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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2008 7:23:59 GMT -5
Now that it is a criminal offense to smack a child we need to see how our children's lives are improving. Below are some figures from Australia. (of course we don't blame anti-corporal punishment for these figures, but it would be nice if someone could give us some statistical results from this social experiment.) Some suggest that we don't want to smack our children because we don't have moral boundaries anymore.
About 47% of children now belong to single parent "families" One third of all Australian teachers plan on quitting their profession because of stress with students. Schools increasingly have taken on the role of parenting - such as providing meals and counselling. Homeless children have doubled in the past few years Teenage binge drinking doubled in 6 years One quarter of all girls will be sexually assaulted this year 71% increase in sexual violence against children in 9 years. 25% of teenagers have admitted to alcohol abuse. 30.2% of teenagers have sold, consumed or been offered drugs in the past year 9.5% of students have take cocaine in the past year. Children on Care and Protection Orders have risen about 30% in six years.
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Post by landdownunder on Apr 8, 2008 7:44:58 GMT -5
Yes bert back in the good old days, it was a kid's utopia. They got smacked around the ears, belted, disciplined sometimes just to remind them of a kid's place in life. And a little over a hundred years ago, 14 year olds got sent down the coal mines in Wales. Ah life was good back then for the kids!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2008 7:49:43 GMT -5
We don't want to measure "how hard" a child's life was without the context of how hard life was for all people at that time. Thus coal kids become a red herring, and has nothing to do with the moral standing of those children.
(In Australia we wonder how cruel the authorities were to the convicts, until we realise that the convicts were only marginally worse off, and in many cases, better off, than their free counterparts in England.)
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 8, 2008 7:58:13 GMT -5
Bert I am sure the USA has similar statistics and for me it is just more evidence of the end times.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2008 8:05:51 GMT -5
I'm quite close to today's teenage culture at this time due to my childrens' ages. Regardless of the statistics, I would rather be a teenager today than when I was one a few decades ago.
Today is simply different than decades ago. While there are worse parents today, there are also much better parents today. When I was growing up, the average parent was less involved in their kids' lives and development. Not so today, as I see many great parents out there who are far more involved than ever before. I also know tons of great teens whom I am proud to know.
I think the real truth is that it's the statistics that are better today, they are more refined, more frequent, and the teens answering are more honest. I remember one sex and alchol survey (a very rare event) when I was a teen....just about everyone lied about their activities because of fear of reprisal. Today, they are less likely to hide what they are doing, in fact more likely to embellish it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2008 8:26:45 GMT -5
These sorts of theories, like all theories, have an element of truth to them. The problem is they ignore lots of facts. I suspect they are often made up by social experimenters who are the very people promoting social "progress."
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Post by Your Proposal on Apr 8, 2008 8:28:51 GMT -5
What do you propose to do to solve the situation, bert? Do you think a few good spankings would turn these kids lives around?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2008 8:31:51 GMT -5
What is YOUR proposal?
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Post by My Proposal on Apr 8, 2008 8:37:32 GMT -5
I believe that people, teenagers included, are no worse today than they were 500 yrs ago. People are people. They've always been 'flawed' and always will be. My proposal: maybe you and some members of your meeting could start a youth counseling group, or some other generous act, and help out? Oh yes, I realize that's not the church's job, right? Even you helped one kid turn their life around, it would be worth it, right? And I don't think God would hold it against you.
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Post by to Bert on Apr 8, 2008 8:42:01 GMT -5
Interesting topic title, Bert.
But your post is fairly irrelevant to child abuse. Smacking to discipline isn't child abuse. And neither is statistics on teen homelessness, and alcohol and sexual habits.
Can you provide evidence that smacking a child is a criminal offence in Australia? I believe this is not the case in my state.
Bert, is this (largely unrelated) thread title an attempt to dilute and divert real discussion about child sexual abuse in the 2x2's from other threads?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2008 8:44:18 GMT -5
Hmmm.... not much time for church if you do that. You will need to re-define what church is, ie a more secular, humanist and institutionalized organization - able to compete against other NGO and government agencies for resources. You are going to engage in hefty tithing or taxation, focus more upon money making ventures, have leaders engage in economics and social sciences etc..
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Post by No Hefty Tithing on Apr 8, 2008 8:49:47 GMT -5
Hmmm.... not much time for church if you do that. You will need to re-define what church is, ie a more secular, humanist and institutionalized organization - able to compete against other NGO and government agencies for resources. You are going to engage in hefty tithing or taxation, focus more upon money making ventures, have leaders engage in economics and social sciences etc.. You have meetings twice a week, right? For about an hour each? 2 meetings x 1 hour= 2 hours. There are 168 hours in a week. 168 - 2 = 166. Yes, I can see how you would not have time to help anyone out. No excess tithing would be needed. I'm sure you and your group of friends could get together and come up with a little extra food to hand out to the kids who are down and out in the street, couldn't you? One thing I've noticed about people who claim the youth today are so awful is that they usually aren't the ones who are doing a whole lot to help out. A little less talk and a lot more action.
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Post by Poof on Apr 8, 2008 9:01:13 GMT -5
And *poof*...bert is gone again.
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Post by friend1 on Apr 8, 2008 9:10:40 GMT -5
This is just an observation.
There is a tendency to shift personal responsibilities over to the government because it seems like the most efficient way to do it. But the result is not always what is desired or expected.
Health care is one of those.
Education is another.
Child rearing is on the way.
Since this forum is "pseudo F&W" perhaps it would be good to review some Bible examples concerning this issue.
For example; how did things work out when Samuel was sent to be reared by Eli the priest?
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Post by Not Sure on Apr 8, 2008 9:13:45 GMT -5
How did things work out?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2008 9:52:32 GMT -5
I'm quite close to today's teenage culture at this time due to my childrens' ages. Regardless of the statistics, I would rather be a teenager today than when I was one a few decades ago. Today is simply different than decades ago. While there are worse parents today, there are also much better parents today. When I was growing up, the average parent was less involved in their kids' lives and development. Not so today, as I see many great parents out there who are far more involved than ever before. I also know tons of great teens whom I am proud to know. I think the real truth is that it's the statistics that are better today, they are more refined, more frequent, and the teens answering are more honest. I remember one sex and alchol survey (a very rare event) when I was a teen....just about everyone lied about their activities because of fear of reprisal. Today, they are less likely to hide what they are doing, in fact more likely to embellish it. I agree Clearday -- There are problems for youth today that I didn't have when I was growing up, but much has improved for the better as well. Children are better equiped to live in the world today, than many children were 50 years ago. Life has always involved storms and battles as well as the more beautiful attributes. -- both for children and for adults.
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 8, 2008 12:08:46 GMT -5
Bert as already stated this is an interesting topic. You and I have similar thoughts. What is the answer? Be faithful to God and trust God for your guidance and strength.
Part of the puzzle is that we are a more open society and we love the statistics. I suppose that things could be no different today but I suspect they are. Family values for the most part are in the crapper. Even non church goers had family values in the days I was growing up. These values could have been from neighbor peer pressure which is in the opposite direction today. Homes where Christ is the center life is still good and always will be until the end
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Post by aileen on Apr 8, 2008 14:16:55 GMT -5
with that "Ruddy" PM you've got its no wonder.....
Hmm,, he's here this week, better send him back to the penal colony....
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Post by anti smacking bill on Apr 8, 2008 14:39:01 GMT -5
That's how kids were like before the anti spanking bill, Bert. No research has been done after the anti spanking bill as it has only been in a few months.
The anti smacking bill is in in New Zealand, don't know about Australia. One parent has been prosecuted under the bill and that parent has a history of physically abusing his children...
there are other more affective ways of discipling your children than hitting... learn some parenting skills.....
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Post by landdownunder on Apr 8, 2008 15:08:24 GMT -5
with that "Ruddy" PM you've got its no wonder..... Hmm,, he's here this week, better send him back to the penal colony.... Well Ruddy has got us out of the mess in Iraq which is more than your lot aileen. The days of the empire just like the days of institutionalised abuse of children are long behind us in the advanced independent lands.
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Post by Matt on Apr 8, 2008 16:00:51 GMT -5
Hey landdownunder,
You're not that advanced. You haven't even managed to get your own head of state yet. Still dependant on the old colonial power to provide. Even little Ireland threw the King out more than 70 years ago and it was an integral part of the UK. Goodness knows, the UK itself may even get rid of its own monarchy before you guys do!
Matt
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Post by ex-teenager on Apr 8, 2008 16:25:17 GMT -5
I may not be able to relate to the past.. but from my point of view, having gone through and almost "completed" the teenage years these stats are fairly shocking.
It does seem to be the case that certain things are "getting out of control". Example: Most of my friends when aged 15-16 were able to go out at the weekends and get drunk, and to a lesser extent the other things involved (pre-maretial sex, drugs etc). Some people say its part of growing up stage which may be reasonable, adults should be allowed to make their own decisions... but unhealthy at such a tender age.
Is the break-down of families to blame? yes I think so.
Im in no way saying all, as there were a sizable number who did not, but as the years have went on have begun to. Possibily through peer presure (everyone else does, so I should - for alot of young people this is a big factor).
This also can be applied to "professing" children. I have seen a number get involved in these things and yes continuing to "take part".
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Post by gloryintruth on Apr 8, 2008 18:04:37 GMT -5
Bert,
You raise a really good point. I teach at a school where most of the kids are rude, disrespectful, disobedient and quite obnoxious. Through this experience, I have come to realise the benefits of corporal discipline for children.
1. Children who have never been disciplined have anger issues. They tend to explode violently. They also lack self-discipline. There is a clear, distinguishable and observable difference between kids who have recieved corporal discipline and those which have not - if I begin to get angry with the kids who HAVE been disciplined, they back off. They know they've pushed too far when adults start to get annoyed. They settle down. They get the message. Wouldn't it be great if all kids \ adults could regulate themselves like that? When a police officer is annoyed, or a judge is annoyed, that they settle down.
2. We've delayed the punishment. If a kid body slams a door, and swears at me, walks away laughing when I try to talk to him, I cannot give him a good blow around the head. I need to first identify the student via the Student Information System, write an "incident report", submit it to the Year Co-ordinator, and they deal with it within a day or two. The consequence might be a suspension administered two days after the incident occured.
Does delaying consequences help kids draw a connection between their behaviour and the results? I believe not. Those who think parenting methodologies are just fine really need to go to a public school servicing a working class mining district and take a look for themselves - after all, the working-classes are symptoms of what is still to come for the middle-classes and upper-classes, since working-class mannerisms tend to move up the social ladder.
For example, binge drinking, tattoos, sexually-charged attire, swearing (the "F" word), gambling, pubbing\clubbing and women performing sexual entertainmnets (eg, strippers) were at one time associated almost exclusively with the working-classes. We now find these pastimes and characteristics invading the middle-classes. (Notice the new popularity of tattoos on both men and women these days?)
We live in an age when academics - fired by socialistic equity - draw out of the well for their cultural mores. One newspaper recently described Snoop Dogg (hip hop singer) as a "musical genuis" on par with Beethoven. Only an inhabitant of an ivory tower could have made such a silly statement. Or, academics blame an abstraction ("society") for the problem. In education, its common to hear teachers who've been sworn at, shouted at, had things thrown at them, doors slammed, kids flounce off, to come into their office and say:
"I'm doing something wrong. I need to change what I'm doing. They wouldn't behave like this if I were getting it right."
Self-criticism, self-introspection, self-attack is all authority has left - police, teachers, even politicians. If we were meeting the "needs" of these poor people, they would not treat us like fecal matter on the bottom of their shoe.
Thank the LORD for strict parents, and for instilling a reverence for the Supreme Authority of God Almighty!
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Post by gloryintruth on Apr 8, 2008 18:07:24 GMT -5
Homes where Christ is the center life is still good and always will be until the end.
KEN: I love this quote. Beautifully expressed, and so true. Thanks for the uplift, my friend.
Peace be unto you.
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Post by landdownunder on Apr 8, 2008 18:18:24 GMT -5
Hey landdownunder, You're not that advanced. You haven't even managed to get your own head of state yet. Still dependant on the old colonial power to provide. Even little Ireland threw the King out more than 70 years ago and it was an integral part of the UK. Goodness knows, the UK itself may even get rid of its own monarchy before you guys do! Matt Nah, we're just humouring them, we thrash them so often at cricket and every other ball game that we've gotta keep them onside in the less important areas of life. If they toss old Betty out, she can come & board with Kath and Kim.
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Post by landdownunder on Apr 8, 2008 18:26:50 GMT -5
Bert, You raise a really good point. I teach at a school where most of the kids are rude, disrespectful, disobedient and quite obnoxious. Through this experience, I have come to realise the benefits of corporal discipline for children. GiC I don't envy you in your job! Maybe this is your school? www.abc.net.au/tv/summerheightshigh/#(but you can and undoubtedly are a light in a very dark world)
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Post by gloryintruth on Apr 9, 2008 5:32:12 GMT -5
LANDDOWNUNDER: Imagine 800 Jonahs ranging from 13 - 15. Then you'll begin to get an inkling as to what we deal with on a daily basis!! Actually, as much as I enjoyed Summer Heights High (I purchased it on DVD), it actually depicts school as being much more disciplined than in some cases it really is. Those lower achievers listened in class with hardly a peep!
This is not to say there aren't some excellent government schools, but the Eastern States do a better job at educational standards than WA in my humble opinion. Sadly, we're fast becoming a land of private education - almost 50% of our kids are educated in private schools. Good, old-fashioned Australian, government education is fading away.
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Post by landdownunder on Apr 9, 2008 6:15:47 GMT -5
Imagine 800 Jonahs ranging from 13 - 15. Nope 1 Jonah was fun, 800 would be disaster. You have my empathy. Interesting your comment about WA vs Eastern States. Definitely many good gov't schools over here, but teachers not well paid and standards will quickly fall away. Some principals enforce discipline immediately which I agree with you is very important if it's to be effective. But think of the difference one good teacher (you) can have in such an environment. Chin up mate! BTW I got the DVDs too, you watch 'We Can Be Heroes'? I'm half way thru. Any Mr G's at your school ;D
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