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Post by rational on Mar 6, 2008 2:22:17 GMT -5
This was definitely written by Rational: And you have some data to back up your claim? We are talking about the sexual abuse of children. I think the point was that the victim didn't feel bad until someone told them they they should. This is not an issue for God to deal with. If God really was concerned about child abuse there would be no child abuse. After all, being omniscient and omnipotent does give one a definite advantage over those who abuse. I think part of the problem is that this is looked at as a spiritual issue when it is a criminal issue of abuse.
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Post by rational on Mar 6, 2008 2:37:10 GMT -5
Not at all. I am suggesting that they have an innate sense of wrong in both cases, but the insidiousness of sexual abuse reaches deep under and causes more inner conflict and confusion. With other forms of abuse it's more clearcut for them, and they react better to protect themselves. You believe the sense of right and wrong is genetically passed down from parents to their offspring? This would fly in the face of what is known about the learning process. You know, tabula rasa and all. Again, I am not saying that any abuse is 'better' than another. I just feel that in the case of sexual abuse there is a completely different reaction. And the very nature of the reaction contributes to the victim's reaction to the event. Read the reactions of the posters in this thread. The adjectives used are very different from those used to describe, for example, physical abuse. It is along the lines of the saying regarding rape as a "fate worse than death".
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Post by someguy on Mar 6, 2008 14:36:16 GMT -5
rational wrote
"This is not an issue for God to deal with. If God really was concerned about child abuse there would be no child abuse. After all, being omniscient and omnipotent does give one a definite advantage over those who abuse."
Wow are you serious? 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Are you saying that if God is omnisicent and omnipotent than certainly everyone must be saved right? He would never let any perish would he? Yet many perish not coming to repentance no? If God really cared about murder there would be no murder then? Is this what you are saying? Have you no idea what it means to be given our own natures and wills and having a Father who wants people to love Him and serve Him out of love. We have the freedom to choose, hopefully to serve and worship out of love but that means we can make poor choices as well. Therefore, there are evil people who make poor choices and sexually abuse children, this is against Gods will, isn't it?
I seriously wonder where you are on this. I believe you need to spend some time with someone who has been raped or sexually abused to begin to try to understand the lose of innocence, the guilt, the pain, the lose of self worth that continues for years, sometimes for the rest of their lives. This is something that God cares deeply about, maybe it is you who needs to care more.
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Post by rational on Mar 6, 2008 15:05:42 GMT -5
Wow are you serious? 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Yes I am serous. Perhaps you could explain a being that will let innocent children suffer as an object lesson. That is exactly what I am saying. You seem to be the expert on god and his will. However, as an omnipotent and omniscient being he knows that someone is going to harm an innocent child, has the power and means to prevent an innocent child from being harmed, yet stands by and allows it to happen. If you did that in Texas you would be arrested for not coming to the aid of the child or at least reporting the abuser. Since god knew about the act and could have prevented it, I would have to say that god condones child abuse. Perhaps you could shed some light on why this is not the case. God condones the act. I do not.
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Post by someguy on Mar 6, 2008 15:13:22 GMT -5
hmm interesting Rational. I guess you are saying exactly what I thought you were saying. To be honest, I don't understand you and I need to think on this a little before I respond. I wouldn't say God condones this evil action but I do see what you are saying by Him not stopping it when He easily could.
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Post by rational on Mar 6, 2008 16:46:34 GMT -5
hmm interesting Rational. I guess you are saying exactly what I thought you were saying. To be honest, I don't understand you and I need to think on this a little before I respond. I wouldn't say God condones this evil action but I do see what you are saying by Him not stopping it when He easily could. Look up the definition of condone. I thought it fit but I could be in error. I look forward to your response.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 7:14:43 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Mar 7, 2008 7:57:01 GMT -5
Yes, Edgar, that is what I am suggesting the case is if you want to consider this a spiritual matter. First of all, I do not believe it is a spiritual issue. It is a criminal issue. I believe it is wrong and the criminals should be reported, regardless of their status in society. However, if you want to bring god into the picture regarding this, then Yes, god himself would have to be condoning the behavior. If you, just as a man, know someone is abusing your child and you have overwhelming power to stop that person from abusing your child but choose to allow the criminal to continue abusing your child, then I believe you have condoned that person's behavior. condone tr.v. To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure. Houghton Mifflin CompanyAs soon as you allow criminal matters to be treated as spiritual matters the condoning, forgiving, overlooking, etc. begins.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 8:50:56 GMT -5
Although I doubt if it is true -- If this was the feeling that 2x2 leadership has, then it would explain the acceptance of sexual child abuse by workers within the group --- and why just moving the offenders around is regarded as the best solution.
To me, any doctrine that would regard sexual child abuse as an issue that is morally acceptable in a spiritual context is quite anti-Christian.
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Post by Brick on Mar 7, 2008 9:09:27 GMT -5
I think that is exactly the attitude of much of the 2x2 leadership. "It's in God's hands." All well and good, I suppose if your faith is strong enough to just put everything in God's hands. For me, I'm a bit more proactive. For matters of health, I see a doctor. When my car has a problem, I take it to a mechanic. If a crime was committed, I would go the the legal authorities.
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Post by slow to see on Mar 7, 2008 9:16:19 GMT -5
quote- Since god knew about the act and could have prevented it, I would have to say that god condones child abuse. Perhaps you could shed some light on why this is not the case.
Hi,
"God's terrible insistence on human freedom is so absolute that he granted us the power to live as though He does not exist"-Philip Yancey
Alvin
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Post by rational on Mar 7, 2008 10:08:13 GMT -5
Although I doubt if it is true -- If this was the feeling that 2x2 leadership has, then it would explain the acceptance of sexual child abuse by workers within the group --- and why just moving the offenders around is regarded as the best solution. To me, any doctrine that would regard sexual child abuse as an issue that is morally acceptable in a spiritual context is quite anti-Christian. Edgar, I do not believe it is morally acceptable and I have a strong feeling that most people believe this way as well. I am not sure what you doubt is true. However, experience shows that god doesn't care about the children being abused and isn't taking care of them. If you can point to some children who somehow to show in some way that god cares you have to answer the question as to why some other children are left to their own devices.
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Post by yep on Mar 7, 2008 12:41:57 GMT -5
I think that is exactly the attitude of much of the 2x2 leadership. "It's in God's hands." All well and good, I suppose if your faith is strong enough to just put everything in God's hands. For me, I'm a bit more proactive. For matters of health, I see a doctor. When my car has a problem, I take it to a mechanic. If a crime was committed, I would go the the legal authorities. ;D I have a brother in-law who decided it was time to leave home before he was 18, in part because his Dad sat the whole family done to pray that their car would be fixed. (But their faith wasn't strong enough)
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Post by a mother on Mar 7, 2008 13:54:38 GMT -5
Back to the child molestation topic:
Is there a post or thread that deals with helping parents know how to go about asking their children about experiences with known abusers?
This has been a background topic for me since thus far I knew none of the accused but I have recently been approached by a worker asking if my children had had any experiences with two male workers we have been close to in the past.
To my knowledge, nothing happened, and we're pretty watchful parents, but it still bothers me that something could have taken place I was unaware of. However... I'm not one to want to put ideas into my kids minds that something occurred when it didn't.
It hurts to know that we've been brought up to be suspicious of the neighbor who rides the motorbike and has an earring and ponytail and then our kids are at risk from supposedly god-fearing, righteous salt of the earth men.
Any help from the counseling department is appreciated, thanks.
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Post by rational on Mar 7, 2008 14:34:15 GMT -5
Back to the child molestation topic: Is there a post or thread that deals with helping parents know how to go about asking their children about experiences with known abusers? This has been a background topic for me since thus far I knew none of the accused but I have recently been approached by a worker asking if my children had had any experiences with two male workers we have been close to in the past. To my knowledge, nothing happened, and we're pretty watchful parents, but it still bothers me that something could have taken place I was unaware of. However... I'm not one to want to put ideas into my kids minds that something occurred when it didn't. It hurts to know that we've been brought up to be suspicious of the neighbor who rides the motorbike and has an earring and ponytail and then our kids are at risk from supposedly god-fearing, righteous salt of the earth men. Any help from the counseling department is appreciated, thanks. If there are no signs that the children were molested why would you bring up the topic at all? You could talk about what is and is not appropriate touching as a precaution against future possibilities and that should bring up the history if there was any. The education of the parents and children is the best defense against child abuse. Your children should know they can talk to you about any topic safely - that is they will not be punished for it. That way they trust you and you will be told of their experiences and will know of there is any contact that looks like it is headed into an inappropriate area.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 7, 2008 17:02:47 GMT -5
Howdy a mother, In regards to your question: Is there a post or thread that deals with helping parents know how to go about asking their children about experiences with known abusers? Here is a website that has a lot of interesting information on it. It has a section which will address your question I think. www.wingsfortruth.info/This website is called W.I.N.G.S. which stands for "Working to INform Guide and Support those who have been sexually abused in the Truth Fellowship.
I am sure that you will find lots of answers there to almost any question you may have.Scott
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Post by opps on Mar 7, 2008 18:40:16 GMT -5
Scott, I'm not sure that's the correct link
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 7, 2008 19:25:54 GMT -5
Try again - the link worked for me.
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Post by juliette on Mar 7, 2008 19:27:21 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Mar 7, 2008 20:05:20 GMT -5
I was going to a php page that provided a way to analyze the log files.
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Post by opps on Mar 7, 2008 20:06:39 GMT -5
Thanks, (thought I was losing it)
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ladyvot2
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Post by ladyvot2 on Mar 8, 2008 7:53:25 GMT -5
Good Morning to All, I visited the awesome new website, "WINGS OF TRUTH!" "Congratulations on a job very well done." The site feels comfortable and safe and it is a "Gift from God," to help parents and all victims of sexual abuse who have been terribly impacted. This wonderful website offers transparency and a vehicle to stop worker abuse. You are reaching out to hurting people with kindness and gentleness. This website "WILL" get through to the hearts of hurting people!!!! Incredible job......to all of you who have given of your time to create this incredible source of information. Thank you so much, Cheryle "VOT" Administrator www.veteransoftruth.com
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2008 8:09:29 GMT -5
The site in itself is thought provocative just in the fact that the sexual child abuse within the 2x2 group is unique enough that it merits its own web site. -- I also commend it.
Sexual child abuse is, of course, nothing that the 2x2 group has any kind of a monopoly on, but there are a number of doctinal ingrediences within group thinking that make it more difficult to deal with (and protect vulnerable children) than in society in general.
One unique aspect of 2x2ism is the doctrine that workers, because of their higher calling, must be trusted as morally higher than all other people in the world. This creates an ideal environment for workers as potential preditors. -- Unless there is 100% forensic proof otherwise, any critisizm of a worker is regarded as critisizm against God himself -- and evidence of a 'bad spirit' -- and worthy of punishment (in many cases expulsion)
The policy of workers living in the homes (with unlimited access) of potential victims is also a clear sexual security risk for children.
The very clear leadership policy that suspisions of sexual impropriaty must be kept secret means that the ordinary protection mechanizm in society, of families sharing concern with each other, is effectively destroyed.
Perhaps one of the most critical (well established) 2x2 leadership policies is that suspected child molesters are simply moved to more unsuspecting enviornments. There is nearly always a major reason for field change -- , but it is very very seldom explained. This means that, inadvertantly, preditors have a whole organization covering up for them -- and protecting their dangerous secrets.
Then even in the instances when they are 'caught red handed' the worst that happens is they are asked to quietly leave the work, and most often are placed in a new unsuspecting environment, where no one is allowed to discuss or get information as to dangers involved (ex. Saskatoon at the moment)
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Post by degem on Mar 8, 2008 11:26:50 GMT -5
Without revealing personal details about myself, I can only say I am so GLAD for what Lyle has done /is doing about the child molestation issue. I think he has established a precedent which is very MUCH needed. Years ago I never would have posted how I feel about issues like this or even posted on any board. I would have felt intimidated. I would have worried what people thought of me if they knew who I was. But I have learned a lot . I have seen both sides of the picture , so to speak, of those who once went to meeting and why they don't now. I understand better now why they feel so much hurt and pain from the experiences they have gone through. I have wondered what would be my reactions if I had suffered those same experiences? I will be honest, my faith sure would have been tested . I may even have quit going to meeting because of them. We, as individuals, just don't know how we would react if faced with such situations. To those of you go to meeting like I do, I love it. I can't explain to others how I feel. It dwells with in my heart. But I don't have blinders on when it comes to the shortcomings of those who go to meeting. And of those who don't . I have a lot of shortcomings. We all have them. We are all people who have feelings and emotions. It is very hard at times for me to do but I try to keep my focus on Jesus. He is the perfect example for us to follow. He is the only example we should be following. All of the above are just how I feel. There will be those who don't agree I know. But I feel acceptance of each other goes a long way.
Hope you all have a wonderful weekend. Don't forget to turn your clocks ahead tonight.
Gem
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Post by degem on Mar 8, 2008 11:27:46 GMT -5
I meant to say turn your clocks ahead one hour tonight
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Post by rational on Mar 8, 2008 14:37:56 GMT -5
The site in itself is thought provocative just in the fact that the sexual child abuse within the 2x2 group is unique enough that it merits its own web site. -- I also commend it. Come on Edgar. Give me 20 minutes and I could have a site up and running that would point out the flaws in the arguments of Edgar Massey. That would not mean that any of it was true, that is was at all unique or that there was any merit to the site. I do hope it will help to educate people about the problem but trying to tie the fact there is a www site about the problem and implying it shows this any more of a problem within the F&W than any other group is just wrong. Can you support this with any details of factual information? Compared to, for example, the Pope who does speak for God? How are the F&W unique? Again, not a unique trait of the F&W. Perhaps the problem here is the parents who give strangers unlimited access. Unfortunately, accusing someone of a crime without proof leads to all sorts of problems. This is clearly wrong but I believe in most cases there is not just suspicion but proof and the victims/parents/guardians went to the workers to report a crime and that is as far as it goes. Never would have been the case if the matter was brought to the authorities first and the workers second. Again, the workers are the ones handling the situation instead of the people whose job to deal with these problems.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2008 3:06:05 GMT -5
Sorry rational, I feel you are wrong - and will restate my concerns about 2x2 and sexual abuse of children. The interest in this thread measured by number of reads is also an indicator.
The site "WINGS OF TRUTH!" in itself is thought provocative just in the fact that the sexual child abuse within the 2x2 group is unique enough that it merits its own web site. -- I also commend it.
Sexual child abuse is, of course, nothing that the 2x2 group has any kind of a monopoly on, but there are a number of doctinal ingrediences within group thinking that make it more difficult to deal with (and protect vulnerable children) than in society in general.
One unique aspect of 2x2ism is the doctrine that workers, because of their higher calling, must be trusted as morally higher than all other people in the world. This creates an ideal environment for workers as potential preditors. -- Unless there is 100% forensic proof otherwise, any critisizm of a worker is regarded as critisizm against God himself -- and evidence of a 'bad spirit' -- and worthy of punishment (in many cases expulsion)
The policy of workers living in the homes (with unlimited access) of potential victims is also a clear sexual security risk for children.
The very clear leadership policy that suspisions of sexual impropriaty must be kept secret means that the ordinary protection mechanizm in society, of families sharing concern with each other, is effectively destroyed.
Perhaps one of the most critical (well established) 2x2 leadership policies is that suspected child molesters are simply moved to more unsuspecting enviornments. There is nearly always a major reason for field change -- , but it is very very seldom explained. This means that, inadvertantly, preditors have a whole organization covering up for them -- and protecting their dangerous secrets.
Then even in the instances when they are 'caught red handed' the worst that happens is they are asked to quietly leave the work, and most often are placed in a new unsuspecting environment, where no one is allowed to discuss or get information as to dangers involved (ex. Saskatoon at the moment)
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Post by ex-teenager on Mar 9, 2008 10:25:30 GMT -5
I think by blaming "2x2 leadership" for sex abuse is missing the point. Alot children are abused at home than anywere, the people who abuse are usually relatives. Thats the problem. Get rid of the idea of workers being infaliable, is fair enough. But the issue of child abuse wont disappear from society. 2500 workers out of 6billion people, I dont think they are doing all the abusing.
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