alana
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Post by alana on Apr 3, 2008 18:17:15 GMT -5
Why do so many "religious"people smack their children?
Doesn't child beating and smacking teach children violence?
Can anyone justify child beating in any form?
I feel physically ill when I see a child on the receiving end of abuse.
Even verbal abuse causes long term damage that is unmeasurable. IMO
Agree or Disagree?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2008 19:28:52 GMT -5
hmm, I'll tell you what pa use to say. 'son, this {spanking} hurts me more than its going to hurt you'
funny thing is, at the time, somehow I couldn't grasp that concept! Now, I know exactly what he meant!!
Like you said, it is painful to watch an 'innoscent' child get whacked! hmmm, did he deserve it or not, it still hurts to watch, IMO!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2008 20:47:55 GMT -5
quote - " Why do so many "religious"people smack their children?" Religion and conservative thinking go hand in hand. Spanking is punishment. We can "explain" but sometimes when the explanation was ignored we resort to punishment.
Doesn't child beating and smacking teach children violence? No. I don't believe that. We understand that when our parents are forced to smack us it is different to the school yard bully taking pleasure in hurting us.
Can anyone justify child beating in any form? Yes. I have my own theory that smacking is a form of emotional correction. We can be told not to put our money into risky investments - but if we suffered the pain of losing that money we would take that caution entirely different.
I feel physically ill when I see a child on the receiving end of abuse. Smacking a child and "abuse" are terms lumped together. People will split things when they should be joined, and join them when they are different - for ideological ends.
Even verbal abuse causes long term damage that is unmeasurable. IMO So we don't smack, we don't give "verbal abuse" (whatever that is) and next, we don't send a child to his bedroom. Did you read last week's news about the youth in England?
Agree or Disagree? Strongly disagree. If we can have these social movements can we also have ways to measure their social benefit?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 3, 2008 21:55:28 GMT -5
A wise man once said; "13": Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. "14": Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
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Post by Gene on Apr 3, 2008 23:53:14 GMT -5
They have learned it from the bible.
You know, all stories about a deity who in his care for his children does not stop with corporal punishment, but moves on to capital punishment and then, and THEN -- eternal damnation in a lake of fire with wailing and gnashing of teeth where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched!
In comparison, what's a little spanking now and then?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2008 1:26:45 GMT -5
Most often physical abuse of children has nothing to do with "correction" or with any genuine form of interest in teaching social behavior to the child - It is nothing else than expression of frustration and anger (although this would be denied). Most often in public situations, correctional abuse is simply the result of a selfish effort for parents to distance themselves from a child's behavior that they find embarrassing to themselves as parents.
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Post by Alana on Apr 4, 2008 4:52:42 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be better to create a good relationship and develop trust with a child than to jump in with corporal punishment.
I believe in time it will be banned by law in most countries.
I am curious as to why religious people quote bible in defense of child bashing. Particularly when the same people ignore whole pertions of the Bible that talk about issues such as forgiveness, Grace, 1 cor 13 for example. Can you read that then go smack someone??
Can you imagine by any thing he ever said that Jesus would be inclined to child bash??
Who are we supposed to follow then?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2008 5:44:31 GMT -5
People who correct children in love and concern don't "bash." Repeat, don't "bash." We have had a few cases in this country of people being charged for smacking children in public. I hear of so many cases of parents not knowing (and thus, not caring?) where their children are at night. Maybe the parents ought to be punished.
Again, if we are going to change such social norms, are we going to have generational studies of that generation?
from the Guardian
The latest think-tank report on British teenagers behaving badly, so badly they top the league of worst behaving youth in the Western world... I had to fend off a 'you rumpy pumpying sweet thing, innit' breed of teenager on a night bus. If a child could absorb frighteningly elaborate social skills, he could also be reduced to insulting people as a way of interacting with them, with school, it seems, unable to correct either bias. Hooligans or clever clogs: we have started experiencing a similarly increasing social divide in France. But who are the culprits? All of us who refuse to grow up and take responsibility. The parents, who, in a time of cosmetic surgery hysteria and national binge-drinking, refuse to act like adults, let alone look their age. All of us who refuse to be serious, who dress like teenagers and adopt their jargon. Why would children look up to silly behaving adults? Why should children respect adults whose motto seems to have become: go shopping and be happy? ... Agnes Poirier is the author of Touche: A French Woman's Take on the English
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Post by IllinoisGal on Apr 4, 2008 6:02:22 GMT -5
Child Abuse and spanking are 2 VERY different things. Notice how terms are used to try and magnify and sensationalize things.
Spanking in no way is "child bashing". In fact, youd be surprised how very little spanking is used or some form of discipline.
I started teaching my children from the time they were little how to behave and there are just sometimes they dont get there way. We never had any of those fall in the floor episodes in public.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2008 6:19:06 GMT -5
Spanking is legally defined as child abuse, and is illegal in Sweden as it is in many countries in Europe -- I remember when the law was passed 20 years or so ago, especially the ultra conservatives where really wrought up about it, and predicted the 'fall of Rome' Today Swedish children are not regarded to be either 'more' or ''less' manageable than other children in the world we are living in. To me it has been an imortant marking of the virtue of a non-violent society --
The major problem with the law is some imigrant cultures that have never learned any other way of firmly speaking to their children. They unfortunatley sometimes end up in jail!!! It is regarded as a very serious crime.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2008 6:33:45 GMT -5
I too have been hearing about the fall of Rome since I was a boy. Each social trend (almost always a negative one) has been applauded by self-called progressives as not having brought about the collapse of civilization. But simple observation, a good memory, and reading of the scripture serve to show that our civilization has fallen so far. I see things in the world my progressive contemporaries said would never happen, but when they do in fact come, they are then applauded by the same people. And into this equation I would put children's behavior, the collapse of the churches, the dramatic decline in marriage, drug addiction, terrorism, contempt for authority, and the general rise of the deviant to put down all what was considered respectful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2008 7:26:44 GMT -5
The society that we live in is unquestioningly in the process of change and development continually. Some new dangers and negative tendencies have arisen -- and many extreme injustices and horrible realities have fortunately vanished (or at least become more manageable). The dishonest conservative reasoning that 'everything was better when I was a boy', is a fantasy without much basis in reality. People were neither happier nor more Godly a hundred years ago -- injustice was more rampant and the chance of violent death was greater then than now. Children died younger, were more often exploited, and were far less equal in oppurtunity than the children of today.
I am not denying the fact that there are enormous problems for everyone one to deal with in the 'today' of world history --- but don't try to feed the story that change has all been bad!!! There have been a great host of marvelous developments as well. I am proud of the privelage of bringing up my children in the non-violent environment of our society today. Our society has given them the oppurtunity of a comprehensive education to prepare then for the demands of life, and to prepare them to fend off the social dangers in the world arround them. Our justice system is a long ways from perfect ... but it does insure reasonable protection from some the enormous injustices that were typical of life a hundred years ago.
Quite importantly, this is the world that God has choosen for us to live in --- I firmly believe that God will give my children equal oppurtunity to serve him, as those of a hundred years ago.
For me, the law against child abuse, does protect them in a way as to make this world a better place for them --- and will help them grow up with a greater respect for the virtues of the non-violence that Jesus taught.
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Post by rational on Apr 4, 2008 7:52:22 GMT -5
Why do so many "religious"people smack their children? Doesn't child beating and smacking teach children violence? Can anyone justify child beating in any form? I feel physically ill when I see a child on the receiving end of abuse. Even verbal abuse causes long term damage that is unmeasurable. IMO Agree or Disagree? I am quite certain this could spark a long and heated discussion. It does not equate it to abuse and beating and your use of these terms shows your bias. Spanking is usually defined as corporal punishment that does not cause physical damage to the child. Some go further and state it does not involve any object and never with a closed hand (fist). If the damage goes beyond reddened skin, i.e., black and blue areas, cuts, contusions, broken bones, pulled hair, etc., it is usually classified as abuse. Spanking is not bashing. It is not abuse. It is simply behavior modification through the use of positive punishment. You inflict a level of discomfort (pain and/or humiliation in the case of spanking) immediately in response to the undesired behavior in order to decrease that behavior in the future. Spanking can be defined in any number of ways and those who support it do not want it linked to verbs like "hitting", "striking", "smacking", "slapping", etc. In most cases they would like to use the word "spanking" because it somehow seems to remove the parent from actually having hit their child. It is, however, difficult to define spanking without bringing in the concept that the parent has made contact with the child, with some object, with enough force to cause pain. There is little if any data to show that spanking is any more effective than other methods of behavior modification. Using positive reinforcement to increase the desired behavior rather than positive punishment to extinguish undesired behavior has been demonstrated to produce a longer lasting results. Positive punishment often results in avoidance behavior (continuing the same behavior but doing so in a way not to be detected) rather than reducing or eliminating the undesired behavior. Spanking does raise the question of what the child learns from the parent. Is hitting OK is you are in charge? "Don't hit your sister" <SMACK>. "Don't bite your sister. Do you want to know what that feels like?" <BITE> And the child has to process the interaction. Children thrive on love and attention. If the only time the parents focus on the child is when the child misbehaves, the punishment becomes a form of positive reinforcement and actually increases the undesired behavior. It is better to have the focus of your parents attention for misbehaving than to be ignored. If you run out into the road and your parents run after you and then spank you at least they are acknowledging you are alive, that they are protecting you, and they do not want you dead.
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Post by aileen on Apr 4, 2008 8:03:18 GMT -5
I am an advocate of corporal punishment.
But not of abuse. I think that it is possible to use corporal punishment without abuse, and that it is not abuse to smack a child.
I have had to smack my children once or twice each, but not much more. The point is that they knew (past tense as they're adults now) where the boundaries were, they knew how far they could go in testing them.
There is a problem with inconsistent application of punishment: " You do that again and I'll smack you"..... .... (they repeat the offensive behaviour) "I told you, I'll smack you next time" (and that was the next time, and they repeat it)
"Right, I give up on you...."
and the threat was never made real, so the kid not only gets away with it, but learns that what was said to be a boundary actualy wasn't. It was an empty threat.
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Post by jh62 on Apr 4, 2008 8:07:00 GMT -5
I think the one we should listen to when it comes to child-rearing is the one who has raised a perfect child. Anyone?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2008 8:12:30 GMT -5
Just for the record, remember that absolutely no one defines their spanking as abuse -- however black or blue they may have left the child. It is always done in alleged best interests of the child, (according to the perpetrator).
Many of the kids placed in our home by social services have a history of abuse of some kind or other. I have heard a hundred different defenses against what our government regards as 'child abuse'. "Anything that could or does cause physical pain done with disciplinary motive." But it is a law that is really hard to get around.
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Post by heal logged out on Apr 4, 2008 8:36:38 GMT -5
Most often physical abuse of children has nothing to do with "correction" or with any genuine form of interest in teaching social behavior to the child - It is nothing else than expression of frustration and anger (although this would be denied). Most often in public situations, correctional abuse is simply the result of a selfish effort for parents to distance themselves from a child's behavior that they find embarrassing to themselves as parents. Agree
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Post by aussiegal on Apr 4, 2008 9:45:01 GMT -5
I think the one we should listen to when it comes to child-rearing is the one who has raised a perfect child. Anyone? I had to smile at this one... I just about sat on my hands! I have had to very rarely smack my child - and not enough to leave even a red mark on them. A 2 finger smack on their hand would be about the extent of it! All 3 of my daughters (aged 8, 3 and 1) are quite well behaved though. We do set boundaries... we do have fun as a family... and we do talk to them in ways they understand about WHY they can't do something or other! Of course with a 2 year old going through the "terrible twos" as some refer to it... it can get quite frustrating. But the biggest thing I've found (with my kids) is to be constant and consistent in what you teach them is right and wrong. Don't slack off... and most of all.. .let your kids know that you love them, care for them, and are there for them. Vianne.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 4, 2008 9:53:06 GMT -5
Hi aussiegal!!!! Of course with a 2 year old going through the "terrible twos" as some refer to it... it can get quite frustrating.Boy I know what you mean by that!!! My oldest boy I think has finally gotten through that stage. He just turned 30....... ;D Scott
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Post by aussiegal on Apr 4, 2008 10:05:08 GMT -5
Well goodness gracious gollywoggles gollopollies... I would hope by the age of 30 that he's at least learnt that it gets no attention from you as a parent when he throws himself on the floor with legs and arms flailing?!?!?! (well my 3 year old has grown out of that one thank goodness!) ;D
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Post by rational on Apr 4, 2008 10:13:01 GMT -5
I think the one we should listen to when it comes to child-rearing is the one who has raised a perfect child. Anyone? I didn't raise one but, of course, I was one!
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Post by to edgar on Apr 4, 2008 10:16:54 GMT -5
Just for the record, remember that absolutely no one defines their spanking as abuse Of course not.
And no one defines their income as ill-gotten yet some people clearly steal for "a living".
there is a difference between spanking and abuse EVEN IF abusers want to blur the line
JUST AS
there is a difference between earned income and stolen income EVEN IF theives want to blur the lineSorry edgar, but your point is... well... pointless.
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Post by perfect child on Apr 4, 2008 11:22:54 GMT -5
I think the one we should listen to when it comes to child-rearing is the one who has raised a perfect child. Anyone? Yep, my parents did! ;D
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Post by I did on Apr 4, 2008 11:29:13 GMT -5
I think the one we should listen to when it comes to child-rearing is the one who has raised a perfect child. Anyone? I/we raised five perfect children ! Ok, not quite perfect. We did spank on occation, but I think what made the biggest things were only one warning and fast response. My wife and I quit going to meetings before our youngest was born, I think she was about two when she went to her first Sunday morning meeting. People say she just followed her brothers in and sat down and never said a word. She knew to follow her brothers example. ... and when they weren't being perfect ... I'll be writting a book someday.
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Post by just me on Apr 4, 2008 11:34:12 GMT -5
The same reason non-religious people do Beating, yes. Discipline, no. Beating, no. Discipline, yes.
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alana
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Posts: 267
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Post by alana on Apr 4, 2008 12:04:01 GMT -5
Any form of violence against a child is ABUSE, whether it is called smacking, spanking, hitting, or worse.
Do not deceive yourself that you are not committing violence against a child when you inflict pain deliberately.
Would you do so against an adult without impunity?
So Why do ot to a minor or a child?
Roll on the day when all countries follow Sweden.
Anger management classes should be free for all alongside child rearing classes.
I have seen the terrible results of this kind of discipline over the years and the damage inflicted on the personality, confidence, and ultimately the achievement or lack thereof all in the mistaken name of "spare the rod."
People who constantly smack etc. their children are sadists IMO and should be taken out and given some of their own medicine!!! (with the kids watching) Especially if they bash their kids in meeting.
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alana
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Posts: 267
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Post by alana on Apr 4, 2008 12:05:55 GMT -5
Most often physical abuse of children has nothing to do with "correction" or with any genuine form of interest in teaching social behavior to the child - It is nothing else than expression of frustration and anger (although this would be denied). Most often in public situations, correctional abuse is simply the result of a selfish effort for parents to distance themselves from a child's behavior that they find embarrassing to themselves as parents. You are so right again, Edgar!
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Corporal Punishment
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Post by Corporal Punishment on Apr 4, 2008 12:18:17 GMT -5
People who correct children in love and concern don't "bash." Repeat, don't "bash." We have had a few cases in this country of people being charged for smacking children in public. I hear of so many cases of parents not knowing (and thus, not caring?) where their children are at night. Maybe the parents ought to be punished. Again, if we are going to change such social norms, are we going to have generational studies of that generation? from the Guardian The latest think-tank report on British teenagers behaving badly, so badly they top the league of worst behaving youth in the Western world... I had to fend off a 'you rumpy pumpying sweet thing, innit' breed of teenager on a night bus. If a child could absorb frighteningly elaborate social skills, he could also be reduced to insulting people as a way of interacting with them, with school, it seems, unable to correct either bias. Hooligans or clever clogs: we have started experiencing a similarly increasing social divide in France. But who are the culprits? All of us who refuse to grow up and take responsibility. The parents, who, in a time of cosmetic surgery hysteria and national binge-drinking, refuse to act like adults, let alone look their age. All of us who refuse to be serious, who dress like teenagers and adopt their jargon. Why would children look up to silly behaving adults? Why should children respect adults whose motto seems to have become: go shopping and be happy? ... Agnes Poirier is the author of Touche: A French Woman's Take on the English If Corporal Punishment was the answer it would have never been laid off. Decent People stopped assaulting their offspring because it taught them to be violent. There are other root causes for today'd dilemma in behaviour as stated adult examples would be a start. This post is about religious people assaulting their children and why they do it. I think it is from frustration and pent up anger. Also they have no control in their lives and need to get power in prayer to stop them being so malicious. ( Those who beat their kids)
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