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Post by MsMarie on Sept 10, 2008 7:21:50 GMT -5
Jesus asked us to take the bread and wine in his memory. Is this a sacrament as many churches believe ie to be administered only by a pastor or similar, or is it something we can do for ourselves? I ask because I notice that some churches do always have Sunday morning bread and wine, others maybe only once a month, and others not at all because there is no pastor available (I think).
How do others feel? Is this a commandment?
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 10, 2008 8:53:12 GMT -5
Every time you have a meal you can do this. The early church did not practice "communion" as we do now. They got together primarily for a meal and within that context they remembered Jesus as they ate together. They remembered His passover- last supper- but also remembered that He would come again and dine with them all!
It was not sterile and purposely guilt inducing, nor grace giving as some of the sacramental churches view it. Instead it was a time to gather with each other around Jesus.
It was a feast, too! We have Sunday brunches- big ones and our family gathers around Jesus. More often that not, the conversations run deep and He becomes the center of our time. We do this at other meals , too - as the Spirit leads us.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 11, 2008 16:00:46 GMT -5
1) Every time you have a meal you can do this. ~~~ Sorry, I disagree with you on this.2) The early church did not practice "communion" as we do now. They got together primarily for a meal and within that context they remembered Jesus as they ate together. They remembered His passover- last supper- but also remembered that He would come again and dine with them all! ~~~ They had Christ's Passover and with meals... But they had a problem as Paul described in I Cor. 11:20- 22 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is "NOT" to eat the Lord's Supper! For in eating everyone taketh before before his own supper and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
What! have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and sham them that have not? shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
~~~ I agree with you about The purpose of the Lord's Supper or Christ's Passover is in Rememberance of Jesus' life, death, sacrifice and resurrection (I Cor. 11:22-26).
I believe eventually the early disciples discarded having meals part with the communion=Eucharist according to 2nd century early church fathers historical documents. We don't read them having meals during, before or after their Eucharists.You can disagree, but you are wrong. Paul said not to pay attention to people that try to put one in bondage over such things. You are unfamiliar with the church's first 100 years or so. You should read some church history besides broadbent's book You'd find that the love feast was exactly what I described- and until the church moved from organic to institution, this love feast was what the church gathered around- with Jesus at the center of it all.
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Post by rational on Sept 11, 2008 20:16:47 GMT -5
You are unfamiliar with the church's first 100 years or so. You should read some church history besides broadbent's book Are you familiar with the first 100 years? I would appreciate any references you could post. I have found there to be a dearth of information.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Sept 11, 2008 22:18:23 GMT -5
Msmarie, I dont think its because the Pastor needs to officiate or lead it. The bible says to do this as often, in rememberence. Some do it every sunday some once a month. It is the preference of the local church. We had great discussions about this yrs ago, the conclusion was it was personal. Daily/weekly/monthy/six monthly. Communion with God and fellowship with other believers. Lets face it most churchs dont use wine either they use grape juice, goodness knows why! So it isnt the wine, its the symbolising. My friends and I would go for coffee and have the most wonderful times of fellowship in public in a coffee bar.The Holy SPirit leading the conv all the way and give us revelation about all kinds of things pertaining to the conversation.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 11, 2008 22:24:12 GMT -5
You are unfamiliar with the church's first 100 years or so. You should read some church history besides broadbent's book Are you familiar with the first 100 years? I would appreciate any references you could post. I have found there to be a dearth of information. The didache would be a good place to start..., or the book of Acts- the NT Epistles. These would cover the 1st century and into the 2nd a bit. Also F.F. Bruce, "The History and Doctrine of the Apostolic Age, NT Wright's many volumes, Jaroslav Pelikan- any of these would shed good light on this topic. Works by Frank Viola- the newer book Pagan Christianity is a great sourcebook as it is heavily researched and sourced.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 11, 2008 22:25:30 GMT -5
I have the early Christian beliefs book. It doesn't mention of any LOVE feast with their Eucharists by the end of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd century.
Please, share with us where you read the information of the love feast continue in the first century, 2nd and 3rd century. Thanks. What is the name of your book?
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 11, 2008 22:31:11 GMT -5
So if the love feasts stopped, after the Apostolic age, does that make it right to not have them?
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 11, 2008 22:46:23 GMT -5
You are not understanding me I don't think. You are separating the eucharist from the love feast. The eucharist did not exist as a separate entity but was the love feast. That is why they got together for a meal- just to remember Him in community. Study the time period more- it is very eye opening, unless of course you don't want to learn. If that's the case, that's fine but please don't argue something you don't have sufficient knowledge of. The Acts and the Epistles covered the 1st c. Read them and then we can talk.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 12, 2008 5:59:16 GMT -5
You are not understanding me I don't think. You are separating the eucharist from the love feast. The eucharist did not exist as a separate entity but was the love feast. That is why they got together for a meal- just to remember Him in community. Study the time period more- it is very eye opening, unless of course you don't want to learn. If that's the case, that's fine but please don't argue something you don't have sufficient knowledge of. The Acts and the Epistles covered the 1st c. Read them and then we can talk. That is what I tried to point out to you.... Paul told the problem that the Corinthians Christian were having they had with the lovefeast and the Bread and wine=Eucharists..... I Cor. 11:20-26.
Some got so drunk! that they lost the purpose or the meaning of Christ's Passover=Eucharists...
I Cor. 14: 26 How it is brethren? when ye come together, every one of you has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a language, has a revelation. Let all things be done unto edifying.They had the problem, not the meal. Also we do not see him pointing this out to any other group of believers. PLus they were treating some believers better than others, elevating some above others so that the lesser saints, in their eyes, were left out of the meal. Their whole attitude was wrong. But still, we do not see him tell them to stop eating together, or to institute a separate eucharistic service. Jesus drank wine, too- He was accused of being a drunkard, so we see the problem is not with the wine, it is with the person who chooses to abuse it. None of what you stated, which was only part of the story, the part that supported what you thought, changes anything that I stated was fact- which you can study to find true, or you can stay ignorant of this knowledge which is fine. You'll just be missing out on something special.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 12, 2008 11:49:30 GMT -5
Study the scriptures, do some good research and find out! I'd rather you learn to fish...
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 12, 2008 19:01:22 GMT -5
I don't know all of their reasons. I am not here to pass judgment on them, or not. All I do know is what the scripture and Spirit say to me, and many others.
You didn't answer my question either, a much simpler one; but that's your prerogative.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 12, 2008 22:34:40 GMT -5
My church does, yes. But you do not understand what I mean, that is clear to me. Do some research and we can talk about this at length. I am not trying to put you down,
If you follow your pattern, you will next ask me what church I attend.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 12, 2008 22:49:29 GMT -5
I am not going down this road with you. You can study more, or not.
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Post by ronhall on Sept 13, 2008 0:40:01 GMT -5
If you are interested in understanding this, it is helpful to read in Genesis about the relationship between Abraham and Lot.
Remember, Lot took the first choice, which actually rightfully belonged to Abraham and ended up in ease in Sodom. But a king rose up and took Sodom in war and Lot was captive until Abraham accompanied by his best warriors rescued Lot. After the battle that ensued the priest of Salem brought bread and wine to those still standing.
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God.
Thus we have the order of Melchizedek that Jesus followed. It means, to me, reconciliation and renewed strength after the battle. Jesus asked that this be done in remembrance of Him. It is a token of His shed blood that reconciles us to God the Father and a token of renewed strength by the bread to go onward following the example of Jesus in our living. This is the high point of our worship.
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Post by MsMarie on Sept 13, 2008 2:09:33 GMT -5
Does it then follow that if we do not partake regularly of the bread and wine for whatever reason, then we are breaking a commandment from Jesus? I am wondering how it became to be just a preference of various churches whether to have bread and wine and how often. I am in a little church abroad at the moment where there is no pastor except in the larger city and therefore we are not given the option. My husband is very concerned about this, but I am a bit on the fence as to how serious a matter this is.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 13, 2008 8:13:06 GMT -5
I am not going down this road with you. You can study more, or not. What are you afraid of? If you believe your church got it right with the full meals part don't you want others to know about it? so this full meals practice can spread to different churches ASAP.
Who provide all the foods for the full meals? Do you have wine during your full meals for everyone? Do you have full meals every Sunday?
When and who started your church group?Oh Nate, it's not about fear any more than it is about being "right." Sorry, but I can't play this game with you. It is remembering that matters- you keep taking something living and organic and you turn it into religion. Didn't say that whenever we eat together we are to remember Him? He matters. And we can, and should remember Him whenever we gather together whether in a formal setting or at lunch; whether with our family, at a larger meal, or when we are eating on the road.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 13, 2008 16:40:46 GMT -5
Oh Nate, it's not about fear any more than it is about being "right." Sorry, but I can't play this game with you.
It is remembering that matters- you keep taking something living and organic and you turn it into religion.
Didn't say that whenever we eat together we are to remember Him?
He matters. And we can, and should remember Him whenever we gather together whether in a formal setting or at lunch; whether with our family, at a larger meal, or when we are eating on the road.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 13, 2008 18:39:07 GMT -5
We do.
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Post by outsidein on Sept 13, 2008 21:14:07 GMT -5
Nathan, if you are interested in what is true go and do the work. Suffice it to say that whenever 2 or more gather in His name, He is there.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 13, 2008 21:51:49 GMT -5
Go and do the research. read some sources like the ones I listed. Study history, pray, think, write, challenge your own preconceptions. Then do what the Spirit says.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2008 14:20:49 GMT -5
The 2x2 construction of 'the bread and wine' has been taken completely out of the context that we read how Jesus shared the bread and wine in connection with the last supper. Creating religious ritual complete with a definition of the worthy and unworthy (as 2x2ism practices) is quite obviously out of character for the beautiful teachings of Christ.
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Post by mexicali on Sept 30, 2008 20:21:03 GMT -5
This has no significance to me regarding the sanctity and privilege of partaking in the bread and wine in thanksgiving and memory of Jesus' sacrifice, but has anyone ever noticed that in one of the Gospels it records that Jesus took the wine first? And can anyone explain why here in the USA grape juice is subsituted?
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Post by ScholarGal on Sept 30, 2008 21:16:35 GMT -5
And can anyone explain why here in the USA grape juice is subsituted? I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing it is because drinking alcohol is taboo in most of the United States. Maybe they switched from wine to grape juice during the Prohibition, and never switched back?
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Post by ronhall on Oct 1, 2008 7:42:47 GMT -5
In my study on this subject, the first reference of bread & wine was after the battle of Abraham and his army to free Lot from his captors Melchizedek, the priest of Salem came bringing bread and wine to bless Abraham and cause reconciliation with the king of Sodom.
In Psalms and in Hebrews Jesus is proclaimed to come after the order of Melchizedek, the order being the bringing of bread for strength and sustenance and wine for the spirit.
In our worship in the Sunday morning meeting we separate ourselves from the influence of the world for a time to focus on our personal battle to reclaim, renew and refresh our commitment to serve and walk with Jesus. The token of the bread and wine is to remind us of the spiritual strength that is ours in Jesus.
As was mentioned by an earlier poster, this was also a commandment of Jesus at the last supper.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Oct 1, 2008 8:13:50 GMT -5
In my study on this subject, the first reference of bread & wine was after the battle of Abraham and his army to free Lot from his captors Melchizedek, the priest of Salem came bringing bread and wine to bless Abraham and cause reconciliation with the king of Sodom. In Psalms and in Hebrews Jesus is proclaimed to come after the order of Melchizedek, the order being the bringing of bread for strength and sustenance and wine for the spirit. In our worship in the Sunday morning meeting we separate ourselves from the influence of the world for a time to focus on our personal battle to reclaim, renew and refresh our commitment to serve and walk with Jesus. The token of the bread and wine is to remind us of the spiritual strength that is ours in Jesus. As was mentioned by an earlier poster, this was also a commandment of Jesus at the last supper. Is that what Jesus told His disciples to do? I do not read this in any of the accounts of that last passover/supper. I read that we are to remember Him.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Oct 7, 2008 23:09:42 GMT -5
Is that what Jesus told His disciples to do? I do not read this in any of the accounts of that last passover/supper. I read that we are to remember Him. Read: Matthew 26: 17-29; Mark 14:10-25 Luke 22:1-19;
I Cor.11:23-26; 14:23-26I did. And...
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Oct 8, 2008 21:24:34 GMT -5
What chapters? You gave me short passages out of their context.
I learned that you like some parts of scripture over others, and that rather than deal with the simplest sense of the scripture, you place your grid of beliefs over the scripture and only use the pasrt that fit your grid.
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