trying to understand
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Post by trying to understand on Sept 5, 2007 15:00:31 GMT -5
I wonder how anyone would profess in the British Isles as workers are ultra strict on many issues..cameras to convetion, swimming, TVs, radios, etc.
Tommie Gamble and Dennis Fenton must really have this region under tight control.
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Post by teenager unlogged on Sept 5, 2007 16:01:28 GMT -5
I wonder how anyone would profess in the British Isles as workers are ultra strict on many issues..cameras to convetion, swimming, TVs, radios, etc. Tommie Gamble and Dennis Fenton must really have this region under tight control. I took camera to preps and convention, even made a video movie on a couple of occasions. Went swimming anytime I like, both parents have, also know of a couple of workers who did every week. TV's and Radios... hm maybe still an issue with TV but not radio....... as far as i know! Its not as bad as you make it out to be, in my experience. Maybe others have had it different.
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Post by Irisj on Sept 5, 2007 16:43:01 GMT -5
Believe me it is v strict. Radios are frowned on and certainly no tv's. Ladies never wear trousers, make up and jewellery are not allowed. Try to ask questions as to where the scriptural basis is for these rules and you will hit a blank wall.
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Post by Try Harder on Sept 5, 2007 17:11:45 GMT -5
It's been a while now but my recollection of Tommie Gamble is that as far as control was concerned he was a strict enforcer of traditional 2x2 rules. Indeed for a retired gentleman he always appeared to have a distinctly unhealthy obsession with women's clothing - Sunday afternoon in Fermanagh convention provided the annual lecture on God's view of the acceptable dress code for professing women. While he would inevitably cover issues such as make up, jewellery and old fashioned hair styles, he also appeared to have a particular liking for discussing the length of womens' dresses. He certainly didn't always have his eyes focussed firmly on the heavens. Hmm!
As regards television this was big No No and would result in immediate excommunication as would dating a non professing woman, Christian or otherwise. Radio's would also be a no no however no action would be taken in recent years probably as even he would be aware that to do so would risk exposing the ridiculousness of it all. However anyone who claims that radios were positively accpeted should consider carefully whether they ever spied a radio during Sunday morning meeting or found Tommie sprawled upon the sofa listening to Thought for the Day in a professing home. Computers and the evil internet were also preached against at least until a bunch of his workers started appearing with lap tops under their arms in strict adherence to Matthew 10.
The cinema, discos and football matches were also forbidden fruits and would be seriously frowned upon to the extent that you'd get a visit from a worker to remind you that these were not the type of events that a child of God would be found attending. He also had strict rules on weddings to the extent that I believe that he actually thought highly enough of himself to feel he had the right to specify a maximum number of guests who could attend a professing person's wedding. Not I'm sure the Lord was glad that he didn't have Tommie as a guest at the wedding in Caanan - there'd have been none of that turing of water in to wine nonsense. Not exactly one for a good time was our Tommie.
To reflect the triviality of the system I also feel obliged to point out that The Beano (a well known children's comic in the UK) was also fowned upon under Tommie's regime and I distinctly remember incurring the wrath of Comrade Green by purchasing the Beano Annual for the seven year old brother of my professing girlfriend. (Does that guy Green still preach that ridiculous sermon about the important point about the last supper was not that it was held in the Upper Room but rather in the Guest Chamber thereby providing solace for those who held the Sunday morning meeting downstairs?)
My experience is that Tommie exerted complete control and was an enthusiastic enforcer of 2x2 rules - in fairness this was probably due to what I believe was his fear that Ireland would go the way of America (heathens the whole lot of you over there!) and undergo a lowering of the standard. While this was indeed an honourable intention, the rather obvious point he missed was that if the 2x2s were truely guided by God they would not therefore need a retied gentleman to establish a set of man made rules for them to abide by. However as we all know now of course the 2x2 church was made by man for man and that is exactly the reason why the friends require a set of man made rules to abide by and a top guy like Tommie to control them.
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Sept 5, 2007 18:41:51 GMT -5
I wonder how anyone would profess in the British Isles as workers are ultra strict on many issues..cameras to convetion, swimming, TVs, radios, etc. Tommie Gamble and Dennis Fenton must really have this region under tight control. Who's Dennis Fenton? Ive never heard of him. Is he Tommie's new right hand man? I thought Norman Nash was or David Delaney?
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Sept 5, 2007 18:43:24 GMT -5
It's been a while now but my recollection of Tommie Gamble is that as far as control was concerned he was a strict enforcer of traditional 2x2 rules. Indeed for a retired gentleman he always appeared to have a distinctly unhealthy obsession with women's clothing - Sunday afternoon in Fermanagh convention provided the annual lecture on God's view of the acceptable dress code for professing women. While he would inevitably cover issues such as make up, jewellery and old fashioned hair styles, he also appeared to have a particular liking for discussing the length of womens' dresses. He certainly didn't always have his eyes focussed firmly on the heavens. Hmm! As regards television this was big No No and would result in immediate excommunication as would dating a non professing woman, Christian or otherwise. Radio's would also be a no no however no action would be taken in recent years probably as even he would be aware that to do so would risk exposing the ridiculousness of it all. However anyone who claims that radios were positively accpeted should consider carefully whether they ever spied a radio during Sunday morning meeting or found Tommie sprawled upon the sofa listening to Thought for the Day in a professing home. Computers and the evil internet were also preached against at least until a bunch of his workers started appearing with lap tops under their arms in strict adherence to Matthew 10. The cinema, discos and football matches were also forbidden fruits and would be seriously frowned upon to the extent that you'd get a visit from a worker to remind you that these were not the type of events that a child of God would be found attending. He also had strict rules on weddings to the extent that I believe that he actually thought highly enough of himself to feel he had the right to specify a maximum number of guests who could attend a professing person's wedding. Not I'm sure the Lord was glad that he didn't have Tommie as a guest at the wedding in Caanan - there'd have been none of that turing of water in to wine nonsense. Not exactly one for a good time was our Tommie. To reflect the triviality of the system I also feel obliged to point out that The Beano (a well known children's comic in the UK) was also fowned upon under Tommie's regime and I distinctly remember incurring the wrath of Comrade Green by purchasing the Beano Annual for the seven year old brother of my professing girlfriend. (Does that guy Green still preach that ridiculous sermon about the important point about the last supper was not that it was held in the Upper Room but rather in the Guest Chamber thereby providing solace for those who held the Sunday morning meeting downstairs?) My experience is that Tommie exerted complete control and was an enthusiastic enforcer of 2x2 rules - in fairness this was probably due to what I believe was his fear that Ireland would go the way of America (heathens the whole lot of you over there!) and undergo a lowering of the standard. While this was indeed an honourable intention, the rather obvious point he missed was that if the 2x2s were truely guided by God they would not therefore need a retied gentleman to establish a set of man made rules for them to abide by. However as we all know now of course the 2x2 church was made by man for man and that is exactly the reason why the friends require a set of man made rules to abide by and a top guy like Tommie to control them. I thought I heard Tommie was over his "dress" speeches. Women have such a special place in God's kingdom I say.... we are the ones who uphold the banner!!!!! Go girls! Go Tommie!
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Post by A Suggestion on Sept 5, 2007 21:47:45 GMT -5
They could all go to Northern Ireland and meet with the descendants of the folks who left or were kicked out with Edward Cooney. They are free in Christ and are without bitterness or brainwashing.
I was just there with my non-professing mother because I wanted her to be in a conversation with folks who love Jesus as the truth, not the religious traditions of the friends as the truth.
Contact Patricia Roberts the author of the book on Ed Cooney. She's old but sharp as a whip and always completely open to having people over who love Jesus. She's outside of Enniskillen near Crocknacrieve, the original convention grounds which one of her relatives owned.
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Post by sharonhargreaves on Sept 5, 2007 22:24:32 GMT -5
Hey ! Eagle wings! Is this David Delaney related to Ron Delaney?
The 'Irish Jacksons' gave pretty much the same rendition of Tommie Gamble - maker and keeper of 'the rules' -
sharon hargreaves
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Post by sharonhargreaves on Sept 5, 2007 22:27:50 GMT -5
A question for those from England-
Do they still 'discourage' children attending conventions? Relatives of mine said there were hardly any children at the Convention they attended? It was their understanding that children were not encourage to attend?
could anyone vouch it this was a true observation generally speaking?
sharon hargreaves
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Claire
Senior Member
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Post by Claire on Sept 6, 2007 1:44:40 GMT -5
>>Who's Dennis Fenton?
Think "England".
/cj [struggling a bit with memories of sitting at Fermanagh listening to A Platform Talk about slits in ladies' skirts ...]
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Post by ANDREW M on Sept 6, 2007 3:37:38 GMT -5
Hi Sharon,
I cannot comment for that suburb of Scotland which some refer to as "England," but in my experience in Scotland I have never heard of parents being discouraged from taking their children to convention. In fact the reverse is more true. There's hardly a valid acceptable reason for not attending a meeting so it is hard to accept children being discouraged from going to convention.
However, they have a different legal system down south, that confederate state of the UK.
I may be wrong but what you are suggesting may be someone's perception in their attempts to explain a lack of children seen at one or more conventions ?
Things get quite confusing over here, e.g. we have one "Scottish Convention" which is held in England, which is well attended by the Irish (look, let's keep them out of it !)
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Sept 6, 2007 15:30:04 GMT -5
Hey ! Eagle wings! Is this David Delaney related to Ron Delaney? The 'Irish Jacksons' gave pretty much the same rendition of Tommie Gamble - maker and keeper of 'the rules' - sharon hargreaves Hi Sharon! Yes David is Ronnie's first cousin. Dads are brothers (Ernest and Edgar). The Irish jacksons still go to meeting right?
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Post by irish 2 on Sept 6, 2007 16:44:01 GMT -5
I wonder how anyone would profess in the British Isles as workers are ultra strict on many issues..cameras to convetion, swimming, TVs, radios, etc. Tommie Gamble and Dennis Fenton must really have this region under tight control. Who's Dennis Fenton? Ive never heard of him. Is he Tommie's new right hand man? I thought Norman Nash was or David Delaney? Tommie's RH man is Alan Beggs... Norman Nash would be too controversial for the job, I heard him say (within the last couple of years) in special meeting if anyone would give him the chapter and verse where the bible speaks of missions (Gospel meetings) as we have them today he'd love to see it. As Caithleen says, Dennis Fenton is English.
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Sept 6, 2007 18:53:33 GMT -5
Ah yes.. i forgot about little Alan! Norman is quite the fella. I had good conversations with him last year as he was in my brother's field in Wicklow where my mother was staying. He came over the house often and we got into some good conversations! At times I did see a glimmer of light from him but then he'd go back into "tommie speak". Wasnt sure if he was brought home to help Tommie or not. He's very funny and very easy to talk to. So has Dennis been moved over to ireland from England then or is helping out from England? Were there any new kids who offered for the work this year? There always seems to be lots who offer in Ireland.
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Post by ex-teenager on Dec 31, 2007 8:03:32 GMT -5
I think it has been commented on here before that as such there isn't a big difference between whos "boss", though obvious that T.G is in the main role, most of the other male workers do assist. Incl Walter M., Alan B., David D. and Norman. N. (the funny guy ) A yr or so ago, N.N mentioned at conv. that he thought T.G had got over the womens attire as they were now only getting the last wear out of their old clothes... hard to keep your face straight to that one!!!! I know all those brothers personally, and on the most part are quite fun! Incl. Mr T.G. Im surprised at the comment regarding the Beano, as he used to refer to a person I know as looking like a characther from a comic book! Finally yes, there has been a good number offer this yr, but none revealed as yet lol/
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Post by freespirit on Dec 31, 2007 11:39:12 GMT -5
I thought I heard Tommie was over his "dress" speeches. Women have such a special place in God's kingdom I say.... we are the ones who uphold the banner!!!!! Go girls! Go Tommie! well, it's good to be special, but if our standard is love, if our standard is truth, if our standard is Jesus... then men have as much a part in that as anyone else. All the same, I'll try to do my part, Tommie. I'll keep praying. I'll keep believing in God. I'll keep asking God for how to live my life. And, definitely, I'll keep asking God to fix the stuff in me that needs fixed. And when somebody at work or school or on a dais or on the Internet flops down some new-fangled concocted, convoluted weird idea on how to run my life, I'll take the matter to God and let Him judge what's best for me. Because, I know that when I'm right or when I'm wrong, God's judgment is always best. And I definitely don't want to live my life being blown this way and that by people's opinions. So, thanks for the tip, Tommie. peace, freespirit
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Post by no wonder on Dec 31, 2007 12:26:05 GMT -5
I wonder how anyone would profess in the British Isles as workers are ultra strict on many issues..cameras to convetion, swimming, TVs, radios, etc. Tommie Gamble and Dennis Fenton must really have this region under tight control. I'll bet you wonder how anyone would do anything that you wouldn't do. Wonder on. Some day you may come to the realization that there are a lot of people in this big world that are not like you and me. They are willing to do things that we are not willing to do, such as allowing other human beings to tell them how they should live. I've quit wondering about them. It's all about choices. They are not bound by law to submitt to these self appointed dictators. They must be getting something out of it, or they wouldn't stand for it.
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Post by First on Jan 1, 2008 6:10:20 GMT -5
When I first came to the UK things were ULTRA STRICT... Compared to what I was used to... But then some things were aloud which wouldn't of been back home. No radio - - but many of the friends did anyway. Even some of the very strict friends did. They said it was ok if listening to hymns or classical music. They even had a stereo in there home which they used to listen to CDs and stuff. No TVs - - and again many do. It's a lot less then if you didn't have the control over you of the friends and workers, but hey is that such a bad thing. It is not uncommon to sit around with the friends and talk about what movies you have seen or music you listen to. Especially these days with the computer where just about anything is downloadable onto your computer. No pants. Ya that was a bit tough at first. I met many girls who weren't aloud certain sports and things because they had to were pants to play them. But then I met many who did. Even if it was just for certain occasions where you absolutely had to were pants. I got told off by a worker for wearing pants to university. Oh well..... I wasn't the only doing it I can tell you that for sure. Over hear people drink alochol. This would have been absolutely unacceptable back home, but this is more a cultural difference then anything. They do not go out and get roasted, they just have glass of wine for dinner. They even use real wine in the meetings. And christmas. People were very open about buying christmas pressies, and celebrating christmas. They meeting home even had a picture of there kiddies on santies lap. So strict on some things I suppose. Doesn't mean the majority of the massess don't go out and do it anyway. Less strict (or should i say realistic on other issues)...... As far as camera's go. I only ran into that rule for the first time this year at a spanish convention. Very interesting. I think it was the first year they were enforcing it. I don't know why the sudden change.
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Post by LSMND on Jan 1, 2008 7:21:46 GMT -5
Norman Nash is off line and not just off line as far as the meetings go. He has a very peculiar interpretation of some passages in the Bible and has the unfortunate penchant for glorifying himself and his companion - at least when I had any dealings with him. He sees women as second class citizens - to be seen and not heard and to serve men as their superiors. He is quite happy for women to pick up the bill for lunch and to walk through a door in front of a woman though. I am reasonably reliably informed that the aforementioned Mr. Greene harbours doubts about Nash's grip on doctrine and interpretation of the Scriptures and I have been told that some of the older sister workers view him similarly. Nash was given a young (and very impressionable) companion when he first returned from S. America but left such a trail of destruction in the field that he was sent to Wicklow the following year with a very senior and steady worker to presumably try to "modify" Nash's behaviour. I can't say it has worked but I have heard that he does preach the oddest things from the platform at convention. I haven't heard him myself obviously. I can understand why some (many) might be impressed with Nash initially and I confess to being one who was greatly pleased that he was destined for our area but unfortunately Nash's human nature was guiding him and a great deal of damage was done in the area. For some reason there was no investigation into his actions and decisions which presumably were sanctioned by Gamble and Beggs and the situation will remain as it is now. I think I've seen this referred to somewhere as the worker's habit of "shooting their wounded". I've digressed: the post is about freedom in the British Isles - radios are present if not entirely obvious on CD players that are to be found in many younger professing peoples' homes. Cameras at convention - never heard of a ban as there is usually a fuss made when the Workers' picture is taken and elbows are sharpened to enable one to get the perfect head-on view. Televisions are not permitted, trousers on women are not permitted and pants, though I've not known anyone to look, are probably expected . Short hair is not permitted and while buns are not de rigeur, hair must be tied back although some rebellious people do not tie their hair back. Swimming? Many people swim and while bikinis are not worn on the beaches in the British Isles, girls do wear them (and some go topless - gasp!) on their hoi polloi sun holidays to Ibizia and the like. Football is played on a weekly basis and the workers know about it and presumably accept it. Women do not play but sometimes girls will watch. (An interesting aside - a chap called Mcminn organises an annual football match in Northern Ireland and it costs him about £120.00 to hire the facilities. He charges the participants (invitation only) twice what he should and pockets the profit. Is this ethical?) Growing up I wore trousers round home all the time, even if there were workers there. I rode horses and was not in possession of a sidesaddle so had to wear trousers or jodhpurs and very comfortable they were too. I think by and large the younger professing people are doing more and more what they please and while the girls don't wear trousers, some wear very short skirts and have bare mid-riffs though I think this more the case in Ireland than in England/Wales and Scotland. There was always the impression that the standard was higher across the water than in Ireland and Fermanagh was considered to have the lowest standards in Ireland (sorry to anyone from there reading this but I feel qualified to comment given that my roots are in Fermanagh .) There is a very real sense that the meetings in Ireland are becoming more like a "religion" and that young people are professing simply because it is what is expected of them. Many conversations I have with contemporaries and younger acquaintances reveal an astonishing lack of knowledge much less understanding of the Bible and a real sense of doing what they do because "that's they way professing people do it". A far cry from the zeal and searching of the scriptures (regardless of the interpretation) that occupied our great grandparents/grandparents etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 7:53:07 GMT -5
LSMND wrote :
There was always the impression that the standard was higher across the water than in Ireland and Fermanagh was considered to have the lowest standards in Ireland (sorry to anyone from there reading this but I feel qualified to comment given that my roots are in Fermanagh .)
I have to concur with this to some degree. Back in the early 1980's a professing family with three children moved into our area from N. Ireland. They were a very nice, hospitable family.
However, it wasn't long before tongues were wagging. At that time it was a big "no, no" thing to do anything after a Sunday AM meeting except bury yourself in the Bible and prepare for the PM meeting. This family would shoot off to different "worldly" events, which raised the eyebrows and remarks like "we'd never have got away with that" and so on.
However, this did not prevent this family from being accepted. In fact their house was a main refuge for the Workers when in the area.
If this post is to criticise anything, it is the destructive strictness which predominated everything in our part of the world decades ago, which materialised in very few of the offspring ever showing any interest in meetings. Perhaps they had it right in Ireland, or at least more right than in Scotland ?
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Post by heal on Jan 1, 2008 9:25:34 GMT -5
I wonder how anyone would profess in the British Isles as workers are ultra strict on many issues..cameras to convetion, swimming, TVs, radios, etc. Tommie Gamble and Dennis Fenton must really have this region under tight control. I took camera to preps and convention, even made a video movie on a couple of occasions. Went swimming anytime I like, both parents have, also know of a couple of workers who did every week. TV's and Radios... hm maybe still an issue with TV but not radio....... as far as i know! Its not as bad as you make it out to be, in my experience. Maybe others have had it different. Some 2x2 farmers listen to radio for market prices
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Post by aileen on Jan 1, 2008 11:08:37 GMT -5
Living in the UK seems to be far less subject to rules and regulations than the US. I've travelled all over the UK and the rules that some say exist do not. Its amazing how people dream up this stuff just to denigrate our fellowship.
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Post by ex-teenager on Jan 1, 2008 11:11:48 GMT -5
LSMND - What distruction do you refer to?
Also I have left a post for you under... the topic...
Kicked out of The Truth for marrying an outsider
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Post by Iilene on Jan 1, 2008 11:11:52 GMT -5
~~Aileen, what a lovely name you have~~~Iilene
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Post by Matt on Jan 1, 2008 11:22:13 GMT -5
Aileen
It's so easy to make sweeping statements such as this without backing them up with any substance.
What rules precisely do not exist?
How extensively have you travelled in the uk and how does it compare with the US?
I understood that within the US there were many different standards and that Tommy Gamble is on record as having said that he feared that the standards in Ireland would slip in the same manner as standards had slipped in America. This hardly indicates that the rules are tighter in America.
By the way are you saying that it wouldn't be out of the ordinary in the UK to sit down to a meal with workers in a professing household where the women wore jeans, a television was in the corner and alcohol was consumed over a discussion about the latest films? Of course not! The rules are there and everyone knows it. Some however prefer to pledge allegiance to the old worker adage "we don't have any rules" nonsense which like their foundation theory has been found ever so wanting.
Matt
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Post by man on Jan 1, 2008 11:50:34 GMT -5
Wow. To see some of this stuff in writing just seems to clinch it for how RIDICULOUS it all is. "radios are present if not entirely obvious on cd players that are to be found in younger professing peoples' homes". As if this is an obscene object or something and it's very presence will keep someone out of heaven and especially if someone dares listen what spews forth from the obscene object unless it is a favored CD from a droning worker. UGH. I mean no disrespect to the one who posted this. That's not what this is about. I know all these factors to be true and those who poo-poo these notions are those who do not have a "revelation" and so you are left alone for the time being. Well, I cannot write what I feel. But i also know that sexual organs are present if not entirely obvious on my body but I can decide who turns them on if they are turned on at all. UGHHH
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 11:53:19 GMT -5
Aileen wrote :
I've travelled all over the UK and the rules that some say exist do not. Its amazing how people dream up this stuff just to denigrate our fellowship.
Such statements would be more accurate if you have lived in the way in the UK for many years and had several generations of professing relatives behind you. Basing such sweeping assertions upon a travelling analysis is shakey at best.
Over the last two-three decades there has been in my part of the world at any rate, a very much superficial relaxing of the expectations and standards, which may well give an itinerant examiner a false impression of the underlying solid belief base. This undercurrent only becomes obvious when a person falls foul of the system or has issues which need addressed. Those who are lucky enough to have avoided such a circumstance will be blissfully unaware of the dark side and in fact are likely to proclaim that such a thing does not exist.
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Post by aileen on Jan 1, 2008 12:38:05 GMT -5
Ram wrote...
Such statements would be more accurate if you have lived in the way in the UK for many years and had several generations of professing relatives behind you. Basing such sweeping assertions upon a travelling analysis is shakey at best.
I have lived in UK all my life (approx "many" years), my grandparents professed. I don't sweep assertions thanks.
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