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Post by considering truth on Apr 17, 2008 18:23:38 GMT -5
" and when they had brought their boats to land, they left all and followed him."
What does "leaving all" entail?
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Post by aileen on Apr 18, 2008 5:37:05 GMT -5
They should have laptops and mobile phones.
Leaving all didn't mean leaving everything. If it did they would have been naked? And it doesn't mean leaving everyone. Later they were in the house of Peter and his brother, where Peters wifes mother was sick. Peter and bro clearly had a wife, family, house etc And it doesn't mean leaving everywhere: If they left one place, they'd soon be in another place, its not possible to leave everywhere.
They might have left their boats. Thats about the only thing they didn't have after the "left all".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2008 6:22:42 GMT -5
Basically they put everything to one side, temporarily, to enable them to go after Jesus.
Not very different from a man leaving all behind to go and attend a football match. Bad analogy, but you get the point !
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Post by Brick on Apr 18, 2008 6:44:51 GMT -5
I absolutely agree that there are essential things that they must have, and communication devices are at the top of the list. So mobile phones and laptops are in. In my area, they also have cars. In fact, they have more cars than they know what to do with. Of course, none of the vehicles are registered in their name, which sort of irks me that they would pretend to have nothing, yet have quite a bit. It seems a bit dishonest to me. If I gave you a car, you would say, "It is my car." If I gave a car to workers, they would say, "It is your car. I'm just using it." Let's cut the BS, pleeze! I think it's time for the poor, itinerant minister to step into the twenty first century with honesty.
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GoBlue
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Post by GoBlue on Apr 18, 2008 9:42:22 GMT -5
GPS as well. I asked a worker recently if they needed directions to their next stop on the special mtg rounds, and they declined. They had a GPS unit! That should eliminate some friction between companions. I need one of those - then I could blame my getting lost on the machine, not on my clumsy reading of the directions or the map. I absolutely agree that there are essential things that they must have, and communication devices are at the top of the list. So mobile phones and laptops are in. In my area, they also have cars. In fact, they have more cars than they know what to do with. Of course, none of the vehicles are registered in their name, which sort of irks me that they would pretend to have nothing, yet have quite a bit. It seems a bit dishonest to me. If I gave you a car, you would say, "It is my car." If I gave a car to workers, they would say, "It is your car. I'm just using it." Let's cut the BS, pleeze! I think it's time for the poor, itinerant minister to step into the twenty first century with honesty.
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Post by Brick on Apr 18, 2008 9:45:14 GMT -5
AND we'd have an answer that would shut up our wives when they keep asking, "WHY DON'T YOU JUST STOP AND ASK DIRECTIONS!?!?"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2008 13:41:31 GMT -5
GPS ? I thought they were guided by the Holy Spirit wherever it led them ?
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Post by Brick on Apr 18, 2008 16:52:45 GMT -5
Ooooh. Good one, ram!
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Post by Poor and homeless on Apr 18, 2008 20:58:25 GMT -5
Should workers not be following Jesus by leaving their possessions?
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Post by shutter upper on Apr 18, 2008 22:31:40 GMT -5
AND we'd have an answer that would shut up our wives when they keep asking, "WHY DON'T YOU JUST STOP AND ASK DIRECTIONS!?!?" Another wife shutter upper! Better than a wofe beater, but only just.
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Post by degem on Apr 21, 2008 11:24:52 GMT -5
I see no problem with the workers having laptops and mobile phones. Great way to communicate
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Post by dont have on Apr 21, 2008 12:07:36 GMT -5
Workers lose their credibility when they begin to not conform to the rules or scripture interpretation what the first workers established as part of the WAY.
Workers have always given up everything except a change or two of clothing, a small suitcase a bible and hymn book and a few small personal writing materials.
In later years these ideas seem to have gone out of fashion with workers.
What was good then should be good now. Shouldn't it?
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Post by lute1812 on Apr 21, 2008 12:21:05 GMT -5
I see no problem with the workers having laptops and mobile phones. Great way to communicate No problem with workers with Laptops. Some of us others prefer desktop models, unless we are on the run. Right GEM? I would think it's invaluable for letter writing, but it makes the letter feel somewhat less personal for the receiver (from my position). I remember years ago, when inside, corresponding with over a hundred, and those handwritten letters included the writters' personalities. Letters from Arnold Brown and Eldon Tenniswood demanded a tie and straight back chair to read. Whereas, so many other like Carl Williams, Sandra Balko, Karen Tenniswood, ... one could languish lounging in the grass reading. Now, if the Workers carted about 'PRINTERS' ... Lute1812
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Post by degem on Apr 21, 2008 12:31:13 GMT -5
Yes Lute someone of us do prefer to the desktop models. I have only recently begun naviagating around with a laptop which is not mine. I agree Lute that there is something more personal about a letter from another person. I still have the letters that I received from Douglas Craig when he was in the work so many years ago. A very precious possession to me! I used to write alot more letters than I do now. Sometimes my excuse is that I don't have the time when actually that is a poor excuse for me. I used to try to write one letter a day but soon quit that. Perhaps it is time for me to start writing letters again. I miss the responses I get from those letters. Gem
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forest
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Post by forest on Apr 21, 2008 14:56:00 GMT -5
of course they need cell phones and laptops ;D They have a lot to coordinate. Some years ago one of the more modern workers came on visit to me and he was busy with sending emails and telefax to 30 or 40 different receivers to all directions around. How hard must it be now some years later? There must be more other modern equipment like gps and so more... I wouldn't wonder if they use this also. To find the best direction and the best way from one event to the next .... but to find the truth nobody needs gps!
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Post by ex-teenager on Apr 24, 2008 16:53:21 GMT -5
of course they need cell phones and laptops ;D They have a lot to coordinate. Some years ago one of the more modern workers came on visit to me and he was busy with sending emails and telefax to 30 or 40 different receivers to all directions around. How hard must it be now some years later? There must be more other modern equipment like gps and so more... I wouldn't wonder if they use this also. To find the best direction and the best way from one event to the next .... but to find the truth nobody needs gps! easy to know who he was?
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Post by Who on Apr 25, 2008 9:42:59 GMT -5
Who is he?
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Post by Inappropriate on Apr 25, 2008 13:59:09 GMT -5
It is inappropriate for workers to own anything of high monetary value because they claim to "go out as Jesus sent his disciples, leaving all." There is great emphasis placed on the leaving "all". Is it not then out of order to renage on this premise? What do you think?
While poor people exist in the modern world, is it not appropriate that workers also be poor?
Workers claim not to be like other churches, so what is the difference if they can own expensive equipment?
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forest
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Post by forest on May 1, 2008 6:32:43 GMT -5
@ Inappropriate It means theory is different to reality. Do we not know same from other religions? So what has it to tell You?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 3, 2008 2:22:57 GMT -5
" and when they had brought their boats to land, they left all and followed him." What does "leaving all" entail? What does this out-of-context quote have to do with the question in the subject line?
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Post by Everything on May 4, 2008 11:27:54 GMT -5
Everything!
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Post by aileen on May 4, 2008 15:44:41 GMT -5
"leaving all".
Some people seem to think means having nothing forever.
"Leaving" means at a single time, dispensing of the described stuff.
"all" means just that. Savings, car, assets, laptop, camera, money, etc. All except a few basic clothes.
BUT At some later time gaining (by gift or whatever) some of those things back again, like being given a laptop, does NOT mean the person did not "leave all".
There's no rule against a worker having assets, provided they did not take those assets into the work with them. Acquiring them after joining is OK.
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Post by bluejay on May 4, 2008 16:52:33 GMT -5
"leaving all". Some people seem to think means having nothing forever. "Leaving" means at a single time, dispensing of the described stuff. "all" means just that. Savings, car, assets, laptop, camera, money, etc. All except a few basic clothes. BUT At some later time gaining (by gift or whatever) some of those things back again, like being given a laptop, does NOT mean the person did not "leave all". There's no rule against a worker having assets, provided they did not take those assets into the work with them. Acquiring them after joining is OK. I have to strongly disagree with your last paragraph aileen, for a couple of reasons. They present themselves as the modern extension of the New Testament Church ... where the ministers follow the instructions given by Jesus in Matthew 10. That is 50% of their core belief - the other 50% being the church in the home. If you deviate even a little bit from that, it makes them just like all other Christian ministries. I know of "worldly" missionaries who live a much simpler life than the workers presently do, and suffer much more hardship in spreading the Gospel. Never mind the uproar it would cause if the workers began to amass a fortune from the 'free will offerings' given by the friends. The 'friends' in Alberta were very offended (understatement) when they discovered their overseer was the holder of hidden assets. The workers are quick to condemn Christian ministers as being hirelings because they haven't left all, and do have assets. To then accept "gifts" of cars, mobile phones, laptops, credit cards, gas cards, etc. just seems hypocritical to me. That certainly isn't "leaving all". The sad thing is I believe that the very earliest of workers were sincerely honest in how they approached the ministry. They did leave all, and by all accounts led a life of uncertainty (as far as creature comforts were concerned). I have great respect for those who would make such a sacrifice. However the reality is that the workers today lack nothing.
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Post by eurobrit on May 4, 2008 17:09:25 GMT -5
Overseer owning private assets etc...............
is there history of this becoming common knowledge and the reaction of friends when they knew??
Credit cards? One of the best purposes/reasons/excuses is to reduce the need to carry cash and the potentially safer means of transmitting / receiving cash abroad. Nothing wrong with that in principle
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Post by SILLY on May 4, 2008 17:12:01 GMT -5
"leaving all". Some people seem to think means having nothing forever. "Leaving" means at a single time, dispensing of the described stuff. "all" means just that. Savings, car, assets, laptop, camera, money, etc. All except a few basic clothes. BUT At some later time gaining (by gift or whatever) some of those things back again, like being given a laptop, does NOT mean the person did not "leave all". There's no rule against a worker having assets, provided they did not take those assets into the work with them. Acquiring them after joining is OK. This account sounds exactly right. Sounds like airport security. LEAVE ALL, WALK THROUGH, GET IT BACK ON THE OTHER SIDE! ;D
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Post by bluejay on May 4, 2008 17:37:20 GMT -5
Overseer owning private assets etc............... is there history of this becoming common knowledge and the reaction of friends when they knew?? Credit cards? One of the best purposes/reasons/excuses is to reduce the need to carry cash and the potentially safer means of transmitting / receiving cash abroad. Nothing wrong with that in principle If you'd like to read about the situation in Alberta, the best way to access the information is to use the VOT website. www.veteransoftruth.com You could use the search terms 'Alberta' or 'incorporation', and that should lead you to the history. I should warn you though -- there's lots of reading ahead for you. I agree with you that carrying a credit card is safer than carrying cash. Having a credit card with a $20,000 limit for your use, however, with someone else paying the bill certainly can't be considered "leaving all". "Worldly" ministers are held accountable for all expenditures. The workers don't have such a system of checks and balances in place. I'd just like to add this. I believe the use of computers, cell phones and other modern stuff can be very helpful in spreading the Gospel. I know it costs money to be in ministry, and I don't begrudge the workers for what they're given. I also know the lifestyle of a worker is tough in many ways, and I certainly wouldn't be able to live as they do. My objection has always been the hypocrisy between what they present their ministry to be, and what it actually has evolved to become.
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Post by ooT on May 4, 2008 18:40:08 GMT -5
The thing is... you can go to many parts of the world and find the present-day ministry operating exactly as it is presented. Why not in the US, Canada and European countries? Different factors enter in. In these places there is a large supportive congregation; there are "sheep" to feed; would it be a good thing if people who have plenty and more were associated with ministers who are penniless? (I understand that missions in other denominations are sometimes way low of funds, but I don't think that is a major problem for F&W).
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Post by aileen on May 5, 2008 13:53:10 GMT -5
"I have to strongly disagree with your last paragraph aileen, for a couple of reasons. "
We are all entitled to opnions. None of our opinions (including mine) impact on the truth of a situation. Disagreeing with me doesn't change what is.
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