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Post by degem on Dec 27, 2007 22:48:57 GMT -5
It is a very sad, sad situation. I know there are two sides to every story.. but I feel overall that the situation was handled in a cruel and demeaning way...that if some of the workers had shown a Godly spirit and love towards the people...things might have turned out differently? I don't know....all I can say is I don't have any respect for workers who behave like that...or anyone else. gem PS You better watch out Scott I'm catching up ...pretty soon I will have as many posts as you! ;D
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 27, 2007 23:00:42 GMT -5
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Post by degem on Dec 28, 2007 11:56:07 GMT -5
Good morning Scott! You are too modest about your posts..you are "laid back" and levelheaded where I am just the opposite . But now on a more serious note.....I am very concerned about what I saw in the second picture you posted. Have you seen a doctor about your eye condition? It may affect your motorcycle driving.. just thought I would point that out to you ... Gem
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 28, 2007 12:27:41 GMT -5
That eye condition is caused by riding too fast without a face shield. In layman's terms it is often referred to as 'bugeye'. Scott
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Post by degem on Dec 28, 2007 12:30:31 GMT -5
Well I am glad that you know what it is...for a minute there you had me worried. gem
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Post by lovejoy on Jan 19, 2008 14:32:32 GMT -5
Jesus was the rejected one. Does it seem then that God allows us to experience rejection to prove his love for us.? I had a deep and vivid experience once during the worst experience of my life when I thought that I had been rejected by everyone including God. Now I think as far as God is concerned He knows who is still committed. Won't there be some surprises at the end when we see who is who??? Love never dies.
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mirb
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by mirb on Jan 21, 2008 10:13:19 GMT -5
This is my first time to be on this site. I have just finished reading the letters written here and I must say, that it makes me feel very sad. So much pain and lost time spent in a system that does not seemingly care about its members (no compassion) but only about "the system" and themselves. Our all knowing God, our God who created the heavens and the earth, being put into a little box where men are trying to control Him! I was raised from birth in the 2x2's, have a brother and sister and some nieces and nephews still in the system. I, never belonged, but the effects of this religion has never left me, suffering from anxiety and panic attacks for most of my adult life and leaving me with no desire to learn about Christianity. It wasn't until my husband's long illness and then his death that out of the depths of depression and hopelessness, I realized that I was but an empty vessel so in need of a savior.
A couple of days ago I attended a funeral of a girlhood friend. She, like me, had been raised in the 2x2 system. Though, she like me, did not profess, she was visited by sister workers after she had entered a nursing home with M.S. After having accepted Jesus as my personal savior (the last 6 years) and reading and learning and having fellowship with Christians, I really heard an empty sermon being preached and a different Jesus being preached! I wondered when the worker stated that (the deceased) had asked them, "How do I go about getting this salvation thing?" and their reply to her was just pray and read your bible, why they didn't take their bible and show her - Romans 10:9-13, which so clearly would have answered her question - if indeed, she did ask that question!
I do have an example of an excommunication of a young man, which happened sometime in the early 90's. Before I write about it, I want to refresh my memory (via correspondence at that time), to insure accuracy as much as possible.
Thank you all for your support - which you give me by your "posts", recollections, and for just being there!
mirb
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Post by recentarriver on Jan 21, 2008 19:52:24 GMT -5
Hi Mirb
Welcome to this board. The folks here have been a big (actually immeasurable) help to me. I feel like this is a community support group of sorts and I have been encouraged and reassured many times.
I hope that you can find the joy and peace that are within reach of us all.
Feel free to PM me anytime. RA
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Brenda
Senior Member
Posts: 652
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Post by Brenda on Feb 13, 2008 22:34:20 GMT -5
welcome mirb-- I left of my own accord-- but I bet I would not be welcomed back as vocal as I have been-- lol
glad to have you hear and would love to hear your story
Brenda
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Brenda
Senior Member
Posts: 652
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Post by Brenda on Feb 13, 2008 22:47:59 GMT -5
Do you honestly see this happening Brick?
I dont -- but I have been out since 99-- but I am around my mom and I dont see it happening.
BJ
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Post by Brick on Feb 14, 2008 3:59:31 GMT -5
Is it happening? Not in any formal way. But in some locations, members are taking more responsibility and there is more of a sense of cooperation with the workers than bending to their will. Recently, I heard a convention owner discussing with another convention owner the need of unifying and working together to solve their problems. I don't know that it is happening yet, but people are looking at it and thinking about it. And that is always the precurser to action.
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Post by 30yearslater on Feb 27, 2008 3:38:59 GMT -5
Actually being told not to speak or pray in meetings was a Blessing from Above. I asked God as I searched for a place for me to worship for a literal sign....And now when the Holy Spirit is present my body rolls with Holy Ghost goose bumps and I am grateful. I am what is or was called 3rd generation. I believed I was going to hell, not good enough for God, that as I was told"God would never speak to me again" and numerous other awful things that did not prepare me for the world. It is now 30 years later and I just found a Christian group called Newlife and I love it and GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD.
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Post by 30yearslater on Feb 27, 2008 3:49:34 GMT -5
A worker once told me in the 80's that "To mention anothers sin is to commit that sin." Figure it like this now " it is why it is the SECRET SECT "Ignorance is Bliss" is another one I heard growing up in a good professing home...Boy did that one prove to be a bad one when I entered the world because I was ignorant.
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harborlight
Junior Member
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace"...1 Cor 14
Posts: 159
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Post by harborlight on Feb 27, 2008 10:34:15 GMT -5
Welcome, 30yearslater! Do you mind if I ask...why were you asked not to give part in the meetings?
HL
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Post by bluejay on Feb 27, 2008 15:41:32 GMT -5
30yearslater said in part :
Holy Ghost goose bumps .... I've never heard this expression before, but I do know what you mean! ;D
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Post by 30yearslater on Feb 27, 2008 16:27:41 GMT -5
Hi When I left home at 17 and worked and finished school my brother and sister and cousins were not allowed to speak to me or see me. I never intended to leave the truth at that point I just needed away from the oppression. Later in life I came back and was baptized. I was at convention in Milltown wa. and because of marriage and remarriage{ even though my new husband had just professed} Everett Swanson called a meeting and my cousin who is a worker in Cananda came to me and said you are being asked not to speak or pray at any meeting. My husband being new really did not like the way this all happened and we left and since separated. I think we would have been okay if I could have been able to worship in another church with him but this is a very hard thing. Let alone how people you have known your entire life including relatives just stop talking to you. Thanks I hope this answers your ?
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harborlight
Junior Member
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace"...1 Cor 14
Posts: 159
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Post by harborlight on Mar 1, 2008 11:58:21 GMT -5
30 years:
This is so sad....just when people need the support of friends and family the most, they are often shunned. One thing I've noticed about the hard-core workers, is that they assume that because they have sacrificed "all" for the ministry, that we should be able to live without the things they have given up. Such as an intimate marital relationship. Not everyone is wired the same! Aren't we thankful that God our creator understands us.
Blessings,
Harborlight
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Post by 30yearslater on Mar 5, 2008 2:48:42 GMT -5
Harborlight Thank You Since I log in now I was just facinated of all the things to read here..... I was asked recently in a class what was the worst thing that ever happened to me and I said being shunned. Then asked what did you learn from it. My answer was God Loves Me.. The sadest thing to me is my parents adopted us kids. And because of all this legalism and abuse suggested by a worker all three of us are not in the truth and have no communications or closeness. More than money in birthday cards I wish my folks new what a good person I am, and what I have done,and all the friends I've made and most of all The Love of God and THe real Joy in real Worship. I also wished they knew all belivers will be in heaven someday ...PRAISE GOD
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Post by pianoman on Jun 5, 2008 9:37:07 GMT -5
To answer your question, I am another "victim" of excommunication. I was told that I could no longer attend "fellowship meetings" in 1980. This was in Seattle Wa. There was a man there that had some problem that I will never understand, but he felt a need to let the workers know about the speck in my eye, and I will just say that you could have started a lumber mill with the beams in his eyes. I felt that he was like the rest of us, struggling souls trying to do what God asked of us, and Christ showed us. I do not like to judge people as I don't want to be judged the way that I have been judged, but I can look at someone and see if they truely have the spirit and are struggling, or are just self righteous and looking to justify themselves. This man went to the workers and told them so many lies I couldn't believe what I was hearing, when I finally was faced with the acusations. I was not faced by this man and was in a round about way approached and given the boot. The next week, this man was "awarded" a wednesday night bible study in his home. This was and is one of the problems I am having with the "Truth". I have found that the amount of time gives you seniority, that allows you to be believed over a person with less time in, and once you get a reputation, it will follow you for life, whether it is true or real, or not. Also you need to be a good person, before you are saved, so that you can receive the help that should be available to all. Briefly back to this man that was lying about me to the workers, he had so many real targets of things from my past that I was overcoming, with God's help, but he chose the most absurd things for his lies. I read and understood that if you were to be confronted, you were supposed to be confronted by a group of elders/workers and the accuser. The sadest thing to me is that this way is something that could be what Jesus showed us with his life, if there were just a few things that were followed, according to the scripture. Getting close does not count. I would also like to know where the love of Jesus is in all of this. I don't care how long you practice your faith, if you don't have the love that Christ showed us, you have nothing. I have just found out about all of this, and William Ervine, after 55 years of knowing the "Truth" and I am still in shock. I just returned to meetings in 2001, and have experienced that same things that I saw before. I had our "overseer" tell me that he couldn't believe something that I told him that contradicted another man, that had more "seniority" than I have. I still have the reputation, and when I was asking about that, I was spoken to so harshly, that I couldn't believe it. I am one of those fellows that Christ sat and ate with and had fellowship with, the bottom of the barrel. I am greatful that I am that, because I know that Jesus came for me and as long as I keep my eyes on Him, I can't lose out. I have seen cases where people have received help in getting jobs and financial help in certain cases and after 55 years I am in the position to where I need that, and have just asked for help in finding work. I don't want a handout. I have found out that because of my reputation and my poor financial status, I don't qualify for help! It is hard to keep the love of Christ in your heart when you have been abused like I have, but I will fight to keep Him there and love those that despitefully use me. I don't want to put the whole bunch in the same basket, because I think that there are those that really are sincere and know workers and friends that are in that catagory. We don't need to look far in the bible to see that the folks back then had problems too, but Paul addressed those things with love, as he was instructed to by God and I have seen that love lived today. I don't know what the answer is, but throwing the whole thing away doesn't seem to be the answer and starting something new doesn't seem to be the answer either. Love and following Christ is all that I can see to do for now and maybe that is all there is to it. I will not give up. I need to keep my identity hidden for a while, but in time when I am ready, I will reveal it. I know so many of you on here and you won't be too suprised when you find out who I am. Until then, good luck......
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Post by degem on Jun 5, 2008 9:46:06 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing your story with us! Keep that "love and following Christ" in your heart. Best to you and keep encouraged Pianoman! Gem
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 5:30:39 GMT -5
22 years later! For about the first 3 years it was 3 years later, one year at a time, with not a great deal of comprehension, understanding nor even growth. Like trees some of us grow slower than others.
Comprehension and understanding are the result of searching, seeking, knocking and asking. Natural wisdom comes from making mistakes, the result of poor judgment which exists by lack of wisdom! Sometimes we can learn from others mistakes, for we simply do not have time to make them all! But the Lord gives wisdom and doesn't rebuke according to the words in the bible. He indeed is a good source to ask, beg, in fact.
So, after the first three years, it was no longer a matter of just repeating one year at a time over and over. Rather, as I grew more desperate upon my Absolute, I found more and more. Life gets no easier. At least it hasn't for me. However, awareness of Grace and Mercy is more abundant from day to day, making it easier for me to understand the concept of abundant life. It isn't a matter of no mistakes, but one of learning pitfalls are harder to see the further behind one follows a light.
Sometimes we are forced to recognize we need to be closer to the Light and our Lord God, and THEN we understand HIS Grace and Mercy better than ever. We even see dangers and pitfalls more clearly.
Kindest regards to everyone,
Dennis
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Post by maggsmagpie on Mar 14, 2009 21:31:31 GMT -5
I was not asked to leave but because of another incident in my family it was assumed I was sympathic and I knew nothing about it. My experience is just not accepting f&w's were the only people who had a place in heaven which lead to turmoil within myself and unable to take part in meetings and also not attending from time to time untill i did not go any more. Attending another christian church is not an option for me and I have faith in my future and not affraid to die. Other faiths such as moslems, jews, hindus and buddist and the meaning of life itself interest me and I dont discount life after death. Most f&w are good people and are caught up in the culture and I would be the same if I was still there. The only thing is that I was cut off from those who I cared so much for and I dont need two hands to count anyone who cared and no workers ever contacted me. This behaviour is not in line with the teaching of the new testimont. I have joined this forum mainly to meet other ex members and I welcome contact by email and I live in Australia. maggsmagpie
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Post by pianoman on Mar 15, 2009 1:06:38 GMT -5
Well, about nine months have passed since I joined the board here.
I will say this about my excommunication. It is hurtful, because you have done nothing wrong, and were falsely accused, with no recourse.
It makes you angry because you may believe that you are being "removed from the kingdom", when in fact you are being freed from bondage.
I know Dennis is telling the truth, because I got "pinched" by two of the three that gave him the boot.
There was no kindness involved, and the nasty tones, were so unbelievable.
I am glad that after a short return in 2001, and recent exit, I now know that the way to God is on an individual basis, and we will only find God by seeking Him.
Yes, I still have many good friends in the fellowship, and love them dearly, and still keep in touch and have fellowship with them. I actually am a sounding board for a dear friend that is an elder.
I find that forgiving and forgetting is something that too many F&W's can't do.........Pianoman
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Post by midwesterner on Mar 15, 2009 6:25:10 GMT -5
pianoman, I think you hit it on the head when you said there was no kindness involved in the excommunication process. I found that to be true in my case. One worker in particular was the icing on the cake that pushed me out completely. I left about 2 years ago, and do you know to this day, not one worker has even inquired as to what the problem was or if they could help in anyway?? I suppose its those nasty rumors the F&W's so often generate when one does leave the group. They prefer their stories to be one-sided, and I honestly feel that is why 99% of them never try to contact the "fallen" because they are fearful of hearing the "other side" of the story, because it may contradict what they heard from the elders/workers about you! The best to you maggsmagpie. I have found there are alot more "nice, helpful" people OUTSIDE the group than I ever found inside of it. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of sincere and helpful ones, but few and far between, most of what I experienced were ones that worked their own personal agendas. I have met some very encouraging and sincere people on this board that helped me in those first few days of exiting the 2x2 belief system.
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 15, 2009 9:49:18 GMT -5
This thread is a helpful insight to others experienced in leaving/being exed. I believe in all that have shared here there is an overriding message. Freedom to seek a closer more meaningful personal relationship with Jesus without boundaries. Like Dennis says it is not without struggles but Gods Grace is suffecient. Thanks for everyone who has shared and bared their soul to help others who maybe facing some of the same test. Love you all Ken
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Pink
Senior Member
Posts: 411
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Post by Pink on Mar 15, 2009 19:24:24 GMT -5
This thread is a helpful insight to others experienced in leaving/being exed. I believe in all that have shared here there is an overriding message. Freedom to seek a closer more meaningful personal relationship with Jesus without boundaries. Like Dennis says it is not without struggles but Gods Grace is suffecient. Thanks for everyone who has shared and bared their soul to help others who maybe facing some of the same test. Love you all Ken I totally get you here, Ken. The freedom. Yes, the truth will set you free.......ah, the burdens ARE light and the colors...wow! I truly see the peacock in the NBC logo. Technicolor baby!
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Post by pianoman on Mar 15, 2009 23:09:35 GMT -5
Midwesterner, I know what you mean about no one inquiring about you. I was treated the same for the most part, but will have to say that some from my meeting, checked in with me, and remained friendly. This was all done in secret, however, and I think that the fear factor, should one get caught in "consorting with the enemy", drives those that are truly decent to stay away.
The issue of keeping the one side to the story is also a big deal. With one side, there is no right on the other side, simply an " I told you so" attitude. The sad thing is that people that would reach out, can not, because of peer pressure.
We must keep the things of God in our hearts and let the "tradition" pass.........Pianoman
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Post by moralityagain on Jun 22, 2009 22:26:49 GMT -5
Well, excommunicating? which I guess is something like we don't want to talk to you anymore. Myself, I had a visit from the workers who told me that I was a "bad influence" and cordially invited me to not come back. Bad influence? How so? I simply asked questions that they did not want to answer such as "are all the Indians going to hell since they never hear about Jesus and no preachers were there to tell them?" and What about people who lived a long time ago and the Truth did not exist yet? What will happen to them? Did God know he made them and will he give them a chance to go to heaven? So, you will find that if you have a faith that questions not and listen to whatever you are told you will be on the inside of the circle of the anointed and chosen few and not have to be asked to leave or questioned about why you have questions. If you like this group just shut the heck up and do what you are told to and be happy with all of it. Learn to gossip and report the faults of others to the workers. Just try to have potlucks and sings and go to the funerals of people you didn't even like and listen to all the messages about how your day of visitation has come and all you can do is just give of your best to the master and stuff like that. Don't ask questions alright. Otherwise you will get shunned which is another word for excommunicating. No one you knew or loved will be able to talk to you for fear of losing "out" if they do. Losing "out"? What kind of made up nonsense is that? Out and In are places you can be in a given context such as you are "in the house" or you are "outside". You cannot "lose "out" because "out" is not a thing or a place that can be lost or even found for that matter. Neither is "In". Have you ever heard of anyone losing "In". These kinds of made up jargon messages are all a real part of the trying to be within the inner circle and believing that all the world and flesh and devil and everyone else who may be your neighbor or evn friend are all out to "get you" and you just have to not talk to them and resist temptation to do most anything that comes along. Instead you are left with nothing but trying to be submissive and loving only to those who belong to the Truth group. Don't ask anything or you will get the doubting Thomas speech and stuff like that. So what I am offering is harp lessons and another way to give and forget. Essentially, you give me your money and just forget it and for a few bucks a month I will try to teach you the harp even though I do not know how to play it much. But, if you have any doubts about who you give money to in the interest of your salvation, you can just give it to me and I will then pray for you every night and add you to my list of people I pray for. Then, I can maybe send you emails telling of my horrible pain and suffering in trying to spread my message and also a little of the joy I get from finding some others who will give me a place to live and some of their money. So, you see, you may be unwanted and thrown out of some other group but I do not care about your sins and if you go to movies and play cards. Jesus did not play cards I guess but he would have liked it if they had known about it and maybe at the last supper they could have played a few hands. All I care about really is your salvation and also your salivation. So, just send money to me and I will think of you fondly while I spend it on trying to get others to give me their money. You see, I have an idea about having a lot of servants out there who will do pretty much nothing except talk about God a lot and won't have time to work and make a living. so they will need cars and airplane tickets and food and stuff while they try to get money for me to further my gospel. So, just do not question anything alright. I will not talk about money except to mention it in every sermon and about how it is not going to get you into heaven and you can use it there and I sure need it to tell others in the world how to give their money to me so I can talk to them about God and stuff like that. Now money means nothing to us and we don't care at all about it and we will just not ask for it except to say the the harvest is great and the laborers need money and sort of like that. Just meet me on the street or around one of our "Unconventional Grounds" and sort of slip the money to me so that your right foot does not know what the left hand is doing and like that. Trust in the Lord. He will guide you and lead you to give what you can. And he knows what you have alright so don't be fooling around with me here. If you make 100,000 a year God wants you to not worry about the silly tithe thing and the 10% idea or any of that. You really only need about 20 to live on austerely right. God needs the rest and you can just also will your house and properties and other stuff to me and I will help others to find out what you have found out as a result of your willingness to just give hoping for nothing in return. I will try to give you back the nothing in return you have given me your money for and then you will know that I am truly following the words of the Bible.
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