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Post by wingsofaneagle on Sept 27, 2007 17:22:53 GMT -5
Pedophilia is nothing new. We're just more "enlightened" about it now and it's hitting the news. The Catholic Church scandals brought it to the forefront of people's attention.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2007 21:59:51 GMT -5
Tonight on a doco here...they said that 'child sexual abuse is an epidemic that is only just being acknowledged. Usually priests, boy scouts leaders and family who are the pedophiles'. My guess is that there is actually less of it occurring today even though there are many more reported cases. Society is more open about it, there is more help and less shame for victims so much more discussion and reporting occurs. Parents are more likely to abuse-proof their children. My own daughter escaped an advance partly due to her knowledge and training. It's going in the right direction in my view, but there is long way to go yet.
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Post by jwbdurston on Sept 28, 2007 20:46:15 GMT -5
You guys are so blind and offtrack with your stats its bizzare.......a true reflection of the Friends, Workers and meetings
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Post by jwbdurston on Sept 28, 2007 20:48:39 GMT -5
While the Church is indeed the only true church upon the earth, there are false sons and daughters within her pale whom the Lord will surely uproot and cast into the furnace. But beyond this membrane of legal boundaries and processes stands one inescapable fact to which all Christians are bound by the Word of God to give assent: the true mover of abuse; the true force of evil, is sin. And sin is above all things deceitful. It is a fair enough proposition that libellous speech be not permitted on the TMB. I have long protested that the saints in the Church are maligned and accused disgracefully and unfairly of all manner of evils, many of which are beyond the capacity of man to prove. The reputations of God's people should be preserved. Yet I also believe our activity against abuse should never remain in the realm of gossip and information trading on the internet. Our weapons of battle are not those which may be seen; our greatest force against evil are the invisible powers of God which comes through prayer. It comes through faith mate and liveing it out.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 29, 2007 4:31:00 GMT -5
You guys are so blind and offtrack with your stats its bizzare.......a true reflection of the Friends, Workers and meetings awwwww jwwww. another gross generalization. that's just sooo cute!
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Post by freeagent on Sept 29, 2007 20:19:42 GMT -5
"We need a new culture in the f&w church. One that constantly asks, "what are we doing wrong, and how can we make things right?" instead of focusing on "we are the only right people on earth". " Amen! Now, if F&W can admit that they have some wrong, the first thing that will need to admit is that they have cut themselves off from the rest of the body of Christ. That's why this severed limb is gangrene!
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Post by jwbdurston on Sept 30, 2007 22:28:34 GMT -5
Honestly mate, the only answer is to get out. Are the friends, workers and meetings acult?
You need to read this thread
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Post by Through their eyes on Oct 1, 2007 14:26:12 GMT -5
My guess is that there is actually less of it occurring today even though there are many more reported cases. Society is more open about it, there is more help and less shame for victims so much more discussion and reporting occurs. Parents are more likely to abuse-proof their children. My own daughter escaped an advance partly due to her knowledge and training. It's going in the right direction in my view, but there is long way to go yet. I have a feeling there is much less. Remember, children were once considered to be expendable. They were put out to work at a very early age (5-6) as late as tye early 1900 in the US and England. In the OT they were captured (female virgins) and the victors were allowed to do with them as they wished. Children were sold by their families as a source of income.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2007 15:18:03 GMT -5
My guess is that there is actually less of it occurring today even though there are many more reported cases. Society is more open about it, there is more help and less shame for victims so much more discussion and reporting occurs. Parents are more likely to abuse-proof their children. My own daughter escaped an advance partly due to her knowledge and training. It's going in the right direction in my view, but there is long way to go yet. I have a feeling there is much less. Remember, children were once considered to be expendable. They were put out to work at a very early age (5-6) as late as tye early 1900 in the US and England. In the OT they were captured (female virgins) and the victors were allowed to do with them as they wished. Children were sold by their families as a source of income. It really depends on the yardstick one uses. You're right, what is considered egregious abuse today was considered normal a century or two ago. So that's big part of it. Today's Globe and Mail reports that : "TORONTO — The Children's Aid Societies says more than 29,000 children in Ontario were abused or neglected last year, an increase of 24 per cent since 2000-2001. The child and family welfare agency also says it received more than 160,000 calls about child protection concerns last year, an increase of 25 per cent." Of course, one has to look beyond the raw data. For one thing, staffing is 'way up with the CAS since 2000-1, so the statistics will get skewed on that alone. Add to that refinements in the definition of abuse over the last decade, plus a more open society where reporting is encouraged more, and then the statistics look horrible. However, abuse may be down regardless. BTW, the breakdown of those statistics were : "Nearly one-third of all child-related investigations of abuse involved exposure to domestic violence or neglect. Another 15 per cent involved emotional abuse, 10 per cent were physical abuse cases and 3 per cent involved sexual abuse."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2007 2:03:35 GMT -5
Edgar, While you were a worker, did you see the problem. If you did, what did you do about it? and Edgar, if you are going to edit your posts, please show the edit. Fair question -- Most of the extreme ugliness in the 2x2 group has come to my attention after our exit from the group. As a group member, investigation is regarded as the mark of a 'bad spirit' -- and few dare to do anything but accept 2x2 leaderships explanation of negative issues. Once we were exed I have not been influenced by this 'investigation ban' that applies to membership (and workers) -- The amazing thing is how easy investigation is on many of the scandals (if the will to investigate exists)-- and it is rather unfathomable how extremely ugly things have been kept from public knowledge by simply saying (and enforcing) the 'trust the workers' parole that is a prime point of doctrine in the group. To answer your question, while I was in the work, and even afterwards while I was still 'proffessing', I followed 'company policy' "ask no questions and I will give you no lies" -- so I was unaware of most of the horror that was going on. I am not proud of it today. Edgar
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2007 6:02:50 GMT -5
I realize it is pointless to argue with you, but somehow I believe that we were not in the same church when I was "Professing".
Your remerberence of experiences are far different to mine.
If we say that there are 350000 "proffesing" people in the world. Lets say that there are 4000 workers. Lets say that there have been 7 generations. So out of 24+ million people and 28000 workers, there have been some, I have no idea how many, extreme cases of evil workers and evil "professing" people. Hardly one on every corner.
No one condones evil, most would agree that one evil person is one too many.
Justification of yourself and your actions will not come about by you raking up dirt and treating the unusual and the norm.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2007 9:44:14 GMT -5
Casper, one of the reasons why there is the amount of corruption as there is in your group, is because it has become group policy to ignore it -- and instead discredit the folks who bring it to light.
Don't live in the false illusion that these are only isolated incidents!!
Edgar
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Post by Brick on Oct 3, 2007 10:42:37 GMT -5
Don't live in the false illusion that these are only isolated incidents!! But that is what they are. Isolated incidences. The fact that we are all human and have the same weaknesses and struggles with the flesh doesn't mean that it is a grand conspiracy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2007 14:07:12 GMT -5
Don't live in the false illusion that these are only isolated incidents!! But that is what they are. Isolated incidences. The fact that we are all human and have the same weaknesses and struggles with the flesh doesn't mean that it is a grand conspiracy. Check out the other thread on the Manitoba case -- and remember that for every case that "hits the fan", there are at least 10 than get swept under the rug -- and 10 more that are never even noticed. Don't be so naive as to believe that these recent cases are isolated or unique in 2x2 history. It is my experience that very very few female exes don't have a story to tell.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2007 15:22:19 GMT -5
Edgar, You say "one of the reasons why there is the amount of corruption as there is in YOUR group......": Its not MY group Edgar. Again you read things you want to read, and ignore what you dont want to read. If all these scandles,corruption and evil existed over the 40 years you thought this was the way to heaven, then your powers of perception and observation were pretty limited. Now you see all the woods and no trees. And where did you get your 10 X 10 theory. Based on what facts? ?
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 3, 2007 16:42:46 GMT -5
casper and brick...NO DOUBT to both of you. Sheesh. Huff. (and anything else like that.) yeah, I love the YOUR group stuff...conveniently forgetting that none of us are a GROUP,but only share a set of basic beliefs. We've been over and over and OVER the fact that there are SCUM EVERYWHERE and NO ONE is defending the SCUM! Oh well. Edgar will be Edgar I guess. M. funny though the flack that GIT takes...and then there's Edgar...not nearly as much. SHEEESHHHHHHHHHHHhhh. In a handbasket to be SURE! M.
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Post by to wtbwg on Oct 3, 2007 19:43:28 GMT -5
That's your cue to step up and defend him. That's what you do, isn't it? Defend those that take flack?
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 3, 2007 20:03:51 GMT -5
Nope. defend the people I believe are correct AND are the underdog. Ever so sorry to have confused you. OH, by the way, *GASP* are you baiting me? Well...... I can't believe you would EVER! eh, never mind. not in the mood tonight. Hit me with yer best shot, as the song says.
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Post by keyword on Oct 3, 2007 21:58:08 GMT -5
defend the people I believe are correct keyword: believe
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2007 4:20:21 GMT -5
Regarding my estimates on sexual abuse frequency in the 2x2 group.
One of things I am ashamed of regarding my time in the work, is the indifference I had then to the enormous volume of workers and friends that just 'vanished' in the process of a few years. I swallowed the official explanation that they had just 'lost out' -- 'got involved in the world' -- 'were unwilling for truth' ... 'were unwilling for sacrifice' .... etc. etc. etc.. My position at that time was simply 'to bad for them'
There is an extreme aversion in the 2x2 culture to investigation of the reasons why people leave --- anything more than accepting the official explanation of what has happened is regarded as mistrust in the workers -- and this is the same as mistrust in God!!!
Since my exit my position has been to try and contact as many as possible of the 100s and 100s of folks (especially workers) that have vanished from the 2x2 scene. My experience is that there is a can of worms in 95% of these stories of the vanished. Sexual abuse comes up in MANY of the stories.
Even now when I live on the other side of the world from the major populations of 2x2ers, I am often amazed at how easy it is to find out the story behind the different peoples exit from the scene. I folks just had the courage to check things out for themselves I am quite convinced that few would still trust the ugly system.
Anyone that has to courage to dig even just slightly bellow the surface will find the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2007 5:00:58 GMT -5
It doesnt take courage to do what you do Edgar.
I dont have to prove my courage, been there, done that, got medals that tell that tale.
100 and 100's? What, under a thousand. Out of 24 plus million.
Still good odds Edgar.
If you look for dirt, no doubt you will find some. No one is perfect, we are all prone of sin and fail.
You obvioulsy think that you have the right to judge and pass judgement.
I personaly consider you a bitter and biased person.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2007 6:10:58 GMT -5
Casper, you seem to find the odds acceptable as they are -- Seeing that I don't have workers mixing amongst my children, they are not a big worry to me personally either.
However I find it difficult to understand the complete lack of concern in your post for the 'few' that are obviously vulnerable --that obviously are a target -- and the unidentified offenders that obviously are at large, simply on a promise to seniors workers that "I won't do it again"
I also find it hard to understand your attitude of acceptance for a few casualty's now and then, your clear efforts to minimize the scope, your scorn for any objective investigation, and biting condemnation for ordinary suspicion in the interests of the vulnerable --- This attitude is what keeps the doors of opportunity wide open for continued abuse.
Actually in the recent Manitoba case (information is still trickling in) my horror is not so much against the person involved, as it is against the completely despicable way that leadership has shown total disregard for the dangers that people close to me have been left exposed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2007 6:36:58 GMT -5
You are so wrong Edgar.
I find it very strange that a person who professed for over 40 years, was a worker for 16 years, suddenly becomes the saviour of all when he gets kicked out.
You stand condemned if what you now say is, and has been for many many years, standard church practice.
If you were blind for 40 years, then pray for forgiveness each wakeing hours for the lack of courage and perception that you now say you have truck loads of.
If workers are peodiphiles, and their actions are sactioned by head workers, then I am shocked and appauled.
As I said in a previous post, one is one too many.
It is a pity you were not so vigalent in those 40 years.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2007 7:04:27 GMT -5
You are so wrong Edgar. I find it very strange that a person who professed for over 40 years, was a worker for 16 years, suddenly becomes the saviour of all when he gets kicked out. You stand condemned if what you now say is, and has been for many many years, standard church practice. If you were blind for 40 years, then pray for forgiveness each wakeing hours for the lack of courage and perception that you now say you have truck loads of. If workers are peodiphiles, and their actions are sactioned by head workers, then I am shocked and appauled. As I said in a previous post, one is one too many. It is a pity you were not so vigalent in those 40 years. Dean, I don't justify the fact that during my time in the work, I followed the policy to accept the position senior workers had at face value. I realize that it kept me in a completely unreal world of deception -- and that this attitude was upheld at the expence of many many innocent victims of the system. I am not proud of it --- Sorry--- I do my best to make up for it now in the few ways that I can! I agree, it is a pity that it took me so long to figure it out. I thank God daily for his mercy in granting us deliverance.
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Post by rational on Oct 4, 2007 7:40:09 GMT -5
Check out the other thread on the Manitoba case -- and remember that for every case that "hits the fan", there are at least 10 than get swept under the rug -- and 10 more that are never even noticed. Do you have anything to back up this assertion of a 20 to 1 exposure ratio? Is there any evidence to show that this is more common within the 2X2s than it is in other organizations? When you say they have a story to tell should we assume that that story is one of sexual abuse by members of the 2X2 group? Just to be clear - is your claim that there is more sexual abuse in the 2X2 group by the workers or that there is more sexual abuse in families who are in the 2X2 group. The question is when does this become a 2X2 issue and when is it just a Child Protective Services issue. I mean, if Mary and Joseph, members of the 2x2 group, are abusing their daughter, Sunflower, is that a case of 2x2 abuse?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2007 8:12:10 GMT -5
Check out the other thread on the Manitoba case -- and remember that for every case that "hits the fan", there are at least 10 than get swept under the rug -- and 10 more that are never even noticed. Do you have anything to back up this assertion of a 20 to 1 exposure ratio? Is there any evidence to show that this is more common within the 2X2s than it is in other organizations? When you say they have a story to tell should we assume that that story is one of sexual abuse by members of the 2X2 group? Just to be clear - is your claim that there is more sexual abuse in the 2X2 group by the workers or that there is more sexual abuse in families who are in the 2X2 group. The question is when does this become a 2X2 issue and when is it just a Child Protective Services issue. I mean, if Mary and Joseph, members of the 2x2 group, are abusing their daughter, Sunflower, is that a case of 2x2 abuse? Regarding the statement that for every 1 sexual abuse case that hits the news there are 10 that are swept under the rug -- and 10 more that are never reported at all. I really know of very few highly publicized sex abuse cases in 2x2 circles -- they didn't exist when I was in the work. Now I am aware of about 7 cases world wide taken to court the last few years -- but it isn't hard for me to count up 20 or 30 cases that have been recounted in by the person themselves where they feel the issue was never dealt with. ----- although I likely am aware of most of the high profile cases, I don't have much contact with friends in a large part of the world so I can assume that the problem is no less in other fields. I understand from a few ex-workers from South America that the problem is enormous there. In general it is regarded in our society that only 5% of sex crimes ever reach the attention of the police.
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Post by rational on Oct 4, 2007 10:50:08 GMT -5
I really know of very few highly publicized sex abuse cases in 2x2 circles -- they didn't exist when I was in the work. Now I am aware of about 7 cases world wide taken to court the last few years -- but it isn't hard for me to count up 20 or 30 cases that have been recounted in by the person themselves where they feel the issue was never dealt with. When you are talking about sexual abuse cases do you mean any case where some person involved in the case is a member of the 2x2s or do you mean a case where a worker has been involved? You mentioned that you doubted that any female that was an ex 2x2 member would have a tale to tell. Did you mean was abused by a worker or was in an abusive family? Just trying to get a handle on what you are claiming.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2007 13:57:15 GMT -5
I said that many (probably most) of the female exes I have contact with remember sexual abuse of widely different degrees(from minor to major) within the fellowship (both workers and friends) when they were still part of it. I doubt if their experience is different than many of other proffessing girls -- The difference is simply that being now on the 'outside', they are not under the same press to repress all critical thinking of friends and workers.
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