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Post by gratefulforgrace on May 21, 2008 1:47:23 GMT -5
I know many people don't agree with my "interpretation". That makes me really sad. You are entitled to your own opinion, also, as Gem already said. But I have no understanding at all how your conscience allows you to keep that particular opinion.
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Post by aileen on May 21, 2008 3:15:45 GMT -5
I understand that if you view abortion as murder that it is hard to understand how people could support it.
Do you think that all those who support abortion as legal have a problem with their conscience, or with their understanding of the act?
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Post by gratefulforgrace on May 21, 2008 3:30:51 GMT -5
I understand that if you view abortion as murder that it is hard to understand how people could support it. Do you think that all those who support abortion as legal have a problem with their conscience, or with their understanding of the act? I think anyone who supports abortion either doesn't understand that it is murder, or has serious problems sleeping at night. Does that answer your question. Not exactly sure what you meant by your question.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 21, 2008 4:35:08 GMT -5
aileen, step away from the TV and pick up a Bible.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 21, 2008 4:37:19 GMT -5
Back to the topic: The UK parliament debated the abortion issue at length over the last 2 days and eventually agreed by a significant majority to retain the status quo. That is that abortion is legal until the 24 week term. Interestingly while there was a significant body of opinion that it should be reduced to 20 or even 12 weeks, there was little push for total abolition. At what point did Parliament become God in your mind, aileen?
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Post by aileen on May 21, 2008 4:40:58 GMT -5
It seems unlikely that those that support abortion actually loose sleep over the question, so the real deciding point is probably the question of is abortion murder or not. If they did "loose sleep" over the question, they'd do something about it and change their views and actions. So clearly those supporters do not see it as murder. (Assuming most people are against murder, a fairly safe assumption).
This leads to the question of definitions of murder, who commits it, who is the sufferer, etc. For example we'd probably agree that kiling a cow isn't murder (or any other animal), (but even then, some animal activists would claim it is.)
Next the question of the fetus. Is it a human in the legal sense? In the moral sense? And the question gets wider ... into such questions as is it ever "right" to take a human life? What about execution? war? "for the greater good" etc.
The more the can of worms is opened, the more worms it seems to contain.
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Post by gratefulforgrace on May 21, 2008 4:44:18 GMT -5
In general, I like my answers to all those questions to come from the Bible. If John was able to leap with joy in the womb, he was human in the womb. If God knew Jeremiah in the womb, Jeremiah was human in the womb. That seems so simple to me.
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Post by aileen on May 21, 2008 4:59:24 GMT -5
aileen, step away from the TV and pick up a Bible. What has the TV got to do with this? Are you making some assumption about how much time I watch TV?
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Post by aileen on May 21, 2008 5:00:34 GMT -5
Back to the topic: The UK parliament debated the abortion issue at length over the last 2 days and eventually agreed by a significant majority to retain the status quo. That is that abortion is legal until the 24 week term. Interestingly while there was a significant body of opinion that it should be reduced to 20 or even 12 weeks, there was little push for total abolition. At what point did Parliament become God in your mind, aileen? Where did this assumption come from? Did I say anything about Parliament being God? To answer directly, Parliament has never in my mind become God.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 21, 2008 7:31:19 GMT -5
Then why do you cite Parliament's decision on the issue of whether abortion is murder and is wrong?
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Post by aileen on May 21, 2008 7:55:18 GMT -5
Then why do you cite Parliament's decision on the issue of whether abortion is murder and is wrong? I noted that you didn't answer the question, but just asked another. In the spirit of tying to communicate, lets address your question... This was a highly topical issue. It was raised here on this board (not by me) and at almost the same time was being debated in the "English" parliament. The outcome of their debate was, I thought, quite relevant to this discussion. Thats the reason that I mentioned it. That you have answered my question with another implies (but I'm guessing) that you see my quoting the westminster debate outcome as my somehow placing their authority higher than God. I don't, but it is a sad fact that in the immediacy of the moment, we are regulated by the outpourings of that bunch of people we elect to run the country. (We meaning UK populace). We elect them to study questions of complexity and make decision on our behalf. When we disagree with much of what they do we chhuck them out. We have that opportunity at least 4 yearly. We live in a democracy, not a Theocracy. Those that can't stand that idea have the option to relocate to elsewhere. (sounds like something Howard in Oz is reputed to have said??) I wonder if this makes it easier for you to explain what made you think that in my mind Parliament had become God.?
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juju
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Post by juju on May 21, 2008 14:20:10 GMT -5
Aileen. I want to say that I really admire your thoughts and approach on this topic. I have no real opinion...other than that contraception and abortion are both really personal topics. I think common sense and circumstances should be major factors in decision making. God gave all of us common sense!!!!!! People who have tunnel vision, really have tunnel vision!
For those of you who are so Anti abortion..........try being raped by your slimy, creepy uncle when you are 13....and then giving birth to said slimy,creepy uncles baby. Abortion is a wonderful choice/option when used wisely.......and whose to say whats wise and what isn't. If you feel really strongly about something..abstain...but done get up on your soap box and demand everyone in the whole world think and feel and do as you do!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2008 14:35:14 GMT -5
For those of you who are so Anti abortion..........try being raped by your slimy, creepy uncle when you are 13....and then giving birth to said slimy,creepy uncles baby. Abortion is a wonderful choice/option when used wisely.......and whose to say whats wise and what isn't. If you feel really strongly about something..abstain...but done get up on your soap box and demand everyone in the whole world think and feel and do as you do! You can justify the murder of unborn children quite easily... But can you stomach viewing video of the procedure you call "wonderful" I doubt it... Tell me what's wonderful about taking a human being and ripping it apart limb from limb? Taking a vacuum and sucking the child's brains out? Pathetic... Murder is murder... no matter if you put a happy face on it or not!
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juju
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Post by juju on May 21, 2008 15:25:02 GMT -5
For those of you who are so Anti abortion..........try being raped by your slimy, creepy uncle when you are 13....and then giving birth to said slimy,creepy uncles baby. Abortion is a wonderful choice/option when used wisely.......and whose to say whats wise and what isn't. If you feel really strongly about something..abstain...but done get up on your soap box and demand everyone in the whole world think and feel and do as you do! You can justify the murder of unborn children quite easily... But can you stomach viewing video of the procedure you call "wonderful" I doubt it... Tell me what's wonderful about taking a human being and ripping it apart limb from limb? Taking a vacuum and sucking the child's brains out? Pathetic... Murder is murder... no matter if you put a happy face on it or not! Have you ever been impregnated by rape river?
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Post by aileen on May 21, 2008 15:25:06 GMT -5
Its quite easy to dramatise abortion. The posts above unintentionally does that with the words used. But its also easy to use such words and thoughts with matters found to be generally acceptable today.
Take chicken, a meat many of us eat. I've been in a chicken abbatoir. These poor defenceless creatures are hung upside down, screaming their heads off, until the knife cuts that same head off. The blood squirts out, pumped by a heat that has only a few beats to go until it expires. Next the feathers rumbled off by rubber fingers lpucking the last shreds of life from the poor defenceless creature. The guts spilled out by the murderers knife...
and so on
But we don't think of it like that. Its acceptable to just enjoy the fruits of this murder, when we place that tray of checken breasts in the shopping trolley, that white clean meat, lean meat, good for you they say.
Now I don't equate human life with that of a chicken, most us don't. But what is the real difference? The difference is conditioning. We are conditioned to accept some things and not others. And then we embellish that conditioning with our own spices and icing of thoughts and words that suit us.
The anti-abortion cmap and the pro-abortion camp might never agree. Its likely that both have valid points to make about the misery of unwanted children versus the murder of unborn ones. About the misery and suffering of children allowed to come to term and be born only to die for lack of support and norishment, love, warmth after birth. About the tearing of a defenceless body by an agressive death device called abortion with its ugly tools.
But those points will likely be lost on each other behind the smokescreen of emotion, of driven desire to win the argument. Of ideals and politics, of all manner of stuff that we humans are good at. And lost so that we cannot ever see each others side of the argument.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2008 15:52:19 GMT -5
You can justify the murder of unborn children quite easily... But can you stomach viewing video of the procedure you call "wonderful" I doubt it... Tell me what's wonderful about taking a human being and ripping it apart limb from limb? Taking a vacuum and sucking the child's brains out? Pathetic... Murder is murder... no matter if you put a happy face on it or not! Have you ever been impregnated by rape river? More attempts to justify murder? I wonder what kind of sound the vacuum makes as it sucks the child's brains out through their skull... Just close your eyes and imagine...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2008 15:56:03 GMT -5
And lost so that we cannot ever see each others side of the argument. The other side of the argument is murder... Sure, you can fail in an attempt to talk about chickens.... how absurd... but a child is not a chicken... Keep on putting a happy face on the murder of unborn children... Go on... justify it in your own mind... Perhaps if someone were to post images of the severed limbs of murdered children your tune might change... But somehow I doubt it...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2008 16:03:20 GMT -5
Just went to google... searched for abortion... and then clicked images at the top to view pictures under the search "abortion"...
I wonder if juju and aileen are willing to view images of what they advocate?
Or are they cowards...
I would suspect the latter... cowardly fools who are unwilling to face the reality of what they promote and advocate...
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juju
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Post by juju on May 21, 2008 16:42:41 GMT -5
No promoting or advocating on my part. Just openmindedness.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2008 16:46:16 GMT -5
No promoting or advocating on my part. Just openmindedness. Sorry, but there's nothing openminded about murdering unborn children... ripping them limb from limb and vacuuming their brains out...
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Post by Baby troll on May 21, 2008 16:49:05 GMT -5
No mommy please, PLEASE mommy no, please I don't want to die please mommy please no moooooommmmyyyyyyyyyy !!!
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Post by gem unlogged on May 21, 2008 17:17:42 GMT -5
I believe that abortion and contraception are very personal issues. And again I state, even though we do strongly disagree in our viewpoints, we are entitled to our opinions.
I don't think, juju, that those who disagree with you/others opinions are on a soapbox. Its how we feel. You feel differently.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 21, 2008 18:20:49 GMT -5
Abortion and forms of so-called "contraception" which can cause abortions are just as much personal issues as any other form of murder.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 21, 2008 18:22:20 GMT -5
Have you ever been impregnated by rape river? Have you ever had your brain sucked out by a vacuum juju?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 21, 2008 18:28:34 GMT -5
Psalm 24: The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. God defines truth, not the majority of a group of men. Allowing Parliament to make the decision to permit what God has condemned is making Parliament your god. If you don't allow Parliament to make that decision, good for you. But you should not allow yourself to make it either.
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Post by Brick on May 21, 2008 20:17:04 GMT -5
Where is the "judge not that ye be not judged" in your position? It has been my experience that under certain circumstances, your paradigm shifts and what was once murder may be ridding yourself of a parisite. I'm not making a statement. All I am saying is that I won't judge a woman who opts for an abortion until I am pregnant but unwilling to carry the baby to full term.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 21, 2008 22:33:29 GMT -5
In what way do you think "judge not, that ye be not judged" should apply here? That principle was not intended to approve immoral acts. It doesn't apply to the question of whether murder is wrong. Murder is forbidden in the Old Testament and this is reaffirmed in the New Testament. It's immoral, no exceptions. Anyone who considers a baby human being, her own child even, to be a parasite is rejecting "love thy neighbor", among other commandments.
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Post by Brick on May 22, 2008 4:31:06 GMT -5
All I am saying, friend, is that I don't have it all figured out. And I won't assume to judge someone whose shoes I haven't walked a mile in. I don't see everything as black and white, right or wrong. I'm glad you have it have it all figured out, but show a little patience with those of us who still have to make hard choices.
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