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Post by holysetapartforgod on Aug 27, 2007 0:04:42 GMT -5
I was part of "The Truth" until I was about 25. At about 26, I quit going to meetings for good, and joined a "wordly" Christian church. It was there that I feel I met God for the very first time in my life. I remember understanding grace for the first time and let me tell you, the world looks TOTALLY different through the eyes of grace as opposed to the eyes of works! Colors are brighter, nature is more beautiful, God is absolutely incredible!
But even after I learned about Grace, I still needed to wade through all my beliefs about God and replace with the real truth what wasn't true - those things that I was taught in the Midwest where legalism had a very strong hold. I'm sure there are many others who can understand what I've been going through - having to question every belief I've ever had to see if it's the truth. It can either cause you to turn away from God or, as a result of searching for the truth for yourself, make you stronger. I thank God it's made me stronger.
One of the beliefs I held until recently when I was forced to challenge it as a result of a sermon my pastor gave was whether one, once saved, was always saved Until I'd met God "for real," I sometimes feared "The Rapture." I remember waking up in the middle of the night and fearing that Jesus had come back and taken my parents, but not me. I would lay awake and worry for hours, waiting for the morning when I could call them to find out. It was AWFUL! And it was a result of the teaching that there was always the possibility that I could lose my salvation at any time. What a terrible way to live!
So, I want to share what I know to be the truth now about salvation for anyone else who may have similar fears about salvation.
Remember the story of the Prodigal Son? He'd had EVERYTHING he could have ever needed under the protection of his father's roof, but he chose to leave it thinking there was something better out in the world. However, after he'd had a taste of what the world offered, he went running back to his father's house, and he was received with joy. THAT is a perfect picture of salvation!
We have EVERYTHING we could EVER want or need in God. Once we have accepted him as our Lord & Saviour, he gives us the Holy Spirit as a GUARANTEE of our salvation (Eph 1:13-14 Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.) and keeps us from falling (Jude 24: To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen)
However - just like the prodigal son, we can choose to walk away from it. But here's what I've come to understand. Those who have TRULY tasted of God's goodness, those who have TRULY met him, those who have TRULY had a relationship with him, will never stray forever. And when (not if) they come back, God will still be holding out salvation to them and welcoming them home.
What about all the verses that warn about falling away and talk about those who will fall away in the last days? I now believe those are the people who "have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof." (2 Timothy 3)
Thank you Lord for choosing to give Salvation to me of all people...and for FREE!!! That is true love.
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Post by imconfused on Nov 23, 2007 1:55:38 GMT -5
What church do you attend now?
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Post by Brick on Nov 23, 2007 15:37:05 GMT -5
The parable of the prodigal son tells a lot, and opens some interesting questions. What if the prodigal son had been so ashamed of what he had become that he never went back? What if he felt that the father would never accept him? Remember that he only asked to be as one of the servants, not as a member of the household. I think your illustration is a beautiful picture of God's love for us. Even though we lose our way at times, if we can just make it back to his household, there is acceptance. And like the father of the prodigal, what he offers us is SO much more and better than we can even conceive of asking. Put yourself in the position of that son, returning home full of shame, emptied of dreams and ambitions. All that he had ever wanted turned into nothing. A waste. He wasted the father's blessing and now he just wants the shelter and nourishment that his father's servants have. That is a pretty low place to be coming from. I'm not sure I would have the courage to even ask. I'm glad for this illustration that Jesus provided for our edification and to help us to understand the nature of God's love.
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Post by ranman77007 on Nov 23, 2007 16:03:33 GMT -5
always tryin to talk the prodigal brother back in the house, then when the prodigal comes back, the other brother does a little wastin of his own, dont he? says he what? would not go in?
meanwhile daddy is just happy that they are both there, but their minds are all about who is and aint and will go and wont go, and yet they are both there the whole time. the first one is starvin, the other one gets mad cause he gets one good meal, after who knows how long of eatin that other crap.
i tell ya, like speed racer and racer ex..
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Post by pianoman on Jul 9, 2008 12:51:38 GMT -5
I think that a lot of people that believe the "once saved, always saved" theory have a distorted view of the concept. I am going to go off of one man that believed this theory, and tell you what he said. He told me that I could go to bed and worry about getting "unsaved" (for lack of better term?), but he didn't believe that could happen, and I agree. That would indicate that losing out isn't a conscious decision, but just a flash in the pan thing, that hits people that are unsuspecting. Of course that is total nonsense, but he further stated that he felt that he could go rob a bank and if he were killed during his hold up attempt, he would still be saved. OK, I mentally put on the brakes and made a mild comment that I couldn't accept that, to this man. While Grace that gives us salvation is a gift and there are works involved, we know that we can not do anything that will give us salvation, or the "gift " part is gone. I am not going to attempt to explain this, as I am weak in the concept, but I am sure that as we choose to walk with God, we can choose to walk AWAY from God. I just felt that this might help those on both sides to see from a different perspective, Maybe??
Open minds and receptive hearts will always provide the best condition to gain better insight (of course the Lord must be in charge totally) The most important thing is to keep God first and the rest will be taken care of. Peace to all..............Pianoman
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theophilia
New Member
God loved me enough to meet me where I was, but too much to leave me there
Posts: 43
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Post by theophilia on Aug 25, 2008 12:34:23 GMT -5
Dear All, This is a quote from the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith, that for me, clarified the issue immensely, as what it meant by 'eternal security', which I don't like as terminology, and much prefer "Perseverence of the Saints" -- it's not that God will save you no matter what; it's that He'll keep you persevering to the end. read: For further reading: www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/In Christ, Theophilia
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Post by irvinegrey on Aug 25, 2008 15:32:34 GMT -5
Do I believe in the persererance of the saints? Yes I do because it is clearly taught in the Bible. If we restrict ourselves to Romans, justification as outlined by Paul is a once and for all work of grace. If we look at Hebrews we find the same certainty. However, we must take care that we do not argue this important doctrine as a licence to live as we please.
The New Testament makes a clear distinction between those who profess Christ and whose lives do not manifest the fruit of the Spirit and those who are His Children and their lives manifest the grace and love of God.
If we have any doubt as to how a child of God should live and the efficacy of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ then we should read entirely 1 John and this should illuminate us.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 25, 2008 19:05:55 GMT -5
What would this be referring to?
"and overthrow the faith of some (2 Ti 2:18)".
Interestingly, mentioned not too far after this verse:
"for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (2 Ti 1:12b)".
But what would an 'overthrow' of one's faith be?
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Post by ronhall on Sept 3, 2008 7:14:11 GMT -5
It seems those in the F&W put a different meaning on the concept of "once saved, always saved."
We tend to see this as a destiny. Those in other religions see it as an expression of God's love for the individual.
I believe a person can (and should) be able to see it both ways. However it wouldn't set well to make too much of an issue of equating it to God's love in a fellowship meeting. Just saying the words "once saved, always saved" with a positive connotation in a meeting would likely alienate yourself from the hard core.
Back to the Parable of the Prodigal Son, I've often wondered how the story would be told if he had never come to the 'end of himself'. I see that some believe, as noted in a previous post, that God will ensure that this would occur.
So then, applying this to those who have left the F&W fellowship, all would eventually find themselves 'at the end of themselves' and desire desperately to return with a more humble attitude. Is this happening?
Or is it as Brick mentioned above, that some never are able to put down their pride, embarrassment, or whatever.
Another example in the Bible is the story of Lot. He chose ease of living in Sodom, was eventually rescued, but never did go back to herding cattle with Abraham. Yet in Hebrews 11 he is described as "Just Lot". Where does that take this "once saved, always saved" discussion?
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Sept 3, 2008 23:47:17 GMT -5
Different things were expected of believers at different times.
We are under the "dispensation of grace" (yes those words are in the bible).
Now believers are "sealed unto the day of redemption"
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Post by selah on Sept 4, 2008 8:50:28 GMT -5
Thank you holysetapartforgod for starting this thread. I loved your post...and amen to yours learnedaboutgrace. What a refreshing thread! Enjoyed reading everyone's comments, especially since they've been shared in such a great way! Y'all (no, I'm Canadian helped me get a great start this morning! Blessings, Linda
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Post by ddwalker700 on Oct 11, 2008 0:22:57 GMT -5
I don't believe that salvation can be lost. If it could that would mean that our salvation depends partly upon our behavior. It does not. It is entirely a free gift from God. We do not obtain salvation by our behavior, and we cannot lose it by our behavior. God gives the gift. We can accept it or refuse it. If we accept it, He will not take it away. If one doesn't believe in eternal security there can be no blessed assurance. Dave
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msew
Junior Member
Posts: 127
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Post by msew on Oct 11, 2008 16:32:18 GMT -5
Thank you Dave! Of course it is impossible for those who believe that their salvation rests in some part on their effort/faithfulness/goodness to understand eternal security. For those who know and believe by the gift of faith that the God who saved them is the God who keeps them because He has given them to His Son forever, then eternal security is not a presumption but a God authored promise.
It is impossible too to give God ALL the glory for salvation unless our faith is in Christ alone and what He has done for His elect and chosen people.
It's human nature to disbelieve the amazing grace of God!
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Post by ddwalker700 on Oct 12, 2008 4:26:03 GMT -5
Thank you msew! I appreciated so much the clear concise way that you expressed this marvelous truth.
Dave
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ann
Senior Member
Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
Posts: 267
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Post by ann on Oct 12, 2008 14:18:47 GMT -5
Yes
God's promises are never broken. Through God's grace and his promises. He never breaks a promise of His offered gift to us. It is each person's decision whether to accept or not. His grief is great when we turn our back.
One thing I ask myself is - do I believe man or God - God always wins!
I felt I had to add my feelings to this thread even though others expressed it much better than I can.
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msew
Junior Member
Posts: 127
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Post by msew on Oct 12, 2008 17:46:36 GMT -5
Ann,
Yes I agree. I love being reminded of the grace and love of God for His people through Jesus and what He has done.
"There is no greater security then to be among those whom God has given to His Son. The elect will all come to Him for they have been given to the Son by the Father that they should receive eternal life. They are not brought to Him to see how they will respond to the ‘offer’ of salvation, nor are they brought to Him only to have them reject Him, but to be given eternal life for they are the Father’s! All those whom the Father has given to His Son He in turn gives eternal life to and thus these shall never perish."
I also love the picture of the Trinity in salvation.
"The Father elected His people unto righteousness, the Holy Spirit regenerates those people to receive that righteousness and Christ has actually produced that righteousness which is imputed to them."
I wonder how people can assume anything they do gives them a right to eternal life. Or that they in any way can improve on what Jesus Christ has done on the behalf of God's chosen people.
Christ’s death—His work of atonement—was the means by which those whom God called to salvation would receive eternal life: "And for this cause He is the Mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death...they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb. 9:15; Col. 1:20-22).
The great work of redemption for God's people was accomplished by the cross. It is impossible for any who are true believers in God's Gospel of Grace to entertain one thought of adding to their gift of salvation otherwise it is not by grace but by works.
Of course living the Christian life after being saved means adding to....
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you Lord for choosing to give Salvation to me of all people...and for FREE!!! That is true love.
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ann
Senior Member
Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
Posts: 267
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Post by ann on Oct 12, 2008 23:27:55 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by tluxon on Oct 16, 2008 19:17:04 GMT -5
I believe the Bible makes it quite clear that anyone who tries to attain salvation by their own efforts diminishes Christ's covering atonement and actually robs God of glory. When God looks at me is he going to see how closely I made myself look like Christ or is going to see Christ instead of me?
Now that doesn't mean these hard working people aren't going to spend eternity with God - but some are going to be very surprised when they find that heaven is filled with people who don't "deserve" to be there. God is most glorified by those who need Him most.
I believe God gives us free will and this temporal life to help us see who our "father" is. We can try to prove it our way, which is an act of pride, or we can let God do it His way, which is an expression of humility.
As far as I can tell, there is nothing about our pride or our efforts to be holy that can honor or glorify God.
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Post by MsMarie on Dec 2, 2008 2:37:25 GMT -5
I very much agree with what has been written in this thread. I thought I would pass on the following reflection:
Galatians 3:3 "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"
Christians will always drift back toward a legalistic view of salvation. It starts subtly: our spiritual fervour, or devotion, or ministry involvement, or consistency, or new-found obedience really are signs of our Christian vitality. Before long, however, we begin to think of them more and more as the cause of our vitality.
Being right with God slowly drifts from grace alone to grace plus achieving this standard. At this point, Paul tells us we have created a false gospel, a gospel of law rather than grace. The same grace that began our relationship with Jesus is what keeps us in that relationship.
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lars
New Member
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Post by lars on Dec 2, 2008 13:29:16 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly agree with eternal security, but I believe an honest look at the epistles of Paul indicate that "belief" in itself is not enough, that is, simply intellectual assent that Jesus is the Son of God. One must repent and make him Lord as well as Savior. Now, I am not the judge and I am certain Jesus will be more merciful than any human judge. Yet, there are strong warnings against simply believing without action, without repentance, without some fruit being borne as evidence of salvation. It may be better to err on the side of caution if there is any doubt. Joy, yes, but remember the Lord said we would have tribulation and trouble in this world...and, that we would be persecuted. If we are not experiencing these things, then it may be time to take a serious look at our works, even though we certainly are not going to earn our way into heaven. People may be deceiving themselves. Of course, anyone even really concerned about the matter, who truly believes in Jesus must be saved otherwise they would not care. But we must remember, every single time judgment is mentioned in the New Testament it is in connection with our works. The soul that believes in Jesus and trusts in Him will never die, but while we have this very short time on earth, let us do as much good as we can, to as many people as we can, as long as we ever can, as John Wesley said, I believe. (Now Wesley may have believed that salvation could be lost, but it is not about Wesley, it is about Jesus!) So storing up treasure in heaven is what we must do, and that is reward based upon our obedience to the teachings of Jesus...a reward that will never fade away. There can be nothing more important, so let us get to work!!
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Post by MsMarie on Dec 3, 2008 3:17:26 GMT -5
Some are to receive stripes we are told but still be accepted in heaven. It makes sense that those who put their whole hearts and human efforts into a godly life will deserve more reward than those who gave less. I do agree it is best to use our time wisely and put the most we can into our spiritual lives. Jesus said his sheep would never perish - we know they wander but our Shepherd brings them back.
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Post by Annan on Dec 5, 2008 22:59:05 GMT -5
My parents never seemed to buy into the belief that anyone was saved in the respect that they were signed, sealed, and delivered. My father always talked of hoping to go to heaven. It seems there were no assurances.
I grew up thinking the church didn't believe in being saved. It almost seemed my parents lived in constant, nail biting terror of meeting their maker.
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Post by hebrew12andverse23 on Jan 3, 2009 1:08:22 GMT -5
II Peter Ch. 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are agin entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
1 John ch. 5
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Behavior is important in the eyes of the Lord. John said to love you brother. Whosoever that says he loves God, but doesn't love his brother is a liar. He also says to help your needy brother. Help is a form of behavior. Worshipping idols is behavior. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love: even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" (John 15:10). Everything we say and do is behavior. If one loved his brother as it is commanded, then he would not mistreat him or curse him. That would prove that he doesn't love him and therefore the love of the Father is not in him. Behavior matters.
As for living in fear because of the doctrine that you can loose your salvation at anytime, here is comfort.
1 John Ch. 3
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Ch. 4
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.
I recommend reading the entire epistle of 1 John because separated verses can be easily twisted, but the epistle must be looked at in context of the revelation John is speaking.
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Post by geometricjeff on Jan 6, 2009 0:57:46 GMT -5
holysetaparatforgod wrote this in the original post for this topic: "Those who have TRULY tasted of God's goodness, those who have TRULY met him, those who have TRULY had a relationship with him, will never stray forever. And when (not if) they come back, God will still be holding out salvation to them and welcoming them home."
How do you know whether you have TRULY done all those things? How do you know whether or not you are one of those who fools the rest of us - even fool yourself? How do you know whether your definition of "TRULY" matches God's?
I don't say this to upset scrupulous readers. But I don't think we should have an erroneous view of ourselves, and God's work.
God made us in His image and likeness. More specifically, of all earthly creatures, He made us to share in His trait of free will. I can choose to follow God. I can then later on choose to reject Him. If I do that, I lose my salvation - if I reject God, God won't force me into heaven.
Some may say something like this: "Well, you were then never really saved in the first place - you/we mistakenly *thought* you were saved." To that, I refer you to the parable of the Prodigal Son that holysetapartforgod used: The son really *was* saved (i.e., lived with his father); then, the son really *did* lose his salvation (i.e., leave his father's house); finally, the son really did return to salvation from his father (i.e., come back to his father's house). Isn't it possible that such a son could have been obstinate, and died in the famine while tending the swine? Then, he would have died oustide his father's house - he would have gone from a situation of being saved (living in his father's house) to losing his salvation (dieing outside his father's house).
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Post by hebrew12andverse23 on Jan 6, 2009 3:24:24 GMT -5
It's possible to where one never falls away. Not because one chooses, but because one cannot sin against God. A man born of God does not sin. A man born of God cannot sin(1 John). Yet the Bible still says that one who may leave righteousness. Peter is talking about someone who is righteous, one who is saved. The possibilities is either that person will come back or not. That soul will not go to hell if that person comes back to God and his righteous. If he don't(remember, he's known righteousness), then he will be worse off. Either way, they have known righteousness. It gets kind of complicated. One may be saved, but he still can leave God. Or, one may be TOO saved, that is, born of God to where he CANNOT leave.
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Post by Annan on Jan 6, 2009 13:27:35 GMT -5
What does it mean then to "work out your own salvation"?
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Post by hebrew12andverse23 on Jan 6, 2009 23:35:00 GMT -5
Phillippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
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Pink
Senior Member
Posts: 411
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Post by Pink on Jan 9, 2009 19:55:14 GMT -5
What does it mean then to "work out your own salvation"? For me, it means the only thing I can do for my salvation is to bring my sin before God. And believe me, that takes a lotta work.
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