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Post by irvinegrey on Aug 24, 2008 14:59:57 GMT -5
One of the main movers in the beginning was William Irvine who was a Faith Mission pilgrim from Scotland mainly working in the Republic of Ireland.
In those days the Faith Mission would have generally preached a two tier salvation in that first of all a person was saved and then a second experience followed and according to them when you were saved Christ became your Saviour and when you surrendered fully to Christ he became Lord of your life. This was referred to as the second blessing, the baptism of the Holy Spirit and sometimes sanctification.
This was preached under the banner of the 'Holiness Movement'. Given the background of those early founders I believe it was likely that they would have carried some of this teaching with them.
As part of my research I would value any coments as to any evidence if this was so and if any threads of this teaching exists today.
Furthermore I would appreciate if anyone could provide me with a workers' or an overseers' definition of 'what is the gospel'?
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theophilia
New Member
God loved me enough to meet me where I was, but too much to leave me there
Posts: 43
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Post by theophilia on Aug 25, 2008 11:17:03 GMT -5
Dear Irvinegrey,
The Faith Mission is, today, a far cry from where it was then. The issue cruxed over the crisis of many Christians during the days of Dr. Martyn Llyod Jones, that is, what to make of Reformed Theology, or "Calvinism" -- though considering myself one of these, I actually think it's nothing more than the good old Gospel of Paul, and of faith in the Lord Jesus. The Holiness Movement, sparked by the charismatic renewal movements of the late 1800's, and re-empowered by the advent of similar renewal movements the 1960's and 70's, was inherently Arminian, as classicly, most pentecostal theology has been. However, in 1886, one man by the name of John George Govan was inspired on hearing accounts of the Holiness movement from friends who had attended the Keswick Convention of 1884. With the goal of leading a life wholly devoted to God, he then set about removing all personal and worldly ambition from his psyche. After several months of this, one night he came to a point where he knew that his life had been changed forever. "My friends," he later wrote, "get into this position of entire surrender to God, and real trust in Him, and then He will show you when to wait upon Him, and how long to wait upon Him; and He will visit you and bless you in a way perhaps you have little idea of now".
This indeed, sounds like a possible pre-cursor to the 'tramp preachers' method of evangelism that the 2x2's still currently practice. However, much as I've tried, I cannot find a great deal of, even early pentecostal theology in the writings of Irvine, or Carroll, or anyone, for that matter. If anyone could shed further light on this, I too would be most appreciative.
In Christ,
Theophilia
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Post by irvinegrey on Oct 31, 2008 14:04:03 GMT -5
Keswick convention speaker George Grubb came from Tipperary where Irvine first started the 2x2 and he was a regular speaker at meetings organised by Irvine during what I shall call the 'overlap' days of Irvine's time in the Faith Mission and pioneering the 2x2s until he broke with the FM in 1901. There is evidence that both Irvine and Cooney attended Kesiwck ond it was from here that they got the format for what we know today as 2x2 conventions.
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Post by september on Oct 31, 2008 17:01:10 GMT -5
Keswick convention speaker George Grubb came from Tipperary where Irvine first started the 2x2 and he was a regular speaker at meetings organised by Irvine during what I shall call the 'overlap' days of Irvine's time in the Faith Mission and pioneering the 2x2s until he broke with the FM in 1901. There is evidence that both Irvine and Cooney attended Kesiwck ond it was from here that they got the format for what we know today as 2x2 conventions. Irvine, nobody here is disputing the origins of the format for conventions. In fact, in Northern Ireland it is widely accepted (by those that give it a passing thought) that the roots of the fellowship are in the FM, that the format of the missions are almost identical to the format of FM missions and indeed, the very first hymnbook used by the fellowship, if not an FM hymnbook proper, then the hymns were lifted directly from it and in some cases, edited to reflect the accepted fellowship doctrine. I can't think why you don't speak to Paddy Roberts while she's still alive and compos mentis. There'll be much she has forgotten and much she didn't actually witness herself, but given the family in which she grew up, she'll have overheard a lot. It's a pity from your perspective that you didn't start your explorations ten years earlier. A few of the men that would have known a great deal more than Paddy are dead - Messrs. Cathcart, West and Cooke for starters.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 31, 2008 17:09:10 GMT -5
Could you share more about Messrs. Cathcart and Cooke? I am familiar with the Wests.
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Post by september on Nov 1, 2008 7:22:53 GMT -5
Could you share more about Messrs. Cathcart and Cooke? I am familiar with the Wests. They were just some of the friends that were around for much of the turbulence in the Cooney-exit era. Cathcart in particular had an encyclopaedic knowledge of much of what went on then, more so than Paddy Roberts as she was too young to know what was happening and all her recollections from that time are from what she was told by others. My grandmother who died 15 years ago had clear memories of the major players in the early days but regrettably from an historic point of view, she didn't make a record of her memories. One of her sisters did however but I've not seen what she recorded and I'm not even sure how to get my hands on it. I'd imagine much of it is family memories anyway, but given the activities surrounding their family in her youth, I'm sure some of it was about the early days of the fellowship. She died earlier this year, so that was another lost opportunity for amateur historians. There are a few of John and Sara West's grandchildren around that would have heard about the early days and the splitting of the fellowship and I'd imagine if anyone could get them to talk, now's the time. Not all are part of the fellowship and in fact one is a Church of Ireland minister in Belfast but there's always the chance that information from any of them will be biased, depending on their parent's view of the fellowship.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 1, 2008 15:48:18 GMT -5
Hi September you are obviously well clued in on the Fermanagh connection! It is my plan in the early new year to spend time talking with the Cathcarts, Wests and Cookes and a number of other families I know and hope that they will be cooperative. I will also vist paddy Roberts. She seems fairly switched on in the feature two months ago in the Impartial Reporter.
Another wonderful source of information is my 85 year old mother who remembers two female workers and their names who held a mission in their barn near Ballinamallard in 1927 and it was at those meetings her parents 'professed'. I knew Mrs West and her daughter Ida and attended meetings in their home and it was there that I met Edward Cooney. Please keep the information coming. It is all so helpful.
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Post by september on Nov 2, 2008 17:20:21 GMT -5
Hi September you are obviously well clued in on the Fermanagh connection! It is my plan in the early new year to spend time talking with the Cathcarts, Wests and Cookes and a number of other families I know and hope that they will be cooperative. I will also vist paddy Roberts. She seems fairly switched on in the feature two months ago in the Impartial Reporter. Another wonderful source of information is my 85 year old mother who remembers two female workers and their names who held a mission in their barn near Ballinamallard in 1927 and it was at those meetings her parents 'professed'. I knew Mrs West and her daughter Ida and attended meetings in their home and it was there that I met Edward Cooney. Please keep the information coming. It is all so helpful. I don't think you'll get any help from the Cooke connection - the only remaining son is in Africa. The Cathcarts are unlikely to give you anything new as the eldest son is probably only in his mid-fifties at the most and the West connection, well, all of John and Sara West's children bar two, did not have any time for the fellowship, either the Cooney branch or the Reid branch and as result, their children were raised outside the fellowship. As I've said, you may get some information from the grandchildren but it will reflect their parent's views and they're not likely to have any insight regarding doctrine or even workers names. The grandchildren that do know anything will not talk so it's pointless asking them. I'd imagine Paddy Roberts is the only one who can help you and even though she's as clear as a bell, some of her memories and impressions ought to be viewed with a degree of caution as sentiment and time will have lessened the accuracy. There is one woman now in Canada who may be able to help with the last years of Cooney's life (she nursed him on his deathbed) but I've no idea how to contact her. Paddy Roberts may be be able to help. Her name is Maureen.
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Post by september on Nov 3, 2008 2:56:02 GMT -5
Hi Theo, You wrote "However, in 1886, one man by the name of John George Govan was inspired on hearing accounts of the Holiness movement from friends who had attended the Keswick Convention of 1884." ~~~ Keswick convention of 1884? which denomination group has the Keswick convention. Who started this group? Thanks, Theo. Nathan, the Faith Mission runs Keswick Convention and if you google, you'll find dates for this year. Keswick is in a picturesque part of Cumbria called the Lake District. If you visit, you'll enjoy the sights as well as the convention. There are also plans to broadcast the event across the internet - something you may find reference to on their website.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 3, 2008 16:25:55 GMT -5
The Keswick convention was first held in 1875. One of the main movers at that time was the Anglican vicar in Keswick, Canon Harford-Battersby with a number of others who wanted to promote 'scriptural holiness'. In those early years there were a number of Anglicans and a mixture from other denonminations who ran the convention. While the Faith Mission would have supported the convention they never had a role in its organisation. I can recommend 'The Keswick Story' by John C Pollock as a fascinating, motivating and challenging read.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 3, 2008 16:36:42 GMT -5
Hi September, if you want to email me directly I am on irvinegrey@yahoo.co.uk
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Post by september on Nov 3, 2008 19:42:21 GMT -5
Nathan, the Faith Mission runs Keswick Convention and if you google, you'll find dates for this year. Keswick is in a picturesque part of Cumbria called the Lake District. If you visit, you'll enjoy the sights as well as the convention. There are also plans to broadcast the event across the internet - something you may find reference to on their website. ~~~ Thanks. How could they have their own Keswick convention in 1884 when John Govan founded the Faith Mission church/group in 1886.Sounds like another group is fudging the truth about its origins. Must be a hereditary trait... ;D
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Post by melissa on Nov 4, 2008 11:49:24 GMT -5
Hi September you are obviously well clued in on the Fermanagh connection! It is my plan in the early new year to spend time talking with the Cathcarts, Wests and Cookes and a number of other families I know and hope that they will be cooperative. I will also vist paddy Roberts. She seems fairly switched on in the feature two months ago in the Impartial Reporter. Another wonderful source of information is my 85 year old mother who remembers two female workers and their names who held a mission in their barn near Ballinamallard in 1927 and it was at those meetings her parents 'professed'. I knew Mrs West and her daughter Ida and attended meetings in their home and it was there that I met Edward Cooney. Please keep the information coming. It is all so helpful. I don't think you'll get any help from the Cooke connection - the only remaining son is in Africa. The Cathcarts are unlikely to give you anything new as the eldest son is probably only in his mid-fifties at the most and the West connection, well, all of John and Sara West's children bar two, did not have any time for the fellowship, either the Cooney branch or the Reid branch and as result, their children were raised outside the fellowship. As I've said, you may get some information from the grandchildren but it will reflect their parent's views and they're not likely to have any insight regarding doctrine or even workers names. The grandchildren that do know anything will not talk so it's pointless asking them. I'd imagine Paddy Roberts is the only one who can help you and even though she's as clear as a bell, some of her memories and impressions ought to be viewed with a degree of caution as sentiment and time will have lessened the accuracy. There is one woman now in Canada who may be able to help with the last years of Cooney's life (she nursed him on his deathbed) but I've no idea how to contact her. Paddy Roberts may be be able to help. Her name is Maureen. Since when do children necessarily reflect their parents'views???
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Post by melissa on Nov 4, 2008 11:53:11 GMT -5
Paddy Roberts will give you an earfull when she hears the sweeping statements you have made about her vulnerability to sentiment!!! Watch your words!
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Post by september on Nov 4, 2008 14:14:41 GMT -5
Paddy Roberts will give you an earfull when she hears the sweeping statements you have made about her vulnerability to sentiment!!! Watch your words! I'm certain Paddy would have a chuckle and likely agree. I happen to know her well enough to know that giving an "earfull" [sic] is not in her nature. A near contemporary of Paddy's concurs with much of her writings but without having an axe to grind has said that some of her memories are hazy and not always accurate reflections of what (in their opinion) took place. It just serves to highlight the adage: there are two sides to every story, therefore I took it upon myself to recommend caution. I'd imagine Irvine Grey has the necessary intellectual ability to render my urgings superfluous. As for children's views reflecting their parent's views, in the cases I mention above it must necessarily be true to a significant degree as the children in question had little or no exposure to the fellowship either in their childhood or adulthood. How would they develop an authoritative contrary view?
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Post by melissa on Nov 7, 2008 6:14:44 GMT -5
Clearly you do not know her well enough. Wait till you do.
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Post by september on Nov 7, 2008 13:06:01 GMT -5
Clearly you do not know her well enough. Wait till you do. How odd of you to presume how ill I know the lady in question.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 8, 2008 16:41:43 GMT -5
From Melissa's and September's coments I think there is a strong 'Fermanagh' connection here. I don't think that I have ever met Paddy Roberts but I recall meeting Sybil Roberts at house meetings in the home of Miss Ida West in the late fifties and early sixties. Ida's mother was quite an old lady then.
As far as children giving a fair relection of parents views, I think this is quite probable since over the years they hear discussions and sit in meetings and hear testimonies.
I have met one lady in the UK mainland that has a hoard of memorabilia that date back to the twenties, these include notes of preaching, photographs, workers lists, convention speakers. This type of information is invaluable for my research and I am sure this must be lots of this type of information, especially in Fermanagh. If you have any or you know a source of it feel free to contact me directly. irvinegrey@yahoo.co.uk.
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Post by irvinegrey on Mar 1, 2009 14:04:21 GMT -5
In an attempt to move my research along please vist my website, www.irvinegrey.com. Any information or suggestions will be gladly received
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