|
Post by pinkflipflop on Sept 6, 2008 15:19:19 GMT -5
Hi
Just wondered about this? In the meetings so much is talked about false religions, those who have been snared by worldly churches and it got me thinking have many professing people really taken time to learn and understand about other churches? Often I wonder if alot of what they say is just rhetoric. Something that they hear and repeat because it's the done thing.
If you are professing, do you really and truly believe all other christian churches are evil?
|
|
|
Post by deirdre on Sept 7, 2008 4:18:14 GMT -5
Hi also, is this a european issue? Welcome on the board. I'm 15 yrs out now, but in my last 5 yrs or so I was not convinced about the exclusivity of "the way" anymore. There still are a lot of churches in NL, and many of them very orthodox. Many older friends have there background in those churches and feel "released", so they are not always objective. What did we hear about the churches: - they preach the word, but they don't act likewise - they earn money with preaching and that's not what a "shepherd" is like - its a worldly religion I understand that a few f&w have let these thoughts go.
|
|
|
Post by melissa on Sept 7, 2008 13:58:06 GMT -5
The question asks what do 2x2s know about churches.
Basic education teaches general religious knowledge, so they, as others would be informed of the basics.
2x2s believe that God is their teacher so what He leads the workers to believe is from God. Workers teach that all other churches are "false." Good 2x2s don't go there so they remain in ignorance of what other christian churches do and think.
Borderline 2x2s do observe and enquire and some attend other churches out of curiosity and interest. Some leave 2x2 and don't return. Others leave for a period of time and then return. Many of the returning flock feel that the other churches left them empty and void.
On these boards b&r 2x2s who have left claim great peace found in other forms of worship and churches.
You have to taste to see. IMO
|
|
otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by otto2 on Sept 9, 2008 15:59:44 GMT -5
pinkflipflop;... cool name! did you wear 'em to meetings?
I think you'll find it hard to get professing people to admit to others outside their group being saved. I know some who will admit that privately; but they are be very careful about who they say it to.
Without doubt, my parents and brother are exclusive in their beliefs, they might just go as far as saying that God is drawing some people who are in other churches; but they believe those people haven't completed their journey yet. So long as they don't harden their hearts, God will draw them all the way to the 2x2's. If that doesn't happen, well; God just didn't want them.
The one's who will admit that others outside their group are saved seem to be trying to change the group from the inside. I think in their hearts they don't think any other church is as close to what God requires as the 2x2's, but they recognise it has faults and would try to address that.
For myself, I believe that all sincere believers who try to make their beliefs manifest in their lives, are part of the body of Christ regardless of the name by which they identify themselves.
|
|
|
Post by pinkflipflop on Sept 10, 2008 9:12:16 GMT -5
Thanks Otto! I did indeed wear my pinkflipflops on Sunday AM, although the open toes and diamantes got many a disapproving look ;D
Appreciate your thoughts on this matter so far.
Since leaving the mtgs I have experienced many other churches and while I have yet to go to a church that makes me go WOW, I have to say that so many of them are so different from what I expected.
My experiences include: -hearing about Jesus and not just THE WAY -Open and frank discussion of potentially sensitive matters -Love expressed towards other christians who do not necessarily belong to the same group -Educated and informed ministers who will discuss issues and not feel uncomfortable if an issue is raised -Lots and lots of community work and fundraising The list goes on!
I have to say that I am not interested in what some would term as being 'bitter' - there are many many lovely people in the mtgs that I have so much love and respect for. I just feel many are uninformed and have tunnel vision.
|
|
|
Post by aileen on Sept 11, 2008 15:29:12 GMT -5
"If you are professing, do you really and truly believe all other christian churches are evil? "
Being in the business, I know a lot about them. Some are "evil" some not. I don't know anyone who thinks they're all evil. I suspect that there not anyone who thinks that seriously.
|
|
otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by otto2 on Sept 12, 2008 3:23:21 GMT -5
"Being in the business" (being in the business of other churches?) What does that mean aileen?, I'm not wishing to pry, just curious.
|
|
|
Post by aileen on Sept 13, 2008 2:17:48 GMT -5
I work in a field that brings me into daily contact with officers in many churches. It gives me the opportunity to discuss with them their practices and beleifs, and their commercial, missionary, evangelistic and pastoral activities.
|
|
otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by otto2 on Sept 13, 2008 4:34:55 GMT -5
Interesting; thank you aileen, that's quite a unique position to be in. Can I venture to ask, what's your verdict on them all, do you find your discussions with them encouraging?
I'm relatively new to the board and I'm not yet 100% sure where everyone is "at", so may I ask, are you current 2x2 or ex; and if you are 2x2, do your discussions with these churches lead you to a more exclusive or a less exclusive position.
Please don't feel you have to answer if you think I'm probing to deeply. Thanks, otto2
|
|
|
Post by aileen on Sept 13, 2008 5:22:37 GMT -5
I'm a B&R current 2x2 and somewhat exclusive, but not totally.
There's no one way to characterise churches. They're right across the spectrum. There are some smaller, (like us) exclusive, dogmatic, insular, and there are those that are all welcoming, open. Some are generous, some stingy, some emphasise Christs love for mankind, some emphasise dogma. Some are more a social service where Christ is hardly mentioned, some are financial institutions for their clergy - a way of redistributing wealth. Some have genuine Christlike people in them, whose priority is to show that love, some have never heard of that love.
What effect does that have on me? Not much. I like what I have.
You can probe as deeply as you'd like, but in this stilted medium of a bulletin board, you'll need to be specific. What would you like to know?
|
|
otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by otto2 on Sept 13, 2008 6:05:34 GMT -5
Thanks for your openness aileen. The issue that seems to bother me is the one of exclusiveness. I'm B&R 2x2 but never professed. I have family that profess. My position is largely documented in "Invitation to workers and elders" on the Standing true board www.standingtrue.proboards83.com After a long time, in effect; as a worldly unbeliever, I was drawn to seek the Lord. I was brought to attend a church of bible believers in our city. I was struck by the love they had for the word of God and their desire to apply it to themselves. They had love and compassion for their fellow man regardless of who he was or how he looked; but at the same time they were not burdened with what I saw to be the petty rules which characterised the 2x2's; and to the adherence of which fellowship with them depends. I felt this church had unity but not necessarily uniformity, whereas the 2x2's (I attended their meetings too; at this time) had uniformity, sometimes indeed at the expense of unity; as my private discussions with various members revealed. I made my good confession in due course at this church; and I am content there. My frustration is at the 2x2's adamant claims of exclusiveness; but yet sometimes (mostly in fact!) displaying a complete unwillingness on the part of individuals to openly state that. It seems they recognise the self righteousness of the exclusive position; and will twist and turn every which way to avoid being pinned down on the matter. Therefore when I read your post I thought you might be better qualified than most to comment. I wonder what you mean by somewhat exclusive but not totally? My own position is that all sincere believers who seek to make the Word manifest in their lives, are in the one sheepfold regardless of the name by which they identify themselves.
|
|
|
Post by aileen on Sept 13, 2008 13:00:03 GMT -5
"I wonder what you mean by somewhat exclusive but not totally?"
In a width of exposure to denominations I have yet to experience one that has a majority of people demonstrating a Christlike Spirit, or an obvious and committed relationship with Christ.
By contrast I do see that in our fellowship.
Does that mean all in our fellowship are saved? No Does that mean NONE in denominations are saved? No
Not fence sitting, but realistic I think.
|
|
otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by otto2 on Sept 13, 2008 14:11:02 GMT -5
Very realistic & very true. That'll do for me!
|
|
theophilia
New Member
God loved me enough to meet me where I was, but too much to leave me there
Posts: 43
|
Post by theophilia on Sept 13, 2008 18:29:50 GMT -5
Dear Aileen,
When you write that you have found none, in any of the denominations you've visited, who display a Christlike spirit or an obvious and committed relationship with Him, what do you mean? How would you measure the aforementioned?
In Him,
Theo
|
|
|
Post by aileen on Sept 14, 2008 6:41:46 GMT -5
"When you write that you have found none, in any of the denominations you've visited, who display a Christlike spirit or an obvious and committed relationship with Him, what do you mean? How would you measure the aforementioned?"
I didn't write that I'd found NONE, but not a majority. There are always SOME.
I don't measure peoples spirit exactly, but the fruits of the spirit are those listed in scripture, and often visible.
"...obvious and committed relationship with Him, what do you mean...?" surely that needs no explanation? There are those that see church as a club, a social gathering place, and go from for reasons that have nothing to do with worship or learning, rather to be seen.
|
|
theophilia
New Member
God loved me enough to meet me where I was, but too much to leave me there
Posts: 43
|
Post by theophilia on Sept 14, 2008 18:38:53 GMT -5
Dear Aileen,
Thankyou for these insights into your intended meaning. May I ask how long you spent among these aforementioned churches?
In Him,
Theo
|
|
|
Post by aileen on Sept 15, 2008 15:39:07 GMT -5
Theophilia:
Of course you may ask....
but i guess you are asking, rather than asking for permission to ask...
My work brings me into contact with many denominations, almost daily, perhaps 1-2 a day for the last 22 years, though I haven't always worked full time as now. (Time off for Maternity leave, family raising etc). Types of people are mainly missionaries, but also regular priests, ministers, pastors etc.
Why did you ask?
|
|
theophilia
New Member
God loved me enough to meet me where I was, but too much to leave me there
Posts: 43
|
Post by theophilia on Sept 18, 2008 15:47:54 GMT -5
Dear Aileen,
I was simply trying to ascertain how long you had spent among these people before making a judgement about their spirituality. Thanks for your answer; most informative:) What exactly is your line of work?
In Him,
Theo
|
|
|
Post by aileen on Sept 23, 2008 14:43:34 GMT -5
Line of work is sort of social welfare, but from a more clinical aspect.
|
|
theophilia
New Member
God loved me enough to meet me where I was, but too much to leave me there
Posts: 43
|
Post by theophilia on Oct 7, 2008 6:08:33 GMT -5
Dear Aileen,
Many thanks for answering my questions:) I feel most informed.
In Him,
Theo
|
|
|
Post by ronhall on Oct 7, 2008 9:26:50 GMT -5
I am American, but this thread doesn't seem limited to Europe.
When I was in school, about 15 or so, quite a few of my school friends were either Catholic or Lutheran. Both religions had a study program, then a written exam as part of their "confirmation" process. Some of the kids managed to get a copy of the "exam" from the prior year and were using it as a study guide.
Just for fun, I asked if I could take the unofficial exam. I had no problem answering the questions correctly that the others were struggling to find the answers to.
Through life, I have many friends of many religions, Christian and non-Christian. I have attended many of their services and read their books. My conclusion is, for the most part, their knowledge is more on the functioning of their church than the Bible. Their Bible knowledge is limited to what the pastor delivers and what their church literature explains.
Within each group is always a few zealots that delve into other areas of the Bible. Sometimes they are looked upon as gurus by the others, but often they become quite abrasive in their beliefs and are just an annoyance.
Most other churches have good programs that the F&W don't. I'm thinking about formal counseling in the areas of marriage, family life, personal finance, etc. They also have formal outreach programs that can be quite effective. Then there are the retreats and missionary sorties to foreign countries.
What they don't have, in my experience with them, is the continuing, small, mixed-group meeting in an intimate home setting where each one grows to know the others, all their struggles, heart aches, successes, etc., yet learns to love them in spite of all this.
|
|
otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by otto2 on Oct 8, 2008 15:15:32 GMT -5
Hi Ron, welcome to Europe.
We do have the small meeting to which you refer, in our church. We hold them every third week instead of the midweek bible study which would be a whole church meeting. The small meetings take place in an elders home, we call them "homegroups" and their purpose is exactly as you describe, to foster deeper, more personal relationships within the group, to encourage the more shy amongst us to contribute; and to share their fears and failings as well as their triumphs. We have five "homegroups" with about ten or so people attending each one.
As far as bible knowledge is concerned, Theophilia is a member of our church. Ask him whether his bible knowledge is up to scratch; and whether he only knows what his pastor tells him ;D
|
|
theophilia
New Member
God loved me enough to meet me where I was, but too much to leave me there
Posts: 43
|
Post by theophilia on Oct 8, 2008 15:32:08 GMT -5
Dear Ron Hall, My Pastor sometimes says thing I disagree with! In our church, we are encouraged to have regular time of personal Bible Study, to ask questions, and to form our thoughts on things in a Biblically informed manner. Of course our Elders teach and instruct us, because the Bible says they're supposed to (1 Tim. 3:2, 2 Tim. 2:24, Tit. 1:9, 2:1). Each is called to be a workman approved, rightly handlng the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15). www.yorkec.org.uk In the Master's Service, Theo P.S. Otto, was that enough bible references for you to prove your point? Theo
|
|
otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by otto2 on Oct 10, 2008 3:07:02 GMT -5
I don't think you've broken sweat there dude, you must be keeping your powder dry! ;D Maybe Mr Hall thinks you're one of the zealots that he referred to, and the rest of us treat you as a guru eh? , you'll have to be careful you don't, as he says, "become quite abrasive in your beliefs" and "just an annoyance"
|
|
|
Post by ronhall on Oct 10, 2008 15:21:52 GMT -5
Hi Ron, welcome to Europe. We do have the small meeting to which you refer, in our church. We hold them every third week instead of the midweek bible study which would be a whole church meeting. The small meetings take place in an elders home, we call them "homegroups" and their purpose is exactly as you describe, to foster deeper, more personal relationships within the group, to encourage the more shy amongst us to contribute; and to share their fears and failings as well as their triumphs. We have five "homegroups" with about ten or so people attending each one. As far as bible knowledge is concerned, Theophilia is a member of our church. Ask him whether his bible knowledge is up to scratch; and whether he only knows what his pastor tells him ;D Hi, Otto2 I'm not one to go around asking people whether their Bible knowledge is "up to scratch", or whether he knows only what his pastor tells him. It is just not my style! But I have my ways of figuring it out anyway. :>) I've found that most pastors bore me to a semi-sleep condition, so if I were a regular attendee, I still wouldn't know much. I'm somewhat convinced it is a viral disease, as it seems to affect and afflict others in the same room also. Seriously, the home meeting where each one takes part puts the onus on each member to prepare something edifying to themselves as well as to the group. As you noted above, that forces one to study and dig out from the Scriptures something appropriate for each meeting. It works well for me, and glad you have found it true also.
|
|
|
Post by ronhall on Oct 10, 2008 15:47:18 GMT -5
I don't think you've broken sweat there dude, you must be keeping your powder dry! ;D Maybe Mr Hall thinks you're one of the zealots that he referred to, and the rest of us treat you as a guru eh? , you'll have to be careful you don't, as he says, "become quite abrasive in your beliefs" and "just an annoyance" Better watch it, Theo. Once you get pegged as an abrasive, annoying zealot, excommunication is at your doorstep and for the rest of your days you will experience shunning! I'm not sure what it would take to get excommunicated. Maybe sitting directly in front of the worker or pastor every Sunday with a scowl on your face and your arm raised, hand waving, interrupting, making rude body noises, etc. Actually, I wasn't thinking of you with the comment, or anyone in particular. Just an image in my mind.
|
|
otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by otto2 on Oct 11, 2008 13:24:11 GMT -5
Take it easy Ron, Theo's a good guy, I wasn't taking a pop at him, just banter. He's well read; and burdened with helping others, take a look at his response to Matt10 & rational in "unanswered prayer" a few weeks back, and the debate with ariandgabe in "Who is Jesus bible wise" on the members board (none of them pushovers in the debating stakes!) As far as I'm aware the only people who indulge in excommunication are the workers, so with respect it's more your problem than ours. Modified post: Hmmm, when I read your post again Ron, I guess you're just messin'. The written word's a strange beast, very easy to take it the wrong way 'specially if you're on the slow side like me!
|
|
theophilia
New Member
God loved me enough to meet me where I was, but too much to leave me there
Posts: 43
|
Post by theophilia on Oct 30, 2008 18:48:32 GMT -5
Dear Afore-posters,
I do like polysemic conversations.
In Him,
Arron
|
|