|
Post by pianoman on Dec 25, 2008 19:25:23 GMT -5
Ariandgabe, Just as Rational can not describe blue to me if I had never had sight, you can not describe your faith in God to him as he may not have Spiritual sight.
I admire you for keeping up with him, as when we spoke, I think that he is intelligent, but has a reason for being here. He is a dear fellow, and you, my dear friend, are doing so wonderfully, in the tone of your posts. I hope all notice the change in you as I have.
I think that this example is all we need to see how debate can be clean and unmarred by insults.
My Kudos to both Rational and Ariangabe. Love and Peace of God, Pianoman
|
|
|
Post by rational on Dec 27, 2008 2:31:41 GMT -5
Quote: My question to you still remains: "would your 'faith' in the Bible and the God of the Bible change if you witnessed a true 'miracle'? (That is if the Lord can find someone with enough 'faith' to achieve this.)I believed I answered this. A miracle is an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God. Those of us who do not believe there is a god would seek an explanation that does not rely on the paranormal.Another words, if you were there standing against the Red Sea with Moses, watch him pray to a God, then right after that witness the water separating with your own eyes, then walking between the two walls of water on dry land, coming to the other side you turn and see Pharaohs troops enter the sea after you, and then see Moses lift his staff in the air, pray to God and watch the water as it closes in upon the great army, watch as bodies, pieces of the chariots float upon the shore, and you would still search for a scientific explanation? Watching the pillar of fire by night, day after day the cloud over your heads, and ONLY your heads, but clear sky everywhere else and still all this would not even faze you? You still would seek after a rational explanation of this? Indeed I would. You see, any advanced technology is viewed as magic (works of god). Had people at the time of Jesus seen an airplane they would have attributed it to the paranormal. A BIC lighter would have knocked the socks off of many people and it would be a miracle. The statues that shed "tears" were considered a miracle until examined and - opps - olive oil. Slight of hand and illusions are often seen as paranormal events when they are just ordinary things presented to trick the user. Or it could be that it was the result of any of the several possibilities that have been suggested. Or, like the sun reversing itself as recorded in the OT - probably never happened. It is something that has not happened but would result in some serious investigations if it is ever reported. It is curious that theists believe atheists will suddenly believe in god if something that cannot be immediately explained happens. Or they will for some reason turn to god if they find themselves in dire straits.
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Dec 28, 2008 2:05:57 GMT -5
Rational, Here are some facts, that changed in time.
The earth is flat. (We know that is not true today)
The sky is blue. (it has no color, but only reflects color.)
And to quote you: ''The trick is separating the facts from the opinions.''
Who is the authority that can say which is which given the other "faulty facts here?", And how long before other "facts" prove them to be faulty also?
Just a brain fog thought.... As always, peace and love of God to all, Pianoman
|
|
|
Post by rational on Dec 28, 2008 8:13:56 GMT -5
Rational, Here are some facts, that changed in time. The sky is blue. (it has no color, but only reflects color.) I believe it is due to refraction rather than reflection. We, humans, are the authority. If facts are presented they are examined to determine their validity. At one time the earth was thought to be the center of the universe. The data showed something else and eventually it was determined that the geocentric theory was an inaccurate theory.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Dec 28, 2008 8:31:59 GMT -5
Ariandgabe, Just as Rational can not describe blue to me if I had never had sight, you can not describe your faith in God to him as he may not have Spiritual sight. Actually, I can very accurately describe blue light in terms of wavelength, etc. It is your perception of blue that I cannot describe. Just as I cannot be sure that what I perceive about the color blue is the same as the perception of others. You might see blue as what I would see red but we have both been conditioned to label that as blue. Sometime there is a huge gap between reality and people's perception of that reality. I mean, the earth does, at times, look flat. For example. A and B are the same color:
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Dec 28, 2008 9:30:37 GMT -5
Rational, I think you are getting my drift.
To quote you;'' You might see blue as what I would see red but we have both been conditioned to label that as blue.''
You have not responded to the question "Can you describe blue to a blind man that has never had sight?"
I don't want to debate things with you. You are far more educated, intelligent and learned. I just want you to accept my faith, as I accept your posts and choose what I want to believe.
I have never been harsh with you and hope to never do so. I only wish for your inner peace to be complete, and IMO, it is God that will make that happen.
Really, you are closer to believing than was Paul the Apostle. He was totally against the faith with another belief in God. He had to switch from the left foot to both then to the right foot.
You, on the other hand only need to shift a little. You will succumb. Too many are praying for you, but don't worry, it isn't painful.
God's love and peace to all, and may he reveal his will to us, Pianoman
|
|
|
Post by rational on Dec 28, 2008 17:27:35 GMT -5
Rational, I think you are getting my drift. To quote you;'' You might see blue as what I would see red but we have both been conditioned to label that as blue.'' You have not responded to the question "Can you describe blue to a blind man that has never had sight?" I did respond that I could define the electromagnetic radiation that we have defined as blue, but as I said, I cannot describe how you, blind or sighted, would perceive it. OK - don't. I accept the fact that you have faith/belief in the paranormal. I really do not have a problem with inner peace but if I did I don't believe that god would factor into modifying how I feel. I have my own thoughts about Paul. That will be interesting since there has been little proof of the effectiveness of prayer to date.
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Dec 30, 2008 9:22:24 GMT -5
Rational, You are still here my friend. That tells me something.
Remember, you may not believe in God, but He believes in you and I hope you would just try some Faith.
I find a fact based life, not too exciting, and as I showed that facts change with knowledge, (the world is flat).
Just stick around brother, I hope for peace for all and love of my God, Pianoman
|
|
|
Post by rational on Dec 31, 2008 14:56:46 GMT -5
Rational, You are still here my friend. That tells me something. Indeed it does. It shows you that, just as I have been for the past year, I am here posting now. I have a deal with god - he has his beliefs and I have mine, or lack there of, and we try not to interfere with each other But there is the thrill of discovery and the chance to set the record straight rather than look at the 'facts' in the bible and let them stand, even in the bright light of data that shows them to be completely in error. But then, that is what faith is all about - the willing suspension of disbelief. Me too! All except the god part.
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Dec 31, 2008 17:26:45 GMT -5
Well we agree on one thing, peace. That, my friend is a good start!!!
I hope all have a wonderful new year.......
I hope for understanding, compassion, growth, and increased faith for 2009, Pianoman
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jan 1, 2009 15:50:12 GMT -5
Well we agree on one thing, peace. That, my friend is a good start!!! I hope all have a wonderful new year....... I hope for understanding, compassion, growth, and increased faith for 2009, Pianoman And I hope for logical thinking based on facts rather than preconceived notions.
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Jan 2, 2009 0:12:39 GMT -5
I will simply accept that we agree that we both want peace. You are starting to sound like Mr Spock of Star Trek. But, he was a nice fellow too.
I am quite curious, but in just a few sentences, what are your hopes and dreams for life? I really would like to know, I am not being facetious, but serious.
I wish for our agreed peace, and go on my own to wish all the peace of God, Pianoman
|
|
|
Post by ariandgabe on Feb 24, 2009 2:04:51 GMT -5
Pianoman wrote to Rational: I am quite curious, but in just a few sentences, what are your hopes and dreams for life? I really would like to know, I am not being facetious, but serious.
Hey guys, this was good so far, why did we stop? Rational, Pianoman had a good question and I too would like to hear your response; what are your hopes and dreams for life?
|
|
|
Post by ariandgabe on Feb 24, 2009 3:04:19 GMT -5
RATIONAL, You are an extremely interesting fellow to dialog with, no unbeliever has shown such strong stand on his un-faith as you have, and I have argued with many atheists over many years who had long running TV shows, but they fall apart and quit because they feel that they might make a mistake and turn Christian.
But you, well you have really tested my brain, my knowledge in what I say I believe in, which in turn has answered a lot of my own questions regarding Christianity.
But what gave you away was when you said that even if you were there when Moses separated the sea, ... you would simply accept it as you have the Big Bang theory, simply that; "IT JUST HAPPENED" '... so there God, I will still not believe in you nor will I ever serve you no matter what you throw at me!'
You see Rational, I have been asking God that what is the reason that I have come across you? What can I possibly learn from an atheist of atheists like Rational?
And now that I have re-read our talks, He revealed to me, and one of the reasons is is to answer my question: I had this question to God for many years; "When Satan fell, when he saw that he could never become as great as God, and that he was cast out of heaven, why didn't he repent?
Why couldn't he just say; 'sorry Lord, that was a stupid and dumb thing for me to try, please forgive me and it will NEVER happen again!"
Why can't he say that, knowing how loving God is, he must realize that he can be forgiven, no?
I mean, I'm sure that angels have a freedom of choice in heaven just as we have on earth, otherwise they would not have chosen to follow Satan, right?
But no, the Bible never ever even hints on Satan admitting defeat. Even though he is lower then dust now, even called a 'snake' that slithers on his belly, he continues with his wicked and twisted plan to conquer.
WHY? Why not admit to defeat when you are defeated?
No, the Bible even tells us what he will try to do after he is released from being locked up for a thousand years;
Rev 20:7-10 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
and look at this, I mean I know he can read what has been written about him, or can't he?
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. NKJV
so even that he knows that he cannot ever succeed, he continues to try to maime and kill and destroy Gods elect.
And now, with what you Rational have answered about my questions regarding believing in miracles, I have the answer.
You just cannot handle defeat, the same as Satan who cannot seem to handle it either. You are truly a hardened unbeliever, just like your father the Devil. It is not I who says this, but Jesus said it himself to the Pharisees, whose PRIDE were unmovable.
Your PRIDE is so great in yourself, that even if you see God splitting the sea right in front of you, and when you would walk across the Red Sea on dry land, with walls of water on both sides, that you could put your head in to see if it really is the sea-wall, and even if you grabbed a fish from it, and watch as it closes in after you on Pharaohs army, you say you would NOT believe.
If you would have seen (or I asked you if you would see with your own eyes) a man like Lazarus, dead for 4 days and begin to smell of rotten flesh, and would wake up and walk out of the grave, the peaces of hanging flesh being reconstructed front of your very eyes, his color come back within seconds, and you say you would immediately question if he was even ever dead to begin with.
NOW I understand about Satan, his angels, about MIRACLES that I thought so far that it would be a helpful tool in bringing people to Christ, that IT IS NOT SO.
As Pianoman said: 'God will not drag anyone into heaven".
What you have clearly defined my friend is that even if you seen God with your own eyes, and would show you things that are out of this world, you would still say into His face that; "I still won't believe in you!"
This reminds me of a skit from Monty Python; where a knight is defeated, first his one arm cut off, then the other, and his legs one by one, and as he is bleeding and sitting on his ass as a stub, he still talks like he is winning the battle; ".. Is that all you got? Come on and fight!" and yet he is dying.
This is you Rational, as you age, I can see you slowly loosing all your strength and scream at God; 'is that all you got, I still won't serve you, nor become your child. I will rather burn in hell then to serve a loving God!"
It is not that you lack faith, you have a lot more faith than most of us here on TMB, it is not that you don't believe in miracles, as you explained to us, you would NOT BELIEVE IT EVEN IF YOU SEEN IT!
You know well that man is miracle, compared to what we can do even with all this technology. All this here creation , even a lily that is here today and gone tomorrow is an awesome creation that man could never achieve in making in a million years.
Another words, you rather believe a lie, over the truth, even if you KNOW the truth. If God would raise the dead, split the sea, heal a withered arm, you still would say: "It just happened, just like everything we see around us, it ALL JUST HAPPENED! And YOU GOD, I will NEVER bow down to."
But remember this my friend, that 'every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, and that God is God, and we are dust, nothing more unless HE makes us to be, or elevates us to hight of 'Children of HIS'.
... how dark is the darkness, when so much light is around you Rational?
I really feel sorry for you, it is NOT Gods will for this, for you to be so hard headed. It is YOUR CHOICE. You have turned your heart into a rock, and pride has hardened it even more.
In Jesus name, I pray that God would soften your heart, and humble your spirit.
From someone who was brought up as a dog is raised, beaten, spit upon, starved day after day, I know what is love, and it is NOT us. NOT MAN, not what we do, we are nothing but no good evil hard headed no good people, who have been given the chance of eternity. Rational, you put your trust in yourself, and THAT is your biggest mistake. 'Trust not in your own understanding, ..." but you just won't listen, just like my 5 brothers, one sister and my dead mom and dad. No matter what, you will NEVER bend, huh?
This is why you right away rejected my story of abuse I tried to tell you about. You have no idea what else I now remember, that I have actually lived through it was a miracle after miracle. Things like that just don't HAPPEN, (and I get to keep my sanity also).
Only with GOD can these things be possible. Too bad I could never share it with you my friend, because it would scare you, that you might start believing. This is why you said that I'm lying, as if I had a reason to make this up, for what? To try to please you?
I have GOD, why would I want your approval, or any mans approval. I KNOW THE HEARTS OF MEN, I KNOW HOW A LOVING MOTHER COULD BE, I KNOW HOW DEAR BROTHERS COULD BE ALL IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY.
If anyone had a reason to hate (God, people, life in general) I have a thousand and one reasons to, but in all this, I have seen the LOVE of God, and man, I tell you HE loves me as I see He loves you.
I pray that you could feel and confess His love also, my friend, before it is too late. Jesus kept saying this: ".. before it is too late! Before the gate is closed, the door shut ..."
In HIS name
Amen
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 24, 2009 10:43:20 GMT -5
RATIONAL, You are an extremely interesting fellow to dialog with, no unbeliever has shown such strong stand on his un-faith as you have, and I have argued with many atheists over many years who had long running TV shows, but they fall apart and quit because they feel that they might make a mistake and turn Christian. Did they tell you this or is this a projection on your part - that your own faith might falter? Glad I could help. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I have seen many things that were, at the time, without explanation. But if studied there has always been an explanation that does not require the existence of a supernatural being. And what did god say? That it was because we were both posting to the same message board? You are free to assign any reason you wish. A book without the continual struggle between good and evil just doesn't have the drawing power. I really can't speculate on the feelings of a mythical being that I do not believe exists. It's your story so I guess you can make up the plot as you go. It would be like speculating why Captain Ahab didn't stop chasing Moby Dick. I don't know. Is ot because you cannot admit there are contradictions in the bible? Or because, like a house of cards, if one slips the whole thing comes tumbling down? I don't know if he can read or not - it is your story. If you want him to read make him a reader - no one can prove you right or wrong. <snip - biblical quote deleted> OK I am not sure calling my dad a devil helps your argument. Are you sure this is not just projection on your part? It seems it is you who is unable to admit you might have some flaws in your logic. Nope - this is you saying this. I no more believe it is anyone but you than you believe the FSM is looking over my shoulder and moving my fingers as I type with his noodly appendage. Believing something has happened does not mean you believe god made it happen. Several have offered possible natural causes. Given the technology of the day, yes. But look at what you have done. You have embellished the account just a bit. Why do you think there would be pieces of hanging flesh? Where does it say that in John? Why do you think there was a smell? The bible only has the caution that he might smell but if he were not actually dead there would be no decomposition. You have twisted the scripture to make your case. Without the twist there is nothing to say that Lazarus was mistakenly pronounced dead. I am glad you have this understanding. I can agree with this. This is not so. You have tried to say that some unexplained phenomena will prove that god exists. I say it is just an event waiting for an explanation. I am sure it must to you. You continue to claim things in an attempt to bolster your case but are not able to offer any proof. Again, you are in error. I would no more scream at god than you would scream at the green dragon in my garage (unless, of course, you believe there is a green dragon in my garage). You are wrong again. I would believe in the event. I just would not call it a miracle. I think perhaps you are using a different definition of miracle than I am. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.We know about human development. We know why lilies grow. There is no miracle there. Perhaps when stem cell research is allowed to continue there will be a better chance that genetic engineering can bring many more benefits to man. Well, I have seen people brought back from the dead and have seen people who were not brought back. From what I could see, it was the extent of the wound and the skill of the doctor/medic that made the difference. You can certainly trust in prayer and the magical workings of your god if you wish but I will trust in a medic with good hands. Again, you are quoting from a book that, to me, is just a book. As Carl Sagan said, we live in a demon haunted world. Unless, of course, you do not believe in demons. You know, hardening the heart makes little sense now that it is known that the heart is just a pump and emotions/feelings/etc. and all centered in the brain. Another case where the bible just falls down. But it does bring up something to consider. Remember Moses and the Pharaoh? And god brought plagues onto the people of Egypt because Pharaoh would not let the people go? If you read it you can see that it was god that was "hardening Pharaoh's" heart. This is according to your bible: Exodus 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Exodus 11:10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
So this whole thing was a sham just so god could show off his powers. And then he killed all of the first born and blamed in on Pharaoh when, according to the text, it was god that prevented Pharaoh from letting the people go. This is the supreme being you want me to believe exists? Thanks for your thoughts. Your belief and you are certainly welcome to it. It really has nothing to do with bending. More with believing myths. I rejected parts of your story because they contradicted known facts. You may have not explained the events clearly but all I had to go on was what you wrote and there were several things that simply didn't ring true. I have no idea of your experiences other than what you relate. As you know, human memory is not very good at all. Test after test has shown that with time the accuracy fades and actual events are replaced with stories. Only you can answer that question. I recognize this as your belief and you are welcome to it. Tell me, when will you come around and submit to the FSM? Don;t you see how absurd this is? You do not believe in FSM and I do not believe in god. Why do you think I would start? Because I fear hell? But I don't. Not only do I not fear it but I do not believe it exists. If the FSM threatened you with something terrible would you suddenly welcome the embrace of his Noodly Appendage? I didn't think so.
|
|
|
Post by ariandgabe on Feb 25, 2009 14:15:19 GMT -5
I have no idea of your experiences other than what you relate. As you know, human memory is not very good at all. Test after test has shown that with time the accuracy fades and actual events are replaced with stories.
So just about everything I remember (excuse me, I thought I remember) are very possibly stories I made up over time. I am 52 now, so to say; I remember clearly that this and that happened when I was 4, 5 years old is ludicrous to say the least?
Did you get this information from those ‘ancient books’ that were written way before the Bible, or before the Old Testament writings were even around? What standard could scientist possibly use to ‘test’ the human brain and what we think and how or who can remember what? Each of us are so different, influenced by so many factors, some can take LSD and smoke pot (like my bosses daughter used to) for days and drive 2700 miles with no problem (She told me that her friend and her were pretending that they were actually running like the Flintstones in their car, and it was so real that they actually got tired). But me on the other hand, would freak out with even one big ‘toke’ of the pot.
Certain events can leave deep impressions in our brains; even if we hid them for a long time, they can come back with such clarity that It is like I’m standing right there now. How could scientist determine what I’m seeing is NOT glimpses of what I lived through?
You don’t believe me because you are influenced by my way of thinking that you oppose vehemently. As I said before, you would make a poor psychologist or psychiatrist my friend, even with all that knowledge you have accumulated over the years because as soon as your patient would say he/she believes in God, you would paint them ‘crazy’ right off the bat.
So what your saying is that when you belonged to the 2X2’s, and decided to leave, that the reasons you left are all but vanished from your memory, and it could be that with your ‘more intelligent and rational thinking’ you now possess, you could have been very wrong in leaving?
What I mean is that you had your reasons for leaving way back then, right? But those reasons are just about vanished over time, replaced by fairytale stories influenced by all your studying of the material universe, science, evolution, drinking, watching TV and so on, right?
So, why don’t you go back and re-join them and refresh your memory, it might be that you made a terrible mistake! According to you, you really don’t have a legitimate reason for staying away from the church, simply because whatever reasons you had; “Test after test has shown that with time the accuracy fades and actual events are replaced with stories.”
Now with that thought, let me bring up this ‘theory’ that has been going around for some time, the ‘Big Bang’ thingy, about 6 billion years ago;
“… A few minutes into the expansion, when the temperature was about a billion (one thousand million; 109; SI prefix giga) Kelvin and the density was about that of air, neutrons combined with protons to form the universe's deuterium and helium nuclei in a process called Big Bang nucleosynthesis. Most protons remained uncombined as hydrogen nuclei.
As the universe cooled, the rest mass energy density of matter came to gravitationally dominate that of the photon radiation. After about 379,000 years the electrons and nuclei combined into atoms (mostly hydrogen); hence the radiation decoupled from matter and continued through space largely unimpeded
A combination of observations and theory suggest that the first quasars and galaxies formed about a billion years after the Big Bang, and since then larger structures have been forming, such as galaxy clusters and superclusters.”
Even if we were there to witness as the universe evolved, let’s say in 52 years, no one could really talk about it with any accuracy, since many of the witnessed facts would be mixed up with stories, right?
Look at the absurdity in the above claims, no one was there to measure any of this, but in the Billions of years of evolution; “After about 379,000 years the electrons and nuclei combined into atoms, …” NOT 380, nor 378, but exactly 379,000. And these accurate theories you stand by, but even if you saw God, and Him splitting the sea right front of you, you would NOT believe.
How on earth do you expect to understand the Bible with this kind of logic? Like the next thing you say;
Rational: But it does bring up something to consider. Remember Moses and the Pharaoh? And god brought plagues onto the people of Egypt because Pharaoh would not let the people go? If you read it you can see that it was god that was "hardening Pharaoh's" heart. This is according to your bible:
Exodus 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Exodus 11:10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
So this whole thing was a sham just so god could show off his powers.
And then he killed all of the first born and blamed in on Pharaoh when, according to the text, it was god that prevented Pharaoh from letting the people go.
This is the supreme being you want me to believe exists?
Pharaoh was a hard man, who thought that he was a god himself. But, so he would not fall apart before God achieved His purpose for Israel (and re-introduce Himself to the Egyptians and the whole world), God hardened Pharaohs heart.
Did you notice that even the first 2 or 3 miracles were something the Pharaohs’ magicians could do, this too was carefully thought out by God, to pick THOSE miracles that the Magicians could do first, to TEST the hearts of His people, if they would give up, or stop believing before the Exodus ever got even started. Also to ‘separate the chaff from the wheat’ so-to-speak, but as we read on, we learn that most of them turned out to be chaff and only their kids made it into the Promised Land.
Now I know you will say: “That’s what YOU say!” but I can show it to you from the Bible that it is so. Jesus did the same thing when He was here; people followed HIM, they flocked to Him, where at times he had to get in a boat so he would not be crushed, and so He could continue to talk to them. He invited all to: “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men”
You think God can’t make you or anyone on this earth to believe in Him if He wanted to? He could make the whole atmosphere disappear, and have every man standing on dry ground with nothing around us, like the (MOON shot) gazing at His awesome POWER, now that would get your attention, but that is NOT what God wants.
He wants US to want HIM. He doesn’t want to MAKE us want Him, which would be really easy for Him to do.
Just look what happened in heaven with Lucifer. Do you think Satan was talking to the other angels about a ‘take-over’ front of Gods Face? No.
God leaves everyone alone for a time, but He makes sure that we are O.K., that we have everything that we need while He ‘hides His loving face’ from view. One call, one cry and He runs to our aid.
It was during this time when Satan bragged how awesome he was, and how beautiful he was, and how he will ‘rise up to the third heavens and become as great as God’. But you know what happened; God cast that sucker out of heaven ‘like lightning that falls to the earth!’
No, God could make anyone believe in Him if He wanted to, but LOVE does not force people to do things, love ‘draws’ people. This is why I keep talking with you Rational, (and because my mind gets a little sharper every time we talk), so it will be interesting to see what the result of our mini ‘battle of words’ amount to after a while. But know this, that God WILL achieves His purpose for both of us, and whatever you decide to do will be your OWN CHOICE, even though, maybe God hardened your heart for now. As I said, it is to achieve a lot of positive goals by that; for you, for me, and hopefully for other readers here on TMB.
Besides Rational, why DID you leave the WAY the TRUTH of the 2X2’s? But my main question is; Why has that experience made you hate God and the Bible? I showed you from Scripture that just because someone ‘calls’ themselves Christian, don’t mean that they are. You are so smart, why can’t you get a good program and study the Bible like you obviously studied science and all that other stuff?
Get this program; “PC Study Bible” and you could cross reference and search through hundreds of books where you wouldn’t have to go by what other religious people say about the Bible and what they say Christian means, but KNOW it for yourself. It is obvious to me that you don’t understand the Bible as a whole, not even what it’s about. I believe that you are more lost now then when you were with the 2X2’s.
And of course, pray. Pray that God would help you understand, but then, that would mean to humble yourself, right?
ariandgabe
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 25, 2009 15:20:41 GMT -5
So just about everything I remember (excuse me, I thought I remember) are very possibly stories I made up over time. I am 52 now, so to say; I remember clearly that this and that happened when I was 4, 5 years old is ludicrous to say the least? I was only pointing out how fallible human memory is. No, I got the information from current research that can be replicated and tested for verification. It is easy. Take a group of people on a walk with video cameras. Expose them to different "scenes" that the group observes and also video the same "scene" at the same time. In a couple of months have the people recall what they saw. The results are easy to verify. OK. You are right. People in the group had widely divergent 'memory' of the walk. You sensitivity to drugs is not the issue. In reality, it doesn't matter. What will effect you is what you remember. Children who 'remember' they were, for example, beaten with sticks, whether they were or not, will suffer the same as those who actually were. I don't believe you because your story included thinks like being exposed to malaria in an area where there is no malaria. Your belief in god does not make you either crazy or sane. It is a belief. However, if you stand in front of a speeding train feeling it will not hurt you because you are wearing special underwear provided by god I would say you were out of touch with reality. I never said memories vanished. I said over time they very well may become distorted. I left because I did not believe in god. Not a memory. Wrong. I have never believed in god. I took the easy road and went along until I was no longer living in my parents home. Because the memory has nothing to do with my lack of belief in the paranormal. The big bang was thought to be about 14 (13.7) billion years ago. Wrong since these are testable things and not recalled on the basis of human memory. There is a difference between subject and object data. 379,000 years is not an exact number it is the best estimate. It is based on the laws of physics and mathematics. I can say that because I was quoting what the bible said. God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Yes. God hardened Pharaoh's heart and then, because Pharaoh's was hardened, god killed the firstborn. You are spinning. God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God then sent plagues because Pharaoh's heart was hardened. Giod killed children because he first hardened Pharaoh's heart then send the plague because Pharaoh's heart was hardened. We are not talking about fishers here but about a supreme being who killed people after he, as a supreme being, made them do the act for which he was punishing them. You think the FSM can’t make you or anyone on this earth to believe in Him if He wanted to? He could make the whole atmosphere disappear, and have every man standing on dry ground with nothing around us, like the (MOON shot) gazing at His awesome POWER, now that would get your attention, but that is NOT what the FSM wants.
Can you prove or disprove either of the above? God is, so I have heard, omnipresent. How could you talk anywhere but in his presence? Are you saying there is some place you can go where god cannot see/hear you? It sounds like you agree that he is omnipresent. Now do you want to rethink your statements about Lucifer? This is what the bible says. Shall I quote to you about the fights other gods/demons had that had the same results? I guess I need to be careful. God hardened the heart of Pharaoh and then killed his firstborn. You are not saying god has hardened my heart(whatever that means). Doesn;t seem like a goot plan to get to someone though. I don't hate god or the bible. I simply do not believe in god and think the bible is a collection of writings by various people and groups pass down over the ages. I have. But just because you study it does not mean you accept it all as fact. There are far too many errors and even internal contradictions. It is all available on line if I ever feel the need. Prove to me that praying gives any results that cannot be achieved by talking to yourself or doing nothing and we can talk about the benefits.
|
|
|
Post by moralityagain on Jun 22, 2009 23:23:41 GMT -5
Why the cruelty? Why indeed? Well, because people get so wrapped up in trying to prove they are right and others are wrong and that God is on their side and not that of someone else that they will fight and say mean things to others and argue and even kill each other over religion. Why? Because they do not sit down together with "sinners" like Jesus did and they do not love their fellow men (and women) and wish them all well and care about them and want to truly share with them. Instead people with the affliction of being "messianic complex" individuals think they are going to change others and make them believe as they do and so they will feel more right within themselves. It is also called self righteousness and it is not a good thing. Judging others was supposed to be God's business. So remember that when you direct statements at others you are judging them and saying to them that they are wrong and you are right. Why so sure? Well, for myself I have found that ignorance is bliss and so I would like to be as happy as possible. So I am seeking to not learn much of anything and just to be like a lamb dumb before the shearers and so the dumber I can get the more they can shear me and I will not realize that I am being led beside the still waters and having my soul restored and being sheepish. Good shepherds actually are in business and want to sell the meat of the sheep and the hair off of them. So, just watch out when someone wants to feed and care for you and watch over you and bring you back to the fold because you are likely to become leg of lamb on the grill or maybe mutton stew if you are too tough or something.
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Jun 23, 2009 1:17:00 GMT -5
ariandgabe
You are very naughty. It is the Father who calls and the Holy Spirit who convicts man. Not man.With your comments you have stood in Gods shoes judging rational........ tut tut. What does the bible say? Judgement begins in the house of God. The judgement of God already rests on the unrighteuos, which means who are we to judge them too.
|
|
|
Post by ariandgabe on Jun 25, 2009 23:15:41 GMT -5
ariandgabe You are very naughty. It is the Father who calls and the Holy Spirit who convicts man. Not man.With your comments you have stood in Gods shoes judging rational........ tut tut. What does the bible say? Judgement begins in the house of God. The judgement of God already rests on the unrighteous, which means who are we to judge them too. Thank you Shushy, you said: You are very naughty.Yes, I am. This is why I pray all the time, but in no ways will I hold my peace and not confront someone who says to me that God is just a figment of my imagination, a spaghetti monster and no more. He also claims that the Bible is just a book of fairy tales, written by men who made a lot of mistakes in the writings of these little Books. I simply stand up to what the Bible teaches, but if you can point out my 'wrongful accusations' then please do so, so I can learn. Even if I did make mistakes in my arguments, does not mean that I will now quit standing up for what I believe is the truth. Show me where I am wrong dear believer, so I can apologize and go on with what God wants me to do. It is the Father who calls and the Holy Spirit who convicts man. Not man.Yes, and, .... what? So I'm to sit in my seat in church and no matter what the preacher says, no matter how he deforms the meaning of what is written, I should wait for the Holy Spirit to convict him? So what am I to say to myself; "Oh, one day he will regret his twisting of Gods Word, I'm not going to say a word. Who am I to approach a 'Minister, a Worker, an Elder of a huge church? Wasn't it God who let him preach front of millions of Christians? The whole world is watching him, so who am I to correct him? The people came to hear him, NOT me." "With your comments you have stood in Gods shoes judging rational........ tut tut. What does the bible say? Judgement begins in the house of God. The judgement of God already rests on the unrighteous, which means who are we to judge them too?"This is a part of what I said to him, and he answered me back without a sign of anger or hurt, but stood his ground as I do mine. He said what he felt needed to be said and I said what I felt was proper and needed to be said. If there is condemnation, then it is from Gods Word, and he knows that, and tells me that he doesn't believe in what the Bible says. You know well that man is miracle, compared to what we can do even with all this technology. All this here creation , even a lily that is here today and gone tomorrow is an awesome creation that man could never achieve in making in a million years.
Another words, you rather believe a lie, over the truth, even if you KNOW the truth. If God would raise the dead, split the sea, heal a withered arm, you still would say: "It just happened, just like everything we see around us, it ALL JUST HAPPENED! And YOU GOD, I will NEVER bow down to."But remember this my friend, that 'every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, and that God is God, and we are dust, nothing more unless HE makes us to be, or elevates us to hight of 'Children of HIS'.But what is amazing, that you claim to be Christian and so far no one (except Pianoman occasionally) backs me up. If it's about idolatry like the Christmas Tree, or the Easter Bunny, or divorce, or the Trinity Doctrine, or barring arms for a leader like Hitler, and even homosexuality, just about anything I quote the Bible on to those that oppose its teaching, my dear fellow Believers leave me on my own. But so you know, there is ONE who has NEVER left me alone yet, and I give HIM glory, and will war against the opposing principalities and those powers of darkness till the day I die (that is if God continues to give me strength!!!) moralityagain said: Why the cruelty? Why indeed? Well, because people get so wrapped up in trying to prove they are right and others are wrong and that God is on their side and not that of someone else that they will fight and say mean things to others and argue and even kill each other over religion.Another example how Christians see me, as someone who would even 'kill' over religion, and yet I almost stand alone on 'turning the other cheek'. This is what is coming and is already here, that the Christians themselves will bring about the laws that will muzzle the true teachings of Christ, that whoever mentions 'homosexuality', or against bearing arms, or idolatry, or that those that use the Book of Mormon teach 'against' everything Jesus taught, (even though they claim to be a 'Church of Jesus Christ') will be an enemy of the State! Luke 6:39 And He spoke a parable to them: "Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? NKJV
1 Cor 6:9-10 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. NKJVAm I judging if I should quote the above verses? According to most here, I am. And so the law will pass, that anyone who quotes such harsh and condemning words to his fellow man will be labeled as one void of love, someone who is promoting 'Hate Crimes', someone 'who would even kill over religion'. It is NOT I who believes in 'human Justice' by condemning a man to death- capital-punishment, but it is almost everyone here that call themselves Christian. See the real hate? Maybe we ALL better re-read and open our eyes, hearts and souls to the verses below: Luke 6:40-42 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher. 41 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye.NKJV So, because I don't believe in killing another Christian in what my president claims to be an enemy country, I am 'judging' those who do? Yes, by the New Christian World Order, I am. By speaking against 'abortion, homosexuality, Capital Punishment, the Christmas Tree, Easter, I have become a promoter of Hate Crimes. So when one of those Christians who believe that it is O.K. to kill in self-defense goes out and kills an Abortion Doctor, or a homosexual, it will be me who will get the blame, for it was ME who spoke against such sins using the Bible. And who 'voted' for this to pass? Not me, for I don't vote. (actually, neither do you, they just let you think you do) Heb 10:30-31 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.NKJV It is NOT being 'judgemental' by quoting these verses, I did not say this, but God has. Heb 10:36-39 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. NKJV
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jun 26, 2009 12:57:20 GMT -5
Yes, I am. This is why I pray all the time, but in no ways will I hold my peace and not confront someone who says to me that God is just a figment of my imagination, a spaghetti monster and no more. He also claims that the Bible is just a book of fairy tales, written by men who made a lot of mistakes in the writings of these little Books. You really don't want to add prevarication to your list of transgressions, do you? I have never called your beliefs a figment of your imagination nor called the bible fairy tales. You believe in your god(s) without proof and I don't, it is that simple. I do believe there is as much merit in believing in your god as the FSM. Do you have any points to show that is not true? Let's be honest - you stand up for what you believe the bible teaches. There are almost as many thoughts about that as there are people who read the bible.
|
|
|
Post by ariandgabe on Jun 27, 2009 13:46:28 GMT -5
You really don't want to add prevarication to your list of transgressions, do you? I have never called your beliefs a figment of your imagination nor called the bible fairy tales.
You referred to it as 'no different then the story of Peter Pan, and The Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc..' so that's not likening the Bible to fairy tales?
And when you keep saying to me: "That's what you say" or "Thats what you believe", this is why I said what I said. Now I know you are good in twisting meanings and words, so I'll just leave it at that.
You believe in your god(s) without proof and I don't, it is that simple. I do believe there is as much merit in believing in your god as the FSM. Do you have any points to show that is not true?
I gave you proof after proof, like there are atoms, and molecules ands so on, right? And someone obviously put them in order and created all that we see, right? So there is a Maker, and the Bible teaches us who this Maker IS. He is God, the great I Am. Now what other 'proof' can anyone give you, who wouldn't even believe if he saw the Red Sea split right before his eyes?
|
|
|
Post by ariandgabe on Jun 27, 2009 15:33:48 GMT -5
Quote: Certain events can leave deep impressions in our brains; even if we hid them for a long time, they can come back with such clarity that It is like I’m standing right there now. How could scientist determine what I’m seeing is NOT glimpses of what I lived through?
In reality, it doesn't matter. What will effect you is what you remember. Children who 'remember' they were, for example, beaten with sticks, whether they were or not, will suffer the same as those who actually were.
I just re-read an answer that you had for me rational, and this about sums up for me your intellect and view of how you see God. If you were there with a hundred other people to witness when Jesus healed the withered hand of a man, you could simply say; ‘It is not healed, he only thinks it is healed.’
Or; “It was never withered, the man simply thought it was, and when Jesus said to him ‘be whole’ he simply accepted (believed) His statement, and nothing really changed.”
If someone would say: “Hey, I know this guy since he was a kid and his hand WAS withered all his life!”
You would say: “That’s nice, if that is what you want to believe, then you are welcome to it. Maybe you just want to believe in this Jesus character so bad, that you will accept anything he does as real. I am happy for you, just go and rejoice with his family, it will do some good for you.”
Or; “Lazarus was never dead, but mistakenly buried.” (Now it doesn’t say that Lazarus was screaming inside the tomb to have someone release him, or that Jesus probably heard him screaming and that’s why He said to the people: “Roll away the stone”, so you can make up whatever you please.) and simply say; “He was sleeping. That is what Jesus said, right?” Ignoring the whole Scriptures where True Believers cannot die, for they have already died to the flesh when they got baptized and have accepted being born-again into the Kingdom of the living God. These are all just sleeping, waiting for the last trumpet sound to be woken from this sleep.
But not you, you take only that sentence and ignore the whole Bible. This is what you do to everyone you oppose, answer one line at a time, since it fits your view, and covers the ‘real meaning’ the person is trying to express. What a trickster you are, and why not, it works, right rational?
Or; “Moses never split the sea, but when he was kicked out of Egypt, he spent 40 years in the desert filling a path over the sea where he will make the Israelites believe they are walking through the water.” (as you have a hundred other explanations)
Or: “The rivers did not turn to smelly blood, but simply turned red from some food coloring Moses used to trick everyone. (But this statement would have to wait till all the blood is gone and the river is back to normal. Otherwise someone might grab you and make you drink the smelly blood and eat the blood covered stinky fishes.) A few years later, this comment would be a welcome to the Egyptians, they would all say: “Yeas, all it was, was food coloring.”
Or: “Jesus didn’t actually fulfill any prophesies, the Apostles simply said He did. Just look how friendly he was to the ladys in the city, he was nothing but a lady-monger. He had Mary as his girlfriend, and talk about a lot of homosexual activity with his disciples, He even loved one more then the others. Or he didn’t actually die on the cross, that story never happened, it was actually he that caused many deaths which He tried to resurrect later but failed. Yes, he was a con-man to say the least. His fame is because of that, NOT that He said to preach to every nation, and that everyone will hear about Him, no, that is not true.”
You see Rational, this is exactly how you present yourself. It’s not hard, nor smart. Anyone, including me can do it.
The thing is that when you talk about the ‘Theory of Evolution’, science starts off with so many ‘theories’ that we don’t even have to ‘make up’ opposing statements against it, the scientists themselves do it. You cannot even compare the two, creation vs. evolution, just read all the rhetoric. But when you read the Bible, it all fits like a perfect puzzle. It all makes sense at the end, but what is of a greater miracle; you don’t need to understand all of it to live as if you lived forever.
But without the Bible, we can lie to everyone without even the slightest guilt, for there anything goes, lies, hate, greed, anger against the Christians (and the Jews), murder – of course that is only to ‘protect’ ones family from those evil Christians who don’t believe in killing anyone to protect themselves. Yeah, THAT is the greater evil, for what if it gets to our children and they too will learn to turn the other cheek? Can you imagine the horror? People actually ‘loving’ each other instead of punishing those ‘we’ consider evil, and ‘not with us’?
Learn what this means: “My boat did not sink, but the enemies did. My brakes still work, I did not crash, nor was she-living with us able to tempt me (leaving her bedroom door open, and her shower door open) nor poison me. Go ahed, make copies of all my keys, all I have is the Lords. I am nothing but sheep for slaughter, but beware for my defender and my protector remains to be God, and because you are trying to kill me because I have done nothing wrong, kind of is an honor to me, as My Lord once said: “For they hated me without a cause!”.
But He did not protect me all these years, and kept me alive just so you could kill me now! Not until I fulfill HIS purpose, for me suffering all these years in agony and pain.” Yes, ‘Work is Freedom’ and I work day and night to fulfill my Gods will.
So as my Lord said:
John 19:11 11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." NKJV
Same way I stand until He calls me, I fear only my God.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Jun 27, 2009 17:22:41 GMT -5
If it's about idolatry like the Christmas Tree, or the Easter Bunny, or divorce, or the Trinity Doctrine, or barring arms for a leader like Hitler, and even homosexuality, just about anything I quote the Bible on to those that oppose its teaching, my dear fellow Believers leave me on my own. I won't leave you on your own, ari. I'm right there with you-- at least on the homosexuality issue. The bible very clearly teaches against it, in my opinion--both old and new testaments. I just think it's unfortunate that so many people believe that such rubbish is the law of god. Love ya! Gene
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Jun 27, 2009 19:45:21 GMT -5
The most that was spoken about homosexuality was written by Paul wasn't it? There was a Biblical scholar who said was that he was of the impression that the reason Paul wrote so strongly against homosexuality was because Paul was a repressed homosexual himself...that Paul felt that he was so different then the normal that he supressed all that which would have been natural for himself by his writings and preachings against it....he said also that is quite most likely why Paul was so verbal about hair and dress issues that others, not even Jesus addressed! I've wondered whether this scholar doesn't have something within his thoughts, because I've looked and looked throughout Jesus' life and teachings and I find nothing in Jesus' teachings and life even to address hair, clothing or homosexuality! Just a thought!
|
|
|
Post by ariandgabe on Jun 28, 2009 10:29:21 GMT -5
The most that was spoken about homosexuality was written by Paul wasn't it? There was a Biblical scholar who said was that he was of the impression that the reason Paul wrote so strongly against homosexuality was because Paul was a repressed homosexual himself...that Paul felt that he was so different then the normal that he supressed all that which would have been natural for himself by his writings and preachings against it....he said also that is quite most likely why Paul was so verbal about hair and dress issues that others, not even Jesus addressed! I've wondered whether this scholar doesn't have something within his thoughts, because I've looked and looked throughout Jesus' life and teachings and I find nothing in Jesus' teachings and life even to address hair, clothing or homosexuality! Just a thought! John 5:14 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." NKJVJohn 8:10-12 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord."
And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." 12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." NKJVJohn 12:45-48 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him — the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day NKJVActs 17:30-31 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." NKJVRom 3:5-8 5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath?(I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"? — as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. NKJVSharon, are you saying you are confused as to why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? That when the angels came to 'see for themselves' the abominations committed in these cities, and the men of the city came and wanted to have sex with them, you don't suppose that the angels were homosexual, do you? Or are you just wondering? If you are, I truly wonder whether you are saved or not? For how will you fulfill these next verses? 1 Cor 6:2-3 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? NKJVJust a thought? I would not leave it for the last day, so better find an answer to these thoughts, IMO
|
|
|
Post by ariandgabe on Jun 28, 2009 12:26:38 GMT -5
If it's about idolatry like the Christmas Tree, or the Easter Bunny, or divorce, or the Trinity Doctrine, or barring arms for a leader like Hitler, and even homosexuality, just about anything I quote the Bible on to those that oppose its teaching, my dear fellow Believers leave me on my own. I won't leave you on your own, ari. I'm right there with you-- at least on the homosexuality issue. The bible very clearly teaches against it, in my opinion--both old and new testaments. I just think it's unfortunate that so many people believe that such rubbish is the law of god. Love ya! Gene Thank you Gene, Then who's law is it? I think it is very clear on the stand on homosexuality, there are no contradictions neither in the Old or the New Testament. What if I was a kleptomaniac? Or who simply likes to kill innocent people? Or a molester? Should I blame the Bible for being 'negative' about those sins too? And blame all the crazy people who actually adhere to those laws and even bring them and make them the 'laws of their land'? I just think it's unfortunate that so many people believe that such rubbish is the law of god.So who would you like to have make the laws? Which 'laws' would you like to eliminate? I know that many child abusers say they cannot help it, so it sure would be 'kind and gentle' of us to eliminate 'sexual perversion' from the laws. A murderer would eliminate 'murder' A homosexual, homosexuality, A prostitute, adultery and fornication A lier, lies, ... Why stop there? Why just eliminate those 'unfortunate' laws that we have problems with, what about the rest of the people? They have rights too. So wipe them all out, and let's live 'without laws'! Each of us define 'law' on our own. After all, we came about by an accident, so let's see what will happen if we had no laws? See how or what we will 'evolve' into? Hey, I mean so far everything came out perfect, the only problem atheists have is these laws of God. It seems to hold this evolutionary process back a tad. Just imagine if for the past 6,000 years we had NO LAWS, and lived like animals, make up laws as they come up? If I don't like my neighbor looking at my partner (notice I did not say wife) I'd just kill him. When his family asks whether I killed him or not, I would say; "No!" If they ask me who done it, I would point to someone I hated but could not kill yet. Hey, this could be cool, no? Who needs this silly Bible anyways? Full of; "Do this and don't do that, ..." Who needs it. Let's define 'morality' without its influence. Oh yea, it is being done as we speak.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jun 28, 2009 16:38:21 GMT -5
Sharon, are you saying you are confused as to why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? That when the angels came to 'see for themselves' the abominations committed in these cities, and the men of the city came and wanted to have sex with them, you don't suppose that the angels were homosexual, do you? Or are you just wondering? If you are, I truly wonder whether you are saved or not? For how will you fulfill these next verses? I think it just might be you who is confused. The reasons why S&G were destroyed is clearly stated - Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
—Ezekiel 16:49-50 I'm all set with these questions but thanks for the heads-up.
|
|