respectful and we as the parents have the final say. If this isn't dealt with at a young age, it can wreak havoc. You need to step back. Why do you think there is any possibility that spanking will work any better just because you judge the offense to be "larger? Respect is not something you can demand. It is something you earn. It is a two way street from the very start. Respect the child and the child will respect the adult. But start sending mixed messages and the child will quickly see through it. Spanking is a case of "might makes right". I doubt very much you would spank your spouse even if they did something you felt was a "huge offense". But I could be wrong. How do you feel about caning like they use in Singapore?
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Post by rational on Oct 8, 2008 7:47:13 GMT -5
I resolved that I wanted my kids to do what was right not because they feared pain, or even feared my displeasure, but they would do what was right because it was right. That takes a lot more time and effort for parents, but it's well worth it. It requires spending a lot of time with them, mostly just "example" time, but sometimes it requires a big effort to convince them of what it is right and why.......a sales job really. Once they truly "buy into it", they become self regulating. Spanking is an extremely poor parenting tool. It wouldn't bother me if it was made illegal. Well, put. With a lot fewer words than I would have used!
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Post by rational on Oct 8, 2008 8:07:05 GMT -5
Rational, I personally do not know of the study that studied different instruments used but did it study the number of strikes and how the spanking was administered. This is addressed somewhat by MacMillan (McMaster University) as well as by the National Family Violence survey.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2008 9:06:32 GMT -5
I see the Brits have decided to respond to this thread. Wednesday » October 8 » 2008 British MPs to push for ban on smacking children Michael Holden Reuters Wednesday, October 08, 2008 LONDON (Reuters Life!) - A cross-party group of British MPs is expected on Wednesday to try to introduce a legal ban preventing parents from smacking their children, a campaign group said. The MPs, headed by Kevin Barron, Chairman of the Commons Health Select Committee, have backed an amendment to the Children and Young Persons Bill calling for youngsters to have the same rights as adults on assault. The amendment aims to abolish the legal defense of "reasonable punishment," said the Children Are Unbeatable! Alliance, which represents more than 400 organizations. More than 100 backbench Labour MPs have signed a private statement demanding the government allow them a free vote on whether there should be a ban, it added. The issue was last debated in 2004 when calls for a complete ban were rejected despite a rebellion by Labour MPs. Instead a compromise measure was agreed which forbids any punishment which causes visible bruising, grazes, cuts or scratches. The government remains opposed to an outright ban but campaigners, including the Children's Commissioner for England Al Aynsley-Green, say the current situation is ineffective and sends out confusing messages. "We must act now to end the legal approval of hitting children," Barron said. "The current law allowing so-called 'reasonable punishment' is unjust, unsafe and unclear. Frankly we are baffled by the hesitation so far about giving a vote on what is so clearly a conscience issue." Last year, ministers said the law, which applies to England and Wales, would remain unchanged after a review found that most parents did not want a complete ban on corporal punishment. "This is one of those principled reforms on which politicians must make a stand whatever the pollsters might say," said William Utting, the Alliance's spokesman. "The law must send the clear message that hitting children is as unacceptable as hitting anyone else." (Editing by Steve Addison and Paul Casciato) © Reuters 2008 Copyright © 2008 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved. CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.
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Post by Gene on Oct 8, 2008 14:29:19 GMT -5
How would you define or carry out a "spanking"? ... there are times time outs, privledges taken away, cleaning as consequences, (I've read all the books!) etc,etc just didn't seem to have the necessary effect. Cleaning as a consequence for misbehaving? Like, house cleaning? As punishment? Yikes.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 8, 2008 14:38:03 GMT -5
Curious what you meant, like Yikes that's harsh or Yikes that's not enough...or Yikes, I would think you would want your kids to clean just becuause they want to not as a punishment
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Post by Gene on Oct 8, 2008 14:56:30 GMT -5
Curious what you meant, like Yikes that's harsh or Yikes that's not enough...or Yikes, I would think you would want your kids to clean just becuause they want to not as a punishment Well, i have no kids, but I was one once, a long time ago, in a far away land. But I'm just thinking that if a kid grows up thinking that cleaning house is punishment, well, will they grow up to have an aversion to cleaning?
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 8, 2008 14:58:53 GMT -5
Dirty mouth (disrespectful etc) =dirty job
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aurora
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Post by aurora on Oct 8, 2008 16:17:15 GMT -5
If you want to have a wild child, take it to a public daycare! Those kids are so naughty and getting worse every day! Those kids know that no one can or will control them! It doesn't take any parent long to realize that they cannot completely control their child's behavior. There was one 2x2 man that looked down on all the teenagers that cut their hair and he was determined that no daughter of his was going to ever cut her hair. Guess what! The only control a parent really ever has over a child's behavior is the child's belief that the parent can control him. That's why it's best imo to pray for God's hand on a child, Him making the child whatever He wants it to be. Children are really God's and not ours anyway. In Heaven they will no longer be our children, but our brothers and sisters. What I see happening in daycare, especially with 2 and 3 year olds-it's not normal to put 10 two-year-olds together with a couple people taking care of them. They think it's fun to imitate the behavior of the worst acting child. These children were designed to grow up in a family of diverse ages, not learning the bad behavior of their peers. Even for schooling children, the small, one-room classrooms of old were so much more beneficial for the younger children (and gave the teacher some help, too). Same thing with having 25 or more elderly people in a care center. This isn't natural. We should be taking care of our elderly in our own homes. (This isn't counting combative Alzheimers patients that cannot be taken care of at home.) Same thing with the sewer systems. To have such a concentrated amount of waste all in one area cannot allow the earth to take care of it naturally. JMO's
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Post by juliette on Oct 8, 2008 17:00:23 GMT -5
Lin, Did you have only the one? I am just curious...Did your son ever go to daycare...my older 2 did for a while and let me tell you, it's a jungle out there...at least it is now. And right now in school in our town, this is the process they expect the kids going into kindergarten to follow. If someone does something to you, you are to tell them you don't like it. Then if they do it again, you are to repeat that you don't like it. IF they do it a third time, you can as an adult for help. So when the kids was bending my daughters fingers back she couldn't tell until the 3rd time. By then she was so scared she would get even more hurt if she told (you know during the 2 free shots she wasn't allowed to tell about) that she wouldn't tell. I really feel that it is unrealistic and damaging to both children. They one being assaulted and the one getting away with it. I work in the school system, and I see this as an issue of a good solution being applied inappropriately. The advice to tell a child to ask someone to stop doing something to them 2 times before going to an adult is fine advice if Tommy is calling you a name you don't like or if he took your pencil. But if a child is being physically harmed, they should be instructed to seek adult help immediately if the other child doesn't stop when asked. It's like if my neighbor plays their music super loud at midnight or throws their garbage in my yard. It would be a great idea for me to deal with them directly first. But if he starts pounding on me, I think I would be calling the police. I knew I wouldn't have to respond to the spanking question, because I knew Rational would take care of that for me! I do agree with whoever posted that we are putting children in situations at a younger age than is appropriate. I think it's best when small children can stay at home with mom, dad, grandparents, good friends, whatever works instead of putting them into large institutional settings. I've worked with people whose 2 year olds kept getting into to trouble in daycare centers for biting, hitting, etc. Well, they are with a large group of kids, away from home for 8-10 hours per day, and are at an age where impulse control isn't really formed. What do you expect? On to the issue of "controlling" your kid... my goal as a parent is too teach my children to control themselves. That involves different solutions at different ages, and with different kids. The bottom line is that you can't physically control your kids for very long, you better hope you have a better solution than hitting. My brother is a great example of that! Control all you want, but don't be surprised to find out that your 12 year-old has been sneaking out his window at night to get drunk. And don't take this to mean that we are pushover parents. I think spanking advocates see it sometimes as spanking or "do-nothing liberal pansy-ass parents". That is not the case at all. My kids know the rules in our family, are respectful of others, are empathetic and caring, and do not get into trouble in school.
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sarahjane
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"Think it'll work? It'd take a miracle. Bye-bye!"
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Post by sarahjane on Oct 8, 2008 17:06:13 GMT -5
learnedaboutgrace, Spanking is a very controversial topic, I know, so I hesitate to even get into the discussion. I have a little two year old boy. I've spanked him once. For one, it didn't work, he gave me a very hurt look, and then went and did it again. I didn't like my feelings, I felt so angry, I spanked, and then I felt awful. So I decided not to do it ever again. I decided this before I had done any research on spanking. After researching it some, I feel good about the decision I've made. Studies have shown that even infrequent spanking can have long-term negative effects on children and on into adulthood. So before you make this decision (and it's a big one!) it might be helpful to read up on both sides of the issue. And I have to add, it's the "religious right" advocating spanking, and the rest of the world opposing it (it seems to be anyway...) Take a look at the spanking section of www.religioustolerance.org. It will give you a good overview from both sides of the issue. "whew" I hate getting myself into these debates, but this one was too important to ignore Sarah jane (Amen Juliette!!! Well said )
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aurora
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Post by aurora on Oct 8, 2008 17:13:15 GMT -5
I do believe that spanking, hitting, slapping, and smacking kids is teaching them to do the same to their peers to get people to do what they want, behave how they want.
Just like I think capital punishment is ridiculous. You can't teach people that it's wrong to murder people by murdering people. Again, jmho.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Oct 9, 2008 14:49:07 GMT -5
So the kids who do not get spanked grow up to be happy, productive contributors to society. What about the kids who do not get spanked who are drunks, drug addicts, and thieves before they are adults? Heaven forbid I put in my two cents worth again (got chewed out but good awhile back on this topic), but I believe some kids need it and some do not. Some kids respond better with hugs, a good talking to, or what have you. But some kids need a good licking. It all depends on the kid's wiring.
Regarding capital punishment and imprisonment, I believe adults, like kids, should be given another chance to prove themselves. I do not believe anyone should be given life without parole. Kids go to juvenile jail, get out and go back in as adults, and stay there or go in and out for years. But no one really cares whether or not they stay in jail. People change over time. Maybe not all people, but most people change. A gal at the age of twenty-five steals a car, sells drugs, and kills her boyfriend's girlfriend. That does not mean she is going to be a druggie, thieving killer the rest of her life. People change.
If those in charge are going to use capital punishment, they need to reduce the cost to two bucks for a box of .22 shells, thirty minutes time paid to the two people carrying out the legal killing, and two hours paid to the operator of the backhoe. And they need to make sure they have absolute proof that killing is necessary and justifiable according to the act of crime. And then treat all such criminal acts the same.
This justice system is so whacked out it isn't funny. If the criminal can afford the best defense, he probably will not spend two days in jail. That is BS.
Then again, spank them all, put them all in prison, throw away the key, and let the public support them. Why else should we pay taxes? Let us happily support the abusers of welfare and the justice system. Last I heard, we pay prisoners (in effect) forty thousand a year. What a grand scheme. They get free health care, a roof over their heads, lifetime gym membership, a warm body to snuggle up to at night, and if they don't like their neighbors, they shank them.
So if you have the type of child that needs some constructive reinforcement now and again, don't bother spanking him. Leave the kids alone, let them bawl their heads off and throw tantrums in public places, and maybe one day I can pay for his welfare for the rest of his life. Besides, that behavior is cute.
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Post by Barry G on Oct 9, 2008 20:02:15 GMT -5
British MPs to push for ban on smacking children This just takes us one step closer to the government having all the control and individuals having none. And we are willingly giving up our freedoms one at a time until we have voted ourselves into slavery to the government.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2008 22:21:28 GMT -5
British MPs to push for ban on smacking children This just takes us one step closer to the government having all the control and individuals having none. And we are willingly giving up our freedoms one at a time until we have voted ourselves into slavery to the government. Perhaps one freedom we should all willingly give up is the freedom to inflict pain and suffering on another human being. No need for government to have to do it then.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 9, 2008 23:36:18 GMT -5
I had decided not to respond anymore because people are so polarized but I wanted to point out again
This is not done in anger The child knows what behavior is not acceptable The child willfully repeats the behavior 2 times after the first instance(when he may have not known it was not acceptable) so 2 warnings. THE PARENT STAYS CALM AND IN CONTROL. IT is NOT yanking them up and hauling them out of meeting for a butt whipping. There are NO WELTS OR BRUISES. The behavior is one that could lead to serious issues. Not accidentally breaking a glass or something like that.
SOmeone asked if I condoned caning like they do in other countries.
Does it leave welts and bruises? NO I don't condone it then.
Not totally sure where I stand on the whole spanking thing anyway but it seems some of the more anti-spanking people think it is a beating every time a child needs correction or nothing at all, not something to use only in extremly serious cases.
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Post by IllinoisGal on Oct 10, 2008 6:25:08 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2008 6:53:45 GMT -5
learnedaboutgrace, here's what I hear you saying:
If my neighbour's dog does his business on my lawn and I tell my neigbour about it 2 times, then on the third time is ok to lay a beating on him as long as I don't do it in anger, and don't leave any bruises. That goes for the dog too of course.....no bruises, no welts. Just keep calm while whaling on them, then they will know just what is acceptable behaviour.
The above sounds ridiculous and criminal. Of course it does because it is.
I wonder if corporal punishment advocates see the disconnect between what is acceptable for dealing with adult malfeasance and a defenseless child's little mistakes, I doubt it. It is ok to beat a child who is still learning good behaviour, but it is criminal to beat an adult who knows better.
My goodness, we can't even legally beat the real criminals who, ostensibly, have done something to deserve it, but for some people it's ok to beat a little child.
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Post by Barry G on Oct 10, 2008 7:11:35 GMT -5
Perhaps one freedom we should all willingly give up is the freedom to inflict pain and suffering on another human being. It looks like "WE" are willing to give up all our freedoms, one at a time. We are as likely to agree on this as we are to agree to eliminate ALL taxes.
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