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Post by pinkflipflop on Sept 9, 2008 7:23:19 GMT -5
I went to meetings for 10 years and live in N Ireland. Many of my friends and family still belong but equally many people I know have left the meetings in recent years.
My reasons for leaving were: -confusion over the origins of the church -while I followed the rules about things like dress code/appearance/tv's etc - I didn't really believe it deep down -I don't believe only those in the meetings are true christians
It seems that there are many more people leaving than joining the meetings at the moment.
I would be interested to know what others reasons for leaving are.
Answers please as this board seems very quiet|!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2008 16:20:17 GMT -5
Pinkflipflop
I left because it suddenly dawned on me that the 2x2 sect was not really that different to any other man-made sect such as the Mormon Church, the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the Plymouth Brethren. Of course we were all taught that these churches, being man-made, were of the devil and that their clergy were going to hell so it was a great revelation to realise that the 2x2 church was also man-made. (I guess one can draw one’s own conclusions regarding where 2x2 clergy were going.) The thing that finally put me over the edge was gaining access to the information on the early history of the sect including the riots in Newtownards, the fanatical public preaching of the message that the Methodists were going to hell and the breakaway of the 2x2 sect from the Faith Mission. Oh, and the fact that the founder William Irvine had displayed all the behavioral patterns of a man gone simply mad. Could a bad tree really bring forth such good fruit? It was like waking up suddenly on the way home after a heavy night out only to find you were on the wrong train.
Of course all this was particularly relevant at the time as the senior worker in our area seemed to be revelling in preaching to the great unwashed in his gospel mission that his was the only church on earth not started by a man and with all the self righteousness of a Pharisee too. Once I realised that the workers were prepared to peddle such nonsense in a public forum I was off into the sunset quicker than you can say Noel Tanner. Scrach the surface and the gilt wears off; dig a little deeper and the whole house comes tumbling down. To be able to leave safe in the knowledge that I wouldn’t in fact go to hell after all was obviously a great relief. Religious bondage is a terrible thing and I still feel for those trapped in the pettiness of the 2x2 system for no other reason than the much misplaced fear that they’ll end up one day in the lap of Satan (if Tommie Gamble hasn't made them feel they are almost there already). I guess I’d always had a sneaking suspicion that the 2x2 sect was not all it was cracked up to be but I reckon I needed something convincing to sell to my mother lest she start weeping and wailing and gnashing her teeth. I guess the picture of the founder, William Irvine, waiting in Jerusalem for the second coming and believing he to be one of the two witnesses mentioned in the Book of Revelation was convincing enough. There are saner men locked up in my local asylum.
I used to have serious issues with the whole 2x2 system following my departure but less so now. I now just think that the whole belief system is simply nuts but not that much more so than most other religious belief systems. I guess the workers are as much victims of indoctrination as I was and I am now content to attribute all our sojourns along that rather peculiar way to nothing more sinister than an unfortunate combination of an accident of birth and a very momentary lapse of reason.
Matt10
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Post by irvinegrey on Sept 13, 2008 15:09:36 GMT -5
Matt I grew up on the edge of the 2x2 system and was always astonished at their vitriolic attacks on all other Christians who were not part of the system. I also met Edward Cooney in 1959 and he had mellowed with age and was no longer the Cooney we read of in those early days of 1905 onwards.
I am now involved in researching the 2x2 system as my subject for a Master of Philosophy at Queen's University and want to address this under three headings - historical, sociological and theological. Initially I was simply going to examine and critque the theology of the 2x2 system but I have quickly realised that all three areas need examination.
Given the lack of any written material from the group either in terms of a statement of faith or a creedal statement this task is difficult but not impossible. I need to assemble the views of existing 2x2 adherents and those who once were part of the system.
Your views are of interest to me.
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Post by irvinegrey on Sept 13, 2008 15:10:51 GMT -5
Matt I grew up on the edge of the 2x2 system and was always astonished at their vitriolic attacks on all other Christians who were not part of the system. I also met Edward Cooney in 1959 and he had mellowed with age and was no longer the Cooney we read of in those early days of 1905 onwards.
I am now involved in researching the 2x2 system as my subject for a Master of Philosophy at Queen's University and want to address this under three headings - historical, sociological and theological. Initially I was simply going to examine and critque the theology of the 2x2 system but I have quickly realised that all three areas need examination.
Given the lack of any written material from the group either in terms of a statement of faith or a creedal statement this task is difficult but not impossible. I need to assemble the views of existing 2x2 adherents and those who once were part of the system.
Your views are of interest to me.
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Post by september on Sept 14, 2008 3:18:57 GMT -5
Irvine, you may have met EC in 1959 and claim he had mellowed but you are misguided. He may not have been in the setting (for preaching) for holding forth as he normally did. My family were closely involved with EC and the whole Cooney movement so I'm guessing their accounts are accurate. They have no reason to fabricate stories. I also know the woman that nursed him on his death bed and his views and doctrine had not changed one iota.
As for vitriolic attacks by people in the fellowship towards other Chrisitians, you must have associated with a very odd crowd indeed. Even in Fermanagh (where I understand you are from), I never heard anything more than sighs of sorrow (misplaced though it may be) for the lost or deluded.
And back to the topic of the thread, the origins of the origins of the fellowship have always been known to me. There was no secret made of it when I was growing up, nor to some of my friends as their families had also told them of the origins. I imagine some of the problem today is that most people have no interest in the history of the fellowship, being quite content with life inside the meetings and the constant reassurraces that the meetings are the only true way.
I imagine when anyone professes these days, it is largely peer/parent pressure as their friends are professing and it is expected of them. I don't really think anyone prays to God to guide them to profess as it is explained from the cradle it is already God's will that they should; yet prayer should be an intrinsic part of any decision making, especially one so life-changing as professing.
Pink Flip Flop, your comment about more people leaving than joining may well be accurate and I've thought hard about those that joined "voluntarily" in recent years and can think of just one. Others tend to come on account of a girlfriend/boyfriend or because someone in their family has joined for that reason, or because their mother or father or both professed 60 years ago and now in their twilight years, they are returning to the fold.
We invited good Christian people (about 8 over the course) to missions in our area a few years ago, sincerely hoping they would see the wrong in their church and be brought to God but heard afterwards that they thought our celebrity worker uninspiring in his address, that they left the meetings feeling no more uplifted or educated than when they went in. The saddest thing was, that we couldn't argue with them.
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Post by pinkflipflop on Sept 14, 2008 6:30:47 GMT -5
Matt
Just wondered if you belong to any church at the moment?
Irvine - I would be very interested to read your findings! I can imagine it will be a difficult research project though! Will your paper be available for the public to read?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2008 13:05:17 GMT -5
Matt Just wondered if you belong to any church at the moment? Irvine - I would be very interested to read your findings! I can imagine it will be a difficult research project though! Will your paper be available for the public to read? Pinkff - no church belonging for me I'm afraid. I reckon that my sojourn through 2x2ism provided me with sufficient exposure to flawed religious thinking for one lifetime. I certainly wouldn't wish to risk any more. Plus I enjoy being free of any religious labels. These days I'm just me. Matt10
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Post by hope on Sept 18, 2008 4:41:56 GMT -5
my reason for leaving was I recognised so much man worship hypocrisy in MY life... i knew that being "professing" wasnt cutting it with God... God led me, He fed me... He held me, He released me and then He showed me that He already had died to randsom me, He adopted me and His love is so powerful it has completely and radically changed me- Praise Him..! He is truly the love of my life, my guiding star, my comfort, brother.husband.father.... I took me a long time (over a year) to become fully psychologically/mentally/heart healed after growing up under such elitism (i am from northern ireland too -chances are we already know eachother) but His love and faithfulness never fail.... Please pm if you wanna chat sister
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Post by hope on Sept 18, 2008 4:50:38 GMT -5
I disagree with Matt on the church thing tho.. you certainly have to pray for a spirit of discernment as there are many sects cults and dead or sleeping churches..., but as Iron sharpens Iron, Christians are called to fellowship... ultimately our relationship with Jesus/God is what really matters...for my first year I kept my distance and my suspicious attitude to church and fellowshipped only with the Lord... if you pray in sincerity before the Lord He will lead you to a church that is filled and guided by his holy spirit.
God called me very specifically to an "on fire" with the spirit interdenominational church... as iron sharpens iron the fellowship has edified, sharpened, loved on me and I finally have deep fellowship, people that I truly feel like are family to me... Gods heart for us is to be part of His family... thats why even Jesus soughy fellowship... look at the bible so many references to "the body" as being the believers...
an illustration... lots of coal and you have a fire.. but take one coal out and it only stays hot for a little while then it cools and eventually goes cold.
We need fellowship for love, support and accountability - as it says in eccl.... if two walk together if one stumbles the other can pick him up...
In that year alone I grew but in fellowship I grew 100 fold more...
Praise God!
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Post by Gene on Sept 18, 2008 14:53:19 GMT -5
Matt Just wondered if you belong to any church at the moment? Irvine - I would be very interested to read your findings! I can imagine it will be a difficult research project though! Will your paper be available for the public to read? Pinkff - no church belonging for me I'm afraid. I reckon that my sojourn through 2x2ism provided me with sufficient exposure to flawed religious thinking for one lifetime. I certainly wouldn't wish to risk any more. Plus I enjoy being fee of any religious labels. These days I'm just me. Matt10 Perhaps it's true, then, that the truth has set you free.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2008 2:08:16 GMT -5
It cetainly has, Gene.
Freedom from fear and hell and the 2x2 monster. Of course only the brave can be truely free.
Matt10
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Post by irvinegrey on Sept 20, 2008 13:35:49 GMT -5
Hope wrote 'God led me, He fed me... He held me, He released me and then He showed me that He already had died to randsom me, He adopted me and His love is so powerful it has completely and radically changed me- Praise Him..! He is truly the love of my life, my guiding star, my comfort, brother.husband.father....,'
Inspiring words from Hope and she is absolutely right. When Christ becomes your all and all and you are fully surrendered to Him then we have the real purpose in life.
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Post by irvinegrey on Sept 20, 2008 13:54:11 GMT -5
September I really must tell you that I am not misguided about Edward Cooney. At a meeting in the home of Mrs Sarah West in Ballinamallard Edward Cooney broke bread with the assembled group and the only two 'outsiders' were my school teacher and myself. Both believers. Are you telling me that the Cooney of 1904 would have broken bread with 'outsiders'? I think not! Cooney was always conscious of the fact that he had become a believer long before he met William Irvine for whom he had great admiration. As to 'a very odd crowd indeed' I think you may have misunderstood my statement. Certainly in the 50s and 60s vitriolic attacks on other Christians were commonplace and of course you must remember that the 2x2 did not consider any other believers as Christians. For them the only folk who were Christians were those who 'professed' through the workers. I must add that the largest majority of 2x2s I have come into cvontact with have been gracious and that includes many workers with whom I have 'lively' discussions. I am glad you are familiar with my home county of Fermanagh (i still call it home) although these days I live outside Lurgan.
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Post by september on Dec 2, 2008 11:16:27 GMT -5
September I really must tell you that I am not misguided about Edward Cooney. At a meeting in the home of Mrs Sarah West in Ballinamallard Edward Cooney broke bread with the assembled group and the only two 'outsiders' were my school teacher and myself. Both believers. Are you telling me that the Cooney of 1904 would have broken bread with 'outsiders'? I think not! Cooney was always conscious of the fact that he had become a believer long before he met William Irvine for whom he had great admiration. As to 'a very odd crowd indeed' I think you may have misunderstood my statement. Certainly in the 50s and 60s vitriolic attacks on other Christians were commonplace and of course you must remember that the 2x2 did not consider any other believers as Christians. For them the only folk who were Christians were those who 'professed' through the workers. I must add that the largest majority of 2x2s I have come into cvontact with have been gracious and that includes many workers with whom I have 'lively' discussions. I am glad you are familiar with my home county of Fermanagh (i still call it home) although these days I live outside Lurgan. To drag this old thread up again... Irvine, I am fairly reliably informed that in the (very) early days of the fellowship, there was on occasion, a guest speaker at the convention who was a member of the ordained ministry. I think this indicates Edward Cooney's willingness to break bread with other Christians, whatever his change of stance may have been in the future.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 2, 2008 14:26:58 GMT -5
And I note that even today, workers occasionally preach in the churches of other denominations. Last occasion I heard of was in the last 2 months.
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Post by fred on Dec 3, 2008 7:12:46 GMT -5
Was that to another congregation Geoff ? But I don't believe you or I will live to see it the other way round, which is what September is alluding to.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 3, 2008 8:23:07 GMT -5
Was that to another congregation Geoff ? But I don't believe you or I will live to see it the other way round, which is what September is alluding to. I don't understand your second sentence, but your question is clear. Yes it was preaching to another congregation in a church. Wa smentioned in a letter from a worker recently. If your second sentence was a question, can you re-phrase it? I don't know what you're asking (or perhaps saying).
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Post by Geoff on Dec 3, 2008 8:25:45 GMT -5
Irvine Grey said I must add that the largest majority of 2x2s I have come into contact with have been gracious and that includes many workers with whom I have 'lively' discussions.
Its interesting that you are researching this fellowship and that you wish to speak to many of its members. Are you restricting your research to Ireland/Eire? If not, how will you select those to whom you speak without suffering from self selection bias?
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Post by september on Dec 3, 2008 9:46:59 GMT -5
Was that to another congregation Geoff ? But I don't believe you or I will live to see it the other way round, which is what September is alluding to. I think but may be wrong in my recollection that Stormin' Norman Nash had part in a mass in catholic church in the South of Ireland within the past few years. I know he had a close relationship with a priest in that area so it is likely.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 3, 2008 10:36:49 GMT -5
and further to that I know of a professing person who co-hosted a weekly Christian Radio program. There's examples of every manner of diversity eh?
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Post by september on Dec 3, 2008 11:05:43 GMT -5
and further to that I know of a professing person who co-hosted a weekly Christian Radio program. There's examples of every manner of diversity eh? Wasn't he a bad boy? It's not so long ago that workers were pulling aerials out of cars at convention!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2008 13:48:50 GMT -5
Don't forget the professing person who has for a number of years had his own regular column (half a page) in a popular "sunday" newspaper !
It's not so long ago that those who wished to read Sunday papers were advised to arrange to collect them, or have them delivered on the Monday.
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Post by fred on Dec 3, 2008 17:27:52 GMT -5
Sorry for the confusion Geoff.
September mentioned an ordained cleric having a part at convention, which is the other way round to all the other talk of diversity on this thread.
I'm sure you could pick a favourite preacher/teacher that you would like to hear at convention. I really enjoy the concise bible based teaching that Alistair Begg presents , and would love to see him at convention.
This not going to happen in my lifetime, so I continue to listen to him online at Truth for life.
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Post by ex-teenager on Dec 6, 2008 15:33:00 GMT -5
Don't forget the professing person who has for a number of years had his own regular column (half a page) in a popular "sunday" newspaper ! It's not so long ago that those who wished to read Sunday papers were advised to arrange to collect them, or have them delivered on the Monday. Im sure the article was made at least the day before in order to be in print on the sunday
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Post by Geoff on Dec 7, 2008 12:57:11 GMT -5
If its published on Sunday, then its printed Saturday night perhaps. Writing could for such a non-time related subject could be weeks in advance.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2008 13:34:43 GMT -5
Don't forget the professing person who has for a number of years had his own regular column (half a page) in a popular "sunday" newspaper ! It's not so long ago that those who wished to read Sunday papers were advised to arrange to collect them, or have them delivered on the Monday. Im sure the article was made at least the day before in order to be in print on the sunday It had nothing to do with when articles were written or when things were actually printed. It was to do with the fact it was a "Sunday" newspaper, sold and read on Sundays. It's not that long ago that even traditional churches were in the main against Sunday shopping etc. Also how could a professing person (in the UK) receive a Sunday newspaper and read it before Sunday AM meeting when he/she should be preparing for the meeting. After dinner it was time to prepare for PM meeting. Might as well wait until Monday ?
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Post by Geoff on Dec 7, 2008 15:04:34 GMT -5
My, how times have changed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2008 11:38:48 GMT -5
The Times may have changed but the Sunday Post has not.
On a more serious note, if the practices and beliefs of a group change over time, it becomes very important to document the history of the group in order to counter denial, plausible deniability, deceit, misunderstandings, untruths, yes even lies, if that group does not itself document what it believes, nor takes responsibility for the adverse effects their "time changing beliefs" may have on their following.
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