Apples
Junior Member
Posts: 153
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Post by Apples on Dec 9, 2004 8:27:12 GMT -5
Please. We can see how there is variation within the dog kind from poodles to great danes, however that is not proof of dogs turning into cows. Dogs are all the same species ( Canis lupus), that is, they can interbreed. Domestic dogs are classified into the subspecies of familiaris. Subspecies divides species into groupings generally based on geographic location rather than on genetic differences. When you suggest dogs begetting cows you are not suggesting a species change. To be fair, no one who believes in evolution thinks an animal in one order, like a dog, (order Carnivora) will suddenly and spontaneously change into an animal of another order, like a cow (order Artiodactyla). There are numerous examples of animals that have evolved over a short period of time to a point where they can no longer interbreed. The Geckos and Cicadas in New Zealand demonstrate how a wide variety of species have evolved from a limited number of starting points. The availability of DNA analysis has enabled the the origin of species to be traced with a much higher degree of accuracy than before. This is not really a god issue but rather the way things come to be. There are species alive today that did not exist 100 years ago. Where did they come from? I believe you are in error here, Robb. According to the definition placed on macroevolution by the creationists it is large-scale evolution occurring over time that results in the formation of new taxonomic groups. A new species would be a new taxonomic group. While there may be only slight visible changes to the organism, the fact that they can no longer interbreed does indicate they are a new species. A species marks the boundary between populations of organisms rather than between individuals. Because related species are not absolutely permanent (mainly because all species are evolving), a precise definition of the term is difficult. On the basis of genetics, scientists now include in a species all individuals that are potentially or actually capable of interbreeding and that share the same gene pool. One of the problems is that creationists often pesent an inaccurate verion of evolution and then point out the problems it represents and use it as 'proof' that it is a false theory, e.g, no one has seen a dog turn into a cow. No one has seen it nor has any evolutionist ever suggested it would happen. apples
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Dawn
Senior Member
Posts: 785
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Post by Dawn on Dec 9, 2004 10:51:12 GMT -5
Robb,
Interesting jumping ship site, but not very convincing. You say that evolution requires a presupposition that there is no God, but your site states that science itself sprung from a christian culture, and I am aware that Darwin was a christian who saw no conflict between his faith and his theory. He was a scientist who was reporting his observations. Truth is truth.
Dr Allan was only converted to creationism when he started to go to a "different church". This does not mean that before he changed churches, when he was a 40-year evolutionist, that he presupposed the non-existence of God.
It is not necessary for God to be nonexistent for evolution to be true.
It is the idea that the Bible is the literal true and unerring word of God that is at the root of your need to construct elaborate fantasies to validate your faith. If you used scientific method to observe the Bible you would have no choice but to come to the conclusion that every word of it is not literally true.
This does not disprove God, and why would it? It only means that the Bible was written, edited and compiled from many different sources by men. Historical fact. Again, this need not interrupt your faith. If you believe in God, why should you need every word of ancient text to be true in order to validate that belief?
As humans we are naturally curious. And of course we want to know where we came from. Every ancient culture has a myth explaining our existence, and indeed we are still curious enough today that we study DNA, dig up fossils, study geology, and study religion.
The men who lived in the culture from which the pentateuch came believed, for example, that the sky was a solid object like a dish, that the earth was flat and square, and that the winds were controlled by demon spirits. We are pretty sure at this point in our history that these things are not true, yet some of us still cling to the idea of literal creation from dust, literal eden, and the forbidden literal tree of knowledge, all of which are obviously valuable as cultural history, all of which are very interesting symbolism.
Again, I must stress that I have no wish to shake your faith or anyone else's. I do find your blatant disregard of the actual facts, your seeming need for them not to be true lest there be no God, a little disquieting.
Respectfully,
Meg
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Post by botany on Dec 9, 2004 13:14:29 GMT -5
Andy, Do you know where your little bear originates from? Dawn dawn, all i know is the grateful dead uses them. what info can you provide? andy
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Post by botany on Dec 9, 2004 13:19:56 GMT -5
No, it is assumed by some that the layers indicate many different eras. However, actual eye witness evidence from Mt. St. Helen shows how many layers are formed in a very short period of time (during a catostrophic event), not millions of years. Of course this evidence cannot be accepted by evolutionists because it does not fit in with their presuppositions which demand millions of years in order to facilitate their theory of evolution. Again same evidence, different conclusions based upon different presuppostions. Robb A volcano eruption equals a flood? Well, I guess you can draw that conclusion. Seems far fetched, but so did the idea of an airplane approximately a hundred years ago. andy
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Dawn
Senior Member
Posts: 785
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Post by Dawn on Dec 9, 2004 13:23:22 GMT -5
Andy, Bear is the nickname of Owsley Stanley, the man who manufactured the LSD for the Electric Koolaid Acid Tests. He went to jail for it, too. www.erowid.org/culture/characters/stanley_owsley/stanley_owsley.shtmlIn the 80's when I was "on tour" I accidentally ran into him. He was a mountain man looking figure at that time, and was selling steal your face belt buckles inside a show in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. He tried to get slick with me ("you're giving off incredible sexual energy"), and I ran fast! But regarding the bear, I always wondered what he thought of the happy little guys, as he's a rather gruff individual himself. On the above website there is a link to his own website. Dawn
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Post by married to one on Dec 9, 2004 13:36:27 GMT -5
This is an interesting lesson in evolution. This thread started off about Arabs and now it has evolved into a discussion on evolution. Our thinking is evolving all the time.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Dec 9, 2004 13:37:21 GMT -5
I am sorry to present an inaccurate version of evolution but it seems to me that big-bang evolutionists are actually suggesting that you and I came form some primortial soup. Sorry, but I don't have enough faith to believe that.
Robb
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Post by Robb Klaty on Dec 9, 2004 13:50:57 GMT -5
Meg. Yes, but how do you know what is true? Just because someone has some theory that fits with your thinking does that make it true?
It's really very simple... In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. The elaborate fantasies come when a person tries to prove that there is no God, but man instead came from soup.
Meg, I am saddened that you actually believe this to be true. If you truly have no presuppositions, then spend some time on the sites I listed earlier, then let me know what you think. You will be amaized at how the evidence increasingly fits the creation model.
I do find your blatant disregard of the actual facts, your seeming need for them not to be true lest there be a God of the Bible, a little disquieting.
Respectfully,
Robb
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Post by Robb Klaty on Dec 9, 2004 13:55:18 GMT -5
Better go read what happened there. You are obviously missing the point. In a nutshell, the eruption caused a large tidal wave type flood which carved out a canyon in a very short time. You mean your professors didn't tell you about this? Robb
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Post by Robb Klaty on Dec 9, 2004 13:57:43 GMT -5
Don't worry about it... it all just happened absent any "intelligent design". ;D
Robb
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Dawn
Senior Member
Posts: 785
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Post by Dawn on Dec 9, 2004 13:59:35 GMT -5
Robb,
Apparently I want there to be no God! Who knew? Really I've said no such thing.
I was hoping for more than just a cut and paste while reversing the terms evolution and creation. Don't you have more? Isn't there some scientific evidence of your opinion you can share to enlighten me?
Dawn
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Dawn
Senior Member
Posts: 785
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Post by Dawn on Dec 9, 2004 14:06:13 GMT -5
Better go read what happened there. You are obviously missing the point. In a nutshell, the eruption caused a large tidal wave type flood which carved out a canyon in a very short time. You mean your professors didn't tell you about this? Robb What happened there, as those of us in the shadow of the mountain remember, is that the explosive eruption melted glaciers. Lots of water in them glaciers. There was certainly a lot of water which caused a flooded area for some time, clogged up the shipping lanes and such. Which canyon did it carve out exactly, though?
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Post by Robb Klaty on Dec 9, 2004 14:07:37 GMT -5
Yes, have you spent much time on the two sites I posted? There is plenty of scientic evidence to be found. I wonder if you really want to be "enlightened".
I don't know if they named it. Maybe they could call it creation canyon. Of course it is only a fraction of the size of the greatest of all natural wonders... the grand canyon. Of course the flood from Mt. St Helen was no where near as catostrophic as Noahs flood either.
I am gonna call it quits for awhile now. It is becoming increasingly time consuming to answer the multitude of evolutionist posters and I can see that this topic probably belongs on the other board anyway. It is obvious that neither one of us is going to change the others faith. Thanks Apples, Andy, Meg, etc. for your posts.
Sorry to have "hijacked" the thread. This thread may now return to its regularly scheduled topic.
Robb
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Apples
Junior Member
Posts: 153
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Post by Apples on Dec 9, 2004 20:41:07 GMT -5
I am sorry to present an inaccurate version of evolution but it seems to me that big-bang evolutionists are actually suggesting that you and I came form some primortial soup. You seem to cling to those inaccurate theories like a drowning man clings to a life ring. I am not so certain that current theories of evolution require an atheist belief. Evolution does not really concern itself with the origin of life but rather the changes that lifeforms undergo. Step back and look at this: A theory that cells developed as a natural event or that there is an omnipotent omniscient being that always has been and created the universe yet was not part of that universe but now is part of it and who exists outside of time. Where is the more elaborate fantasy? There was no tidal wave of any type. It was a combination of mud and melting water. The 'canyon' was more of a gully washed out from layers of ash. Very different from the erosion of solid rock many many times deeper. The definition of scientific would have to be tristed until it screamed to be accurate regarding those sites. I might make the same observation. Having read both sides of this it is clearly not a fair comparison to compare this to the grand canyon. I think canyon and gully could be used interchangably in this case. Canyons, by definition, have steep walls. According to the reports the walls of this 'canyon' were sloped back at about 45 degrees. This is to be expected because of the soft material that the water cut through. Oh that is clear. A flood that covered all of the land would be in the 3-4 mile deep range over the land and as many as 9 miles deep over the Pacific trenches. Once the earth was covered where did the waters recede to that would make any flow at all? apples
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Post by botany on Dec 9, 2004 22:49:19 GMT -5
Robb, I apologize for questioning your linking of the Mount St. Helens eruption(s) and Noah's flood. I realize that they are in fact similar. Volcano eruptions and floods are both natural disasters (disaster in the anthropocentric view that they are "harmful" to the human way of life). However, that is all the similarities I can find after reading through the links you provided. I'm still completely confused how you link the two. But, I guess that's where your faith comes in. Funny thing is, faith doesn't encourage trying to figure out what's going on. Faith is about accepting things that are completely off the wall crazy, without investigating the validity. andy
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Post by botany on Dec 9, 2004 23:28:43 GMT -5
Andy, Do you know where your little bear originates from? Dawn I found this at www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/mleone/web/gdead/faq/dancing-bears.htmlWhere did the Dancing Bears come from? The bears were used on blotter acid produced by Owsley. Owsley's nickname was Bear, the logo is a (registered?) trademark, and it appears in the Bear's Choice cover art. Earlier sightings of the bears suggest that the design may have existed for some time.andy
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Post by HA on Dec 12, 2004 7:53:24 GMT -5
UN peacekeeper's novel up for prize
by Henry McDonald, Sunday December 12, 2004
Martin Malone was so concerned that all Muslims were being portrayed as dangerous fundamentalists that the recently retired UN peacekeeper sat down and wrote a novel. The veteran of Irish UN missions to Lebanon and Iraq has written his third book from the viewpoint of a Shia Muslim who is a liberal with a tortured conscience.
And his story of a Lebanese man grappling with the fact that he witnessed a crime committed against an Irish soldier has landed the soft-spoken, modest Kildare man in the company of literary giants such as Martin Amis, Margaret Atwood and J.M. Coetzee.
Malone's Broken Cedar has been nominated for The International IMPACT Dublin Literary Award alongside globally renowned writers like Anita Brookner and Gunter Grass.
At home in Kildare, the 47-year-old, who survived being shot at and shelled from all sides in Lebanon's wars, explained why he wanted to write the book from the perspective of a Lebanese Muslim.
'I did five tours of duty in Lebanon with the UN so I got to know the people out there,' he said. 'In recent years Muslims have been equated with fundamentalism and violence, which is a totally unfair misrepresentation. I have tried to show a man who is liberal and who wrestles with his conscience, a fully rounded, complex human being.'
Having served as a military policeman investigating crime and corruption in a UN peacekeeping mission, Malone includes a detective/crime theme in his novel.
'The basic plot is that this man who I've called Khalil Abbas is at the end of his life and starts to come to terms with a crime he witnessed many years before. It is set in 1994 when a young Irish soldier comes over to Lebanon and investigates the abduction and murder of his father by a Muslim faction many years before. The main character actually witnessed the incident but for years kept quiet about it. So the thrust of the novel is this man at the end of his life who is trying to put things right,' Malone said.
The central character, Malone explained, was an amalgam of various Lebanese men he encountered on Mingy Street, a strip of shops running alongside the United Nations Forces in Lebanon (Unifil) headquarters at Naqura, close to the Israeli border.
Mingy Street was an arcade of the sacred and the profane with Lebanese traders selling gold, silver, designer watches, clothes, alcohol and porn to blue berets from Unifil.
The narrow strip of shops running parallel to the Unifil headquarters at Naqura close to the Lebanese/Israeli border is the setting for much of the action in Malone's novel.
The ex-MP, however, rejects any attempt to draw parallels between his tale of soldiering with the macho-militarism of novels such as Bravo Two Zero .
'Broken Cedar is as much a psychological thriller as a crime or mystery novel,' he said. 'It probes into the mind of a man who harbours a guilty secret, an innocent who witnessed something terrible done to an Irish peacekeeper and who now has to confront that past.'
Malone's previous book After Kafra also dealt with the legacy of the past in Lebanon. His main protagonist, an Irish UN vet, suffers from post-traumatic disorder the source of which is traced through flashbacks to a violent incident in southern Lebanon.
'What amazes me is that the Irish Defence Forces have been sending troops out to Lebanon since 1978 for peacekeeping duties and there have been hardly any books about it. Thousands of men and women have served out there, yet there is only a tiny amount of literature about the Irish experience out there and its impact afterwards,' he said.
Asked about sharing the same list as literary figures like Amis or Grass, Malone added: 'It's very flattering of course, and I have to say I was stunned when the news came through.'
Apart from Malone's two novels there has been only one, non-fiction, book about the Irish battalion's 25-year history of service to Unifil. More than 40 soldiers were killed in southern Lebanon while on active duty.
Two other Irish novels, Colin McCann's Dancer and Gerard Donovan's Schopenhauer's Telescope have also been long-listed for the €100,000 literary prize.
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004
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Post by HA on Dec 13, 2004 12:45:19 GMT -5
US tapped ElBaradei calls, claim officials
Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington and Ian Traynor in Zagreb
Monday December 13, 2004, The Guardian
The Bush administration has been listening in on telephone conversations between the director of the international nuclear agency and Iranian diplomats with the aim of gathering evidence to remove the UN bureaucrat from his post, it was reported yesterday. With Washington's campaign against the IAEA chief, Dr Mohammad ElBaradei, now in its second year, the administration has acquired dozens of telephone intercepts of such conversations in the hopes of finding evidence of wrongdoing, the Washington Post said. The newspaper quoted three anonymous US government officials as saying that the administration embarked on its eavesdropping mission to collect material that would discredit Dr ElBaradei in his dealings with Tehran in the crisis over its clandestine nuclear programme.
At the IAEA headquarters in Vienna it is taken for granted that Dr ElBaradei's phone calls are tapped. Officials shrug that such activities go with the territory. The CIA had no comment when contacted yesterday.
For the neo-conservatives in the Bush administration, Dr ElBaradei has been an enemy since he exposed the hollowness of Washington's claims about Saddam Hussein's nuclear arsenal during the run-up to the war on Iraq. In recent months, as global efforts to halt Iran's clandestine nuclear programme gathered pace, some US officials who were sceptical of a diplomatic resolution accused Dr ElBaradei of hiding evidence of Tehran's weapons programme from the nuclear watchdog.
Under a deal brokered by Britain, Germany and France, Tehran agreed last month to suspend uranium enrichment. However, Washington has been pressing for Iran to be taken to the UN security council.
State Department hardliners, such as the under secretary for arms control, John Bolton, have openly complained about Dr ElBaradei's differing approach. However, the wire taps produced no clear evidence of inappropriate contact between Dr ElBaradei and officials in Tehran. "Some people think he sounds way too soft on the Iranians, but that's about it," one official told the Post.
The IAEA director has said he intends to seek a third term when his current mandate at the agency expires next summer. Dr ElBaradei, a 20-year veteran of the IAEA, enjoys broad support among the agency's 35-strong executive.
Some experts argued yesterday that Washington would do better to expend its diplomatic capital on urging the IAEA to get tougher on Iran, rather than conducting a covert campaign against its chief. "I think we should be more wholeheartedly supporting the Europeans," Brent Scowcroft, who served as national security adviser for the first President Bush, told CNN yesterday. "I think we have little to lose by reaching out, and trying to draw them [Iran] at least into freezing their programme."
During the run-up to the Iraq war, the nuclear chief was viewed as an obstacle to America's campaign to convince the international community that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction. The feud between Dr ElBaradei and the hawks in the Bush administration flared again during last autumn's US presidential campaign when the nuclear chief pointed out that hundreds of tons of explosives had gone missing from Iraq's nuclear complexes following the US takeover.
Earlier this year the former international development secretary, Clare Short, alleged in a BBC interview that the office of the UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, had been bugged. The UN's former chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix, also told the Guardian he suspected both his UN office and his home were bugged before the Iraq war.
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Post by HA on Dec 13, 2004 12:46:33 GMT -5
Hiding from Goooood Americans .... ;D ;D ;D
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