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Post by STEVE on Apr 12, 2008 6:15:16 GMT -5
What changes in the way have you witnessed during your lifetime if you are a member or close th the members of 2x2 worship?
Honest answers please.
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Post by aileen on Apr 12, 2008 14:48:36 GMT -5
stocking colour has changed
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Post by observer on Apr 13, 2008 15:46:09 GMT -5
When we were children workers used to visit our house and stay regularly and for long periods. I felt sorry for our mother later on when this stopped happening. She would onlyget a visit about twice a year and they no longer slept over. She really flet left out by workers, when other families had all the visits. Maybe it was because their houses were more comfortable and nicer.
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changed out of recognition
Guest
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Post by changed out of recognition on Apr 13, 2008 16:46:52 GMT -5
It has changed in outward ideas, for example there is less old fashioned styles being worn.
It has changed in that years ago people didn't display their wealth and show it as they do now, but were more discreet and considered the different ecnomic background of their fellow worshippers. People used to dress down to show solidarity with the poor, lowly saviour and his followers who made themselves poor for the kingdom's sake. Now it is every man for himself.
It has changed in that workers don't use public transport as they used to. We never meet a worker on a train or bus these days.
Workers don't visit around as they used to but they stay with their beswt friends and often ignore some of the members as far as visiting is concerned.
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Post by no change on Apr 14, 2008 17:33:55 GMT -5
the essentials have not changed. same God of love
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Post by human nature on Apr 15, 2008 11:16:28 GMT -5
Human nature is the same and F&Ws are no exception for all that they claim to be under God's control.
People in the developed world have become more selfish on the whole and more selfseeking. You cannot blame workers for following suit.
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Post by Control control on Apr 15, 2008 20:00:13 GMT -5
Whose control?
What control?
They are a wild buch as far as I can see.
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Post by Change Decay on Apr 15, 2008 20:17:04 GMT -5
change and decay in all around...............
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Post by Guessed or on May 10, 2008 15:42:50 GMT -5
change and decay in all around............... I've just had an email from a friend who is a minister whose family are connected with the meetings. As an aside to a discussion we were having, she mentioned her mother had told her the friends are liberated compared to her young days when modesty and plain dress was the norm. It's an inescapable fact that there have been huge changes in recent years. People think nothing of listening to the radio, going to the movies, the theatre, football games and watching television programmes via the internet. A professing friend told me he's not going to get a television, there's no need especially as he's got a large screen for his computer. In Ireland alcohol was taboo but now it is quite common-place for people to drink wine with meals and sit in front of their large monitors with a chilled beer. Young people dress much less modestly than the young people I have seen in other Protestant churches such as Pentecostals, Baptists and Brethren, so while I understand Tommie G's obsession with dress, he's just not getting the right message across to fix the problem.
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Post by ex-teenager on May 11, 2008 4:01:28 GMT -5
change and decay in all around............... I've just had an email from a friend who is a minister whose family are connected with the meetings. As an aside to a discussion we were having, she mentioned her mother had told her the friends are liberated compared to her young days when modesty and plain dress was the norm. It's an inescapable fact that there have been huge changes in recent years. People think nothing of listening to the radio, going to the movies, the theatre, football games and watching television programmes via the internet. A professing friend told me he's not going to get a television, there's no need especially as he's got a large screen for his computer. In Ireland alcohol was taboo but now it is quite common-place for people to drink wine with meals and sit in front of their large monitors with a chilled beer. Young people dress much less modestly than the young people I have seen in other Protestant churches such as Pentecostals, Baptists and Brethren, so while I understand Tommie G's obsession with dress, he's just not getting the right message across to fix the problem. Again my signature comes into play... Ye shall know them by their fruits. I have watched a great film by a young preacher who addresses a crowd at a youth rally in USA. I would love it if all young Christians watched it.
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Post by You are right on May 11, 2008 8:36:55 GMT -5
You are right, all the whinging at the young friends has had no effect, or rather it has had the effect of making the youth go to the absolute other extreme. They are more indecent than their average worldly counterparts and more likely to go to extemes in alcohol and other indulgences, for all that they make wonderful pronouncements and professions in meetings.
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Post by ex-teenager on May 11, 2008 10:46:09 GMT -5
You are right, all the whinging at the young friends has had no effect, or rather it has had the effect of making the youth go to the absolute other extreme. They are more indecent than their average worldly counterparts and more likely to go to extemes in alcohol and other indulgences, for all that they make wonderful pronouncements and professions in meetings. I never quite get the going to meeting and giving a nice testimony then going back to the old way again. You can't fool God.
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Post by Falling Away on May 11, 2008 16:59:41 GMT -5
There appears to have been a remarkable slipping of standards in Ireland in recent years dropping to a level well below that of twenty years ago, or indeed that of similar churches such as the Brethren or Baptists etc today. Attitudes to issues such as music, movies, holidays, hairstyles, radios, the internet and technology appear to have changed completely over the past twenty years leading one to one to make the observaton that this falling away has occurred mainly during Tommy Gamble's watch - I wonder does Mr Gamble accept responsibility for the falling away? Lacking the leadership of Irvine, the charisma of Cooney and the respect of Wilson Reid, I recall that Mr Gamble initially sought to establish his authority in Ireland through the strict enforcement of petty little rules, perhaps not realising that while people may put their external house in order while he was in town, this didn't make a blind bit of difference once he'd gone back to from whence he came. (Perhaps he never did have a sound grasp of the parables?) Women's clothing, football in fermanagh, dating outsiders and television - these were the type of trivial matters with which Mr Gamble sought to secure the kingdom of heaven. Rather than offering spiritual leadership to the flock like previous overseers, Mr Gamble's objective seemed to be to obtain control of the friends perhaps believing (somewhat erroneously as it turns out) that this authoritative approach would prevent the church in Ireand following the same disasterous path as that of America where he'd been previously. I think that he truely believed that the church in America had been lost. I think that he truely belived in his own authority. Why he thought that focussing on such external issues rather than spiritual matters would cure all 2x2 ills is not clear. His sermons on these issues at convention were certainly legendary and became something of a joke among young people to which his response, inevitably, was to deliver further sermons along the lines of 'God is not mocked' (a rather unsubtle warning to those who would dare mock!) Unlike previous overseers, he also appeared to carve out for himself an office in Lisburn, obtained his own personal motor vehicle and set himself up almost permanently in the greater Belfast area. The itinerant ministry established by Irvine didn't appear to be for him. He almost never stayed at our house other than by himself thereby forsaking the long established 2x2 principle where workers travelled together and one acted as a guide for the other. I think that when people saw an unwillingness to uphold long established worker taditions that they may have thought well, why should we be obliged to uphold the standards either? He also permitted workers to carry around laptops while at the same time preaching against computers from the pulpit, while some workers would often be seen driving around in the flashier 2x2 cars while he continued to preach about the willingness of the true servants of God (unlike the clergy) to follow the lowly Jesus way. People noticed these things. He also oversaw one or two strange appointments to positions of seniority both among workers and friends. I know one man who was given a meeting in his home who was known for his staggering inability to remain upright on a night out and another who was made a senior worker whose conversation in the company of young women was nothing short of suggestive. However both men had in common the ability to demonstrate 100% allegiance to him when required to and this trait was obviously important to him. In my opinion none of these things did anything for the credility of the work, the overseer or the church and indeed may well have contributed to the slipping of standards. I'm not sure that he ever tried to deal with the history satisfactorily either although he may have done so in recent years. I'd certainly be interested to hear what his official line is now? Or perhaps he's been reluctant to deal with such a dark issue in the same way that he appeared reluctant to deal with other dark issues such as the rather dark issue below? members.lycos.co.uk/twobytwo/abuse.htm
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Post by 3lzai94 on May 11, 2008 17:53:24 GMT -5
There appears to have been a remarkable slipping of standards in Ireland in recent years dropping to a level well below that of twenty years ago, or indeed that of similar churches such as the Brethren or Baptists etc today. Attitudes to issues such as music, movies, holidays, hairstyles, radios, the internet and technology appear to have changed completely over the past twenty years leading one to one to make the observaton that this falling away has occurred mainly during Tommy Gamble's watch - I wonder does Mr Gamble accept responsibility for the falling away? Lacking the leadership of Irvine, the charisma of Cooney and the respect of Wilson Reid, I recall that Mr Gamble initially sought to establish his authority in Ireland through the strict enforcement of petty little rules, perhaps not realising that while people may put their external house in order while he was in town, this didn't make a blind bit of difference once he'd gone back to from whence he came. (Perhaps he never did have a sound grasp of the parables?) Women's clothing, football in fermanagh, dating outsiders and television - these were the type of trivial matters with which Mr Gamble sought to secure the kingdom of heaven. Rather than offering spiritual leadership to the flock like previous overseers, Mr Gamble's objective seemed to be to obtain control of the friends perhaps believing (somewhat erroneously as it turns out) that this authoritative approach would prevent the church in Ireand following the same disasterous path as that of America where he'd been previously. I think that he truely believed that the church in America had been lost. I think that he truely belived in his own authority. Why he thought that focussing on such external issues rather than spiritual matters would cure all 2x2 ills is not clear. His sermons on these issues at convention were certainly legendary and became something of a joke among young people to which his response, inevitably, was to deliver further sermons along the lines of 'God is not mocked' (a rather unsubtle warning to those who would dare mock!) Unlike previous overseers, he also appeared to carve out for himself an office in Lisburn, obtained his own personal motor vehicle and set himself up almost permanently in the greater Belfast area. The itinerant ministry established by Irvine didn't appear to be for him. He almost never stayed at our house other than by himself thereby forsaking the long established 2x2 principle where workers travelled together and one acted as a guide for the other. I think that when people saw an unwillingness to uphold long established worker taditions that they may have thought well, why should we be obliged to uphold the standards either? He also permitted workers to carry around laptops while at the same time preaching against computers from the pulpit, while some workers would often be seen driving around in the flashier 2x2 cars while he continued to preach about the willingness of the true servants of God (unlike the clergy) to follow the lowly Jesus way. People noticed these things. He also oversaw one or two strange appointments to positions of seniority both among workers and friends. I know one man who was given a meeting in his home who was known for his staggering inability to remain upright on a night out and another who was made a senior worker whose conversation in the company of young women was nothing short of suggestive. However both men had in common the ability to demonstrate 100% allegiance to him when required to and this trait was obviously important to him. In my opinion none of these things did anything for the credility of the work, the overseer or the church and indeed may well have contributed to the slipping of standards. I'm not sure that he ever tried to deal with the history satisfactorily either although he may have done so in recent years. I'd certainly be interested to hear what his official line is now? Or perhaps he's been reluctant to deal with such a dark issue in the same way that he appeared reluctant to deal with other dark issues such as the rather dark issue below? members.lycos.co.uk/twobytwo/abuse.htmOoo! I do wonder who you are? I'm sure we could have some interesting discussions! In response to your post; you make an interesting observation that the decline and well, fall of standards at least, occurred during Mr. Gamble's watch. I've often noticed the reaction to the delivery of the "Split Skirt" sermon from say, Jack Duncan or even Alan Beggs, is quite different to the reaction when it has been delivered by Tommy Gamble. It really is a personality thing and while one can bang on about it being the message rather than the messenger, there are ways of delivering the message that makes one understand that the modesty in all things is for Jesus and not because some grim old man growls in his own inimitable way, that one ought to be modest because he says so. Mr. Gamble has shown on at least two occasions, a reluctance or inability to deal with contentious issues and indeed one worker who wanted to confront a difficult convention ground owner on a matter of perverse deceit, Mr. Gamble instructed the worker to say nothing, don't rock the boat. On another occasion, one unstable worker was left to wreck havoc in an area without any effort made to moderate his behaviour or effort to iron out the resulting upset. And as you have pointed out, Mr. Gamble focuses on the "important" issues of clothing and the internet! You'll be pleased to know that outsider dating is now acceptable - a young lady from Meath is dating a young man from Co. Down and Walter Milligan, the active worker in the field (Jack Duncan is a little too frail for such delicate situations these days) has turned a blind eye to the relationship. The huge parties that were frowned upon are a thing of the past - the same young lady had over 70 at her 21st birthday and as been mentioned before on these boards, the modest weddings are forgotten - now the weddings must be tackier than the tinkers with helicopters and speed boats being de rigeur. Almost enough to tempt me back!
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Post by ex-teenager on May 12, 2008 4:02:03 GMT -5
Ooo! I do wonder who you are? I'm sure we could have some interesting discussions! In response to your post; you make an interesting observation that the decline and well, fall of standards at least, occurred during Mr. Gamble's watch. I've often noticed the reaction to the delivery of the "Split Skirt" sermon from say, Jack Duncan or even Alan Beggs, is quite different to the reaction when it has been delivered by Tommy Gamble. It really is a personality thing and while one can bang on about it being the message rather than the messenger, there are ways of delivering the message that makes one understand that the modesty in all things is for Jesus and not because some grim old man growls in his own inimitable way, that one ought to be modest because he says so. Mr. Gamble has shown on at least two occasions, a reluctance or inability to deal with contentious issues and indeed one worker who wanted to confront a difficult convention ground owner on a matter of perverse deceit, Mr. Gamble instructed the worker to say nothing, don't rock the boat. On another occasion, one unstable worker was left to wreck havoc in an area without any effort made to moderate his behaviour or effort to iron out the resulting upset. And as you have pointed out, Mr. Gamble focuses on the "important" issues of clothing and the internet! You'll be pleased to know that outsider dating is now acceptable - a young lady from Meath is dating a young man from Co. Down and Walter Milligan, the active worker in the field (Jack Duncan is a little too frail for such delicate situations these days) has turned a blind eye to the relationship. The huge parties that were frowned upon are a thing of the past - the same young lady had over 70 at her 21st birthday and as been mentioned before on these boards, the modest weddings are forgotten - now the weddings must be tackier than the tinkers with helicopters and speed boats being de rigeur. Almost enough to tempt me back! Who is this young lady and gentleman... I scratch my head.. and have heard it mentioned before... but my brain cant work it out lol.. intials? curiousity killed the cat!
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Claire
Senior Member
Posts: 489
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Post by Claire on May 12, 2008 4:18:52 GMT -5
I apologise totally and absolutely in advance. No connection with anyone concerned .. it just popped into my head ...
The daughter of the farrier Could find no one to marry her Because, she said, She would not wed A man who could not carry her.
The foolish girl was wrong enough And had to wait quite long enough For as she sat She grew so fat That nobody was strong enough.
/cj blaming it on too much sunshine at the weekend and the sounds from a student beer tent forcing their way in through the double-glazing
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Post by love you on May 17, 2008 18:14:02 GMT -5
Love you Caith!
Keep posting!
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Post by 9qy8luw on May 18, 2008 12:30:12 GMT -5
Teenager,
Bells and bowls. You'll get there!
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Post by ex-teenager on May 22, 2008 15:55:26 GMT -5
Teenager, Bells and bowls. You'll get there! never "heard" of that.. though i know both... seems to be low profile at his end!
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Post by Capital Chick on May 23, 2008 2:53:58 GMT -5
Teenager, Bells and bowls. You'll get there! never "heard" of that.. though i know both... seems to be low profile at his end! O yeh, i heard about that. She stays at his flat wen shes up seeing him . Sorta got out wen his family all were away sking and she was there on her own at the mission. We;re all wondring wen sumone will say sumthing to her.
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Post by Multitiude on May 23, 2008 13:50:24 GMT -5
I don't think it's appropriate to engage in gossip about this couple's relationship on a public forum, particularly when some here obviously know of the participants. Their private life is their concern and none of our business. If you find that you simply can't help yourself then I suggest that you least engage discreetly by private email as 2x2 ears feed on this sort of thing.
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Post by Annal on May 24, 2008 12:48:30 GMT -5
Thank you for your thoughts, Multitude Guest. However, what we discuss is our business, no matter what your views. Sounds like you have not got rid of your mindset and sanctimonious opinions.
You are free to read or not, but please don't come on telling us what we can and cannot share.
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Post by Multitude on May 24, 2008 15:36:48 GMT -5
Annal
Perhaps you should identify yourself and then maybe those who know you could share a few juicy tit bits about your relationship in this pubic forum. Whose flat you're staying over in, what you get up to there, that kind of thing? You'd have no problem with that would you?
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Post by To Multitude on May 24, 2008 16:40:10 GMT -5
Annal Perhaps you should identify yourself and then maybe those who know you could share a few juicy tit bits about your relationship in this pubic forum. Whose flat you're staying over in, what you get up to there, that kind of thing? You'd have no problem with that would you? It's not obvious who the couple are that are being discussed and there has certainly been no reference made as to what they get up to in the flat. One of the couple is sort of in Teenager's age group so that's why he's picked up on it. There is no specific reference to location, name or ocupation so I'd guess their identities are safe from anyone that is interested enough to give it much thought. You are forgetting of course that there is an issue at the heart of this matter and it is that of a professing girl dating a non-professing man without any comment from the workers. The workers in the girl's area are fully aware of what is going on and probably have been from within a month of the relationship starting. They have been at the girl's home on a few occasions when the man was visiting and I'd hardly think they thought he was coming to visit the girl's parents. As for the other issue, I'd heard that before from three different sources (two outsiders, one of whom was put out for dating an outsider and one a recently professed outsider) so I'm fairly sure it's old news as so often happens by the time it reaches me.
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Post by ex-teenager on May 25, 2008 18:23:54 GMT -5
Annal Perhaps you should identify yourself and then maybe those who know you could share a few juicy tit bits about your relationship in this pubic forum. Whose flat you're staying over in, what you get up to there, that kind of thing? You'd have no problem with that would you? It's not obvious who the couple are that are being discussed and there has certainly been no reference made as to what they get up to in the flat. One of the couple is sort of in Teenager's age group so that's why he's picked up on it. There is no specific reference to location, name or ocupation so I'd guess their identities are safe from anyone that is interested enough to give it much thought. You are forgetting of course that there is an issue at the heart of this matter and it is that of a professing girl dating a non-professing man without any comment from the workers. The workers in the girl's area are fully aware of what is going on and probably have been from within a month of the relationship starting. They have been at the girl's home on a few occasions when the man was visiting and I'd hardly think they thought he was coming to visit the girl's parents. As for the other issue, I'd heard that before from three different sources (two outsiders, one of whom was put out for dating an outsider and one a recently professed outsider) so I'm fairly sure it's old news as so often happens by the time it reaches me. Exactly.. its not that long ago since people have been "put out" for marrying, dating etc an outsider!
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Post by Anonymous on May 27, 2008 16:47:32 GMT -5
Although removed by considerable time and location, I got a shock when suddenly the penny dropped and I realised that I knew one of the pair in question. County Meath is where it all began, but where is the Christianity now??? This is not an attack on any of the friends there, but the tones of gossip and slander coming through the e-mails brings back memories.
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Post by None at all on May 29, 2008 7:42:20 GMT -5
Annal Perhaps you should identify yourself and then maybe those who know you could share a few juicy tit bits about your relationship in this pubic forum. Whose flat you're staying over in, what you get up to there, that kind of thing? You'd have no problem with that would you? None at all, Smart Guy. After you in the identification parade. I am datin a muslim on Thursdays, a Hindu at the weekend and a 2x2 Monday to Wednesdays. Any objections?
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Post by the same on May 31, 2008 16:49:31 GMT -5
Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever
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