Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 11:34:34 GMT -5
Is there any proof that Isaiah 50:1 , proves that God did divorce Israel mother? It seems the current Jews in Israel , don't know anything about that divorce!
or---- Did God sell his children, to pay a debt that he owed someone?
God didn't owe anyone!
|
|
|
Post by maybe on Apr 2, 2008 12:10:56 GMT -5
This was God mocking them for feeling abandoned?
|
|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 2, 2008 12:43:56 GMT -5
The "proof" I guess is that God (Jesus) remarried a New Jerusalem in Revelation. Unless He is a polygamist.
|
|
|
Post by Sylvestra on Apr 2, 2008 13:02:40 GMT -5
Is there any proof that Isaiah 50:1 , proves that God did divorce Israel mother? It seems the current Jews in Israel , don't know anything about that divorce!
or---- Did God sell his children, to pay a debt that he owed someone?
God didn't owe anyone! First of all, the current Jews in the State of Israel and not from the house of Israel, they are from the house of Judah. God did not divorce the house of Judah, so he did not divorce "the Jews", He divorced Israel. The history of this division is recorded in 1 Kings 11. There you will see that the house of Israel and the house of Judah became to different entities, which was (and is) a permanent situation. As you read through such books as Jeremiah, Ezra, and Nehemiah, you will see these two referred to as "Judah" "Israel" and the house of J. and h.of I. These two were taken into captivity at separate times to different places. The house of Israel never did return to the holy land and they are also the ones that God divorced. Jeremiah gives a number of references to this marriage (Jer. 3:14), and the divorce (Jer. 3:8). In the 8th verse, "Israel" is the jouse of Israel, and her sister Judah is the house of Judah. It is interesting when reading the accounts in Ezra and Nehemiah to keep in mind that the house of Judah was only the tribes of Benjamin, Judah, and some of the Levites. When we keep these facts from Scripture in mind, it certainly helps to properly label (if nothing else) the State of Israel today and to remember that God did not divorce the "Jews". There is never a time (in proper translation) that the house of Israel were called "Jews". "Jews" is a name that came after the "division" and applies only to the house of Judah (Jew for short). Best regards, Edy P.S. These people were "sold" into captivity for their sins. The house of Judah was "sold" to Babylon, and the house of Israel was "sold" to Assyria.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 13:42:50 GMT -5
Is there any proof that Isaiah 50:1 , proves that God did divorce Israel mother? It seems the current Jews in Israel , don't know anything about that divorce!
or---- Did God sell his children, to pay a debt that he owed someone?
God didn't owe anyone! , He divorced Israel. The point God was making in Isaiah 50:1, was they sold themselves into slavery. God did NOT sell them out!
I hope you can comment on the posts I made to Rob on the remarriage thread...I do not think Rob is agreeing with either of us, at this time! Is your position , also a position that another websight would support? If so could you tell me which one.
I will admit....most of my commentary wasnt derived from a websight, but I did google the question ;'did God divorce Israel/Judah?'...and the best answer I could perceive is NO, and Isaiah 50:1 is NOT to be understood as a bill of divorcement from Israels mother, nor a selling out of Israels children!
|
|
|
Post by polygamy on Apr 2, 2008 13:49:06 GMT -5
The "proof" I guess is that God (Jesus) remarried a New Jerusalem in Revelation. Unless He is a polygamist. Now how do I respond to your analyses, dc? I can never tell when I am serious, nor when you are jokin! What is a polygamist, dc? more than one bride, huh? well the ''body/bride of christ'' is a consortium of many many souls, we should ALL just be happy and content to share our bridegroom, dont cha think? and NO, I do not think God ever Got a divorce, either..., but that IS MY OPINION!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 2, 2008 13:58:10 GMT -5
lol. best I can tell from scripture, God married the city which he calls the New Jerusalem. If, now, he also has eyes for her bridesmaids and wedding attendents (your body/bride of christ) then that would make him twice a polygamist. Scary stuff...let's all move to Utah.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 14:05:46 GMT -5
lol. best I can tell from scripture, God married the city which he calls the New Jerusalem. If, now, he also has eyes for her bridesmaids and wedding attendents (your body/bride of christ) then that would make him twice a polygamist. Scary stuff...let's all move to Utah. not an easy concept! I don't think God needs any more labels! Actuallt Solomon was a polygamist, as was David. But that was according to their time and culture...most of the men at that time and age , were either serving in the army or had been killed off! right?
|
|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 2, 2008 14:19:21 GMT -5
Actuallt Solomon was a polygamist, as was David. And very good at it, too, they were! How do we know Jesus was a descendent of David? It has been said that with a little calculation and random marriages, we can show that surely every Jew at the time of Jesus was a descendent of David. (of course, this allows tracing through mothers as well as fathers...can't remember whether it was Luke or Matthew that included several women in the lineage.)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 14:23:43 GMT -5
Actuallt Solomon was a polygamist, as was David. And very good at it, too, they were! How do we know Jesus was a descendent of David? It has been said that with a little calculation and random marriages, we can show that surely every Jew at the time of Jesus was a descendent of David. (of course, this allows tracing through mothers as well as fathers...can't remember whether it was Luke or Matthew that included several women in the lineage.) then probably by default that mosy Jews consider themselves to be children of David, eh? [taking the better of the two ]
|
|
|
Post by sorry ooops on Apr 2, 2008 15:40:25 GMT -5
And very good at it, too, they were! How do we know Jesus was a descendent of David? It has been said that with a little calculation and random marriages, we can show that surely every Jew at the time of Jesus was a descendent of David. (of course, this allows tracing through mothers as well as fathers...can't remember whether it was Luke or Matthew that included several women in the lineage.) then probably by default that most Jews consider themselves to be children of David, eh? [taking the better of the two ][/ sorry for the typo!!! I meant most NOT mosy..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 15:55:45 GMT -5
There is never a time (in proper translation) that the house of Israel were called "Jews". "Jews" is a name that came after the "division" and applies only to the house of Judah (Jew for short) WHERE in the world do you come up with these ideas, edy? Please explain if anyone else shares this opinion,? It seemed deeply flawed...... Mathew 15:24 says that Jesus only came for the house of Israel, and yet, you say they did not exist at Jesus time? I am confused how anyone could come up with that explanation. [nor can I find a website]
|
|
|
Post by Sylvestra on Apr 2, 2008 16:28:31 GMT -5
There is never a time (in proper translation) that the house of Israel were called "Jews". "Jews" is a name that came after the "division" and applies only to the house of Judah (Jew for short) WHERE in the world do you come up with these ideas, edy? Please explain if anyone else shares this opinion,? It seemed deeply flawed...... Mathew 15:24 says that Jesus only came for the house of Israel, and yet, you say they did not exist at Jesus time? I am confused how anyone could come up with that explanation. [nor can I find a website] How is this "deeply flawed"? The fact that the "house of Israel" was still in the areas ABOVE the holy land is the reason Jesus sent his first 12 out to go without worldly goods (etc.) so they could get the word out quickly to the house of Israel that their messiah had come to bring them back into relationship with him. Get yourself a good bible atlas and follow the migrations during the periods of the captivities through Ezra, Nehemiah, and through Jesus day. It will give you bible references for the locations of all of these people. There is no record in scripture that the house of Israel ever returned......it is only the house of Judah that is on record. There is record, however, in Josephus works that tell of the house of Israel being on the "other side" (he, I believe, was more specific) of the Euphrates at the time of his writings. So, where do I get these ideas? They are pretty well recorded. Does anyone else share these opinions? Yes there are many that share "these ideas" and I have a number (many) books that also share these ideas. Look up E. Raymond Capt -- his is a biblical archaeologist and has a lot of info. on this! Unfortunately, he passed away on March 11, 2008. (And as an aside, his wife and I have the same maiden name - first and last, but she goes by "Christina".) We had the privilege of meeting him a number of times after he stopped "going to the sites" personally. He has written many books and made many videos. One of particular interest to me was the "Great Pyramid Decoded". Best, Edy
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 2, 2008 17:49:55 GMT -5
The point God was making in Isaiah 50:1, was they sold themselves into slavery. God did NOT sell them out!
I hope you can comment on the posts I made to Rob on the remarriage thread...I do not think Rob is agreeing with either of us, at this time! Is your position , also a position that another websight would support? If so could you tell me which one.
I will admit....most of my commentary wasnt derived from a websight, but I did google the question ;'did God divorce Israel/Judah?'...and the best answer I could perceive is NO, and Isaiah 50:1 is NOT to be understood as a bill of divorcement from Israels mother, nor a selling out of Israels children! God divorces Israel: Jeremiah 3: Unfaithful Israel 6 During the reign of King Josiah, the LORD said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 18:51:24 GMT -5
The point God was making in Isaiah 50:1, was they sold themselves into slavery. God did NOT sell them out!
I hope you can comment on the posts I made to Rob on the remarriage thread...I do not think Rob is agreeing with either of us, at this time! Is your position , also a position that another websight would support? If so could you tell me which one.
I will admit....most of my commentary wasnt derived from a websight, but I did google the question ;'did God divorce Israel/Judah?'...and the best answer I could perceive is NO, and Isaiah 50:1 is NOT to be understood as a bill of divorcement from Israels mother, nor a selling out of Israels children! God divorces Israel: Jeremiah 3: Unfaithful Israel 6 During the reign of King Josiah, the LORD said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD. Interesting , but that seems to confirm that Jews were NOT divorced! It says PLAINLY in that chapter that God did not divorce Judah, whence the Jews came forth still the bride, Israel will never be remarried, as the old covenant is dead already! I rest my case.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 19:05:27 GMT -5
God divorces Israel: Jeremiah 3: Unfaithful Israel 6 During the reign of King Josiah, the LORD said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD. Interesting , but that seems to confirm that Jews were NOT divorced! It says PLAINLY in that chapter that God did not divorce Judah, whence the Jews came forth still the bride, Israel will never be remarried, as the old covenant is dead already! I rest my case. But the new testament , defined the ''true Jew'', is the person that is a Jew/chosen in ''heart''. The true Jew was not born of the ''flesh'' , but born of the ''spirit''. the children of Israel, [ok, ...the children of Jacob....{is that easier to understand?} ] BUT, in the end....it only matters what OUR personal place is!!! [as a child of God], and a bride to the bridegroom, who is the son of God.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 19:39:21 GMT -5
God divorces Israel: Jeremiah 3: Unfaithful Israel 6 During the reign of King Josiah, the LORD said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD. Interesting , but that seems to confirm that Jews were NOT divorced! It says PLAINLY in that chapter that God did not divorce Judah, whence the Jews came forth still the bride, Israel will never be remarried, as the old covenant is dead already! I rest my case.
ooops, I just googled some more info on the house of Israel/Jacob/Jews,
In Ezekiel 37, the prophet professied that these two nations would be ''brought together again''....and instead of two nations, they would be gathered together and made into one nation again, I think the concept was that Israel did want to be reunited...even though in Gods eyes, the covenant with the human Jews was finished on the cross, and the true Jew [in heart/soul] goes on just as it always had been ....for eternity, even toward the chosen prophets of the OT, they have always been faithful to God, always ....always!! THANKS for sharing, I am enjoying this discussion, tooo.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 2, 2008 20:38:42 GMT -5
GOD GAVE THEIR WIVES TO OTHER MEN:
Jeremiah 8
9 The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have?
10 Therefore I will give their wives to other men and their fields to new owners. From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit.
11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. "Peace, peace," they say, when there is no peace.
12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.
If it is a sin to remarry, why did God GIVE THEIR WIVES TO OTHER MEN?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 20:57:09 GMT -5
GOD GAVE THEIR WIVES TO OTHER MEN: Jeremiah 8 If it is a sin to remarry, why did God GIVE THEIR WIVES TO OTHER MEN? Is this a trick question?
So far, God hasn't been consulting me, about the way he runs his business , and I will not question whom he ''joins'' together either, that is his business, too. BUT , thanks for the vote of confidence, anyways! ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 21:05:14 GMT -5
GOD GAVE THEIR WIVES TO OTHER MEN: Jeremiah 8 If it is a sin to remarry, why did God GIVE THEIR WIVES TO OTHER MEN? I suppose that the verse about what God joins together let no man put asunder, would not include that God could put the marriage asunder, if they were idolatrous, but that would be Gods doing, and not mans ''undoing'', IMO
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 2, 2008 21:09:36 GMT -5
Now you're starting to get it!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 21:35:50 GMT -5
Now you're starting to get it!! So, now should I start over, again, so we can argue ? this is fun!
Actually, before you joined the discussion, I thought I had already covered the bases, about God joining two together, and that is his business, and for me to meddle in that business, is for me to stick my head into risky my neck, too.
If a vow to God needs to be broken, that needs to be ONLY between God and the couple, and NOT having my nose in it.
The plan God had, was that we shouldn't get divorce,
but now I can better see why the Jews in Jesus day were at so much confusion about this matter, and they tried to trick Jesus into approving ''divorce'' and the matter was not openly answered by Jesus, ...he said that it was for those that could receive it [Mathew 19:24, i think]....Jesus was good at skirting the tough questions, with more questions...
how did you like that, huh?
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 2, 2008 21:50:41 GMT -5
God divorced Israel. He is now preparing a new bride. (adultery?) It is now the spiritual bride which includes the GENTILES who believe. Those of the previous bride Israel (whom he divorced) can choose to be part of the bride. There will be a glorious marriage on the day of the marriage feast of the Lamb Those who believe in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile, will be part of this bride.
Is God committing adultery? He used to be married to the Jews ONLY ,through the OT Covenant. The Gentiles were not included. They, the JEWS, broke the covenant with their unfaithfulness, so GOD divorced them. He has accepted and promised to marry another bride: Gentiles. NO, GOD is not committing adultery to take another bride, because he DIVORCED the unbelieving Jews. They were now free to choose who to serve. He is free to also choose a new bride, because He is no longer bound to them by the covenant/marriage of the law WHICH THEY BROKE THROUGH THEIR IDOLATRY. To this day, No longer are people saved by being born a Jew. They must also believe in Jesus.
God did not want to divorce the Jews. It grieved him terribly. He plans reconciliation for those who will believe on him when their time comes. (after the age of the Gentiles) In the meantime, God is choosing another bride. Obviously, God does not want us as humans to divorce either: it grieves him terribly. He has provided a way of reconciliation. Both parties must choose it. If not, they must give a formal divorce BEFORE they take another spouse. To remarry without a divorce is adultery in God's eyes, that is why he DIVORCED Israel before taking a new bride.
This is how I understand it.
|
|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 3, 2008 9:44:39 GMT -5
Edy, do I understand you right? Here is the best I can figure from the discussion:
God was married to the children of Israel. Then they split into two: Judah, and the northern kingdom, which kept the name Israel. So then God was married to both Judah and her "sister" Israel. He divorced Israel and sent her away. Judah was naughty too, but he kept Judah (the Jews) anyway. Presumably when Assyria conquered Israel but couldn't conquer Judah. God's status today is that he is divorced from Israel, still married to the Jews, and also betrothed to a third bride.
I posted also on the "remarriage" thread.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2008 9:49:07 GMT -5
God divorced Israel. He is now preparing a new bride. (adultery?) It is now the spiritual bride which includes the GENTILES who believe. Those of the previous bride Israel (whom he divorced) can choose to be part of the bride. There will be a glorious marriage on the day of the marriage feast of the Lamb Those who believe in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile, will be part of this bride. Is God committing adultery? He used to be married to the Jews ONLY ,through the OT Covenant. The Gentiles were not included. They, the JEWS, broke the covenant with their unfaithfulness, so GOD divorced them. He has accepted and promised to marry another bride: Gentiles. NO, GOD is not committing adultery to take another bride, because he DIVORCED the unbelieving Jews. They were now free to choose who to serve. He is free to also choose a new bride, because He is no longer bound to them by the covenant/marriage of the law WHICH THEY BROKE THROUGH THEIR IDOLATRY. To this day, No longer are people saved by being born a Jew. They must also believe in Jesus. God did not want to divorce the Jews. It grieved him terribly. He plans reconciliation for those who will believe on him when their time comes. (after the age of the Gentiles) In the meantime, God is choosing another bride. Obviously, God does not want us as humans to divorce either: it grieves him terribly. He has provided a way of reconciliation. Both parties must choose it. If not, they must give a formal divorce BEFORE they take another spouse. To remarry without a divorce is adultery in God's eyes, that is why he DIVORCED Israel before taking a new bride. This is how I understand it. What I like about your post is the last line, and because you stated it such, I will read what you have to say, and try to understand , without having a ''bias''. I like to be open minded, too, and I want to learn, too, hopefully these traits can be synergistic!.
First , I do need to get rid of a certain ''bias'', then I will address your thesis! thanks for sharing it.
[at present...I am dealing with the reality that God brought marriage into the world, he is the author of its existance! and as such, he alone is the ''Love'' that brings a true marriage to life, and without Gods approval, the marriage might be something less than what it is ''masquerading'' as.., that being said, I have NO answers to the huge failure rate in our western culture, and the unknown ''sucess'' that another culture might be experiencing??] now that being said, where do we go from here?? Do we now realize that marriage is a mere 'human contract'? and as such, it is NOW dealt with by westernized lawyers!! and not with God???
This appears to be a conspiracy of the Nth degree!! goodness!
Just think if the lawyers are behind marriage contracts, and only they can wrangle out their termination! What a world we would be living in!
Oh wait! that seems to be the system we now are in, doesn't it?
So, why not go the route of biblical prophesy, and instead of Marriage being between the couple and their God, and a vow to be til death do they part, ....wouldn't the lawyers be in a snit, if people just live together with a joint ''agreement'' that if things do not work out, that they can forget the ''til death'' part?
It is time for marriage reform, but the lawyers will fight it tooth and nail, because that is, for some, their bread and butter.
just joking, but the reality is, that more and more people do want an out, before they even say their vows, sad, huh?
I will read your analysis now>. thanks
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 3, 2008 11:04:04 GMT -5
Not all of Judah was saved. He only kept 7,000 of them, and abolished the OT covenant with ALL of them. The remnant of 7,000 were then kept THROUGH GRACE. This is the beginning of salvation THROUGH GRACE.
God didn't plan divorce. He didn't plan to divorce the Jewish people in the beginning either. But he did.
God didn't originally plan for man and wife to divorce either. But he provided it as an alternative. (a necessary evil).
Call it a thesis if you like. Call it figurative if you like. THE FACTS REMAIN. If the 2x2's (and you) start saying that the things that God DID are all figurative, the belief system they have established will crumble.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2008 11:22:30 GMT -5
Not all of Judah was saved. He only kept 7,000 of them, and abolished the OT covenant with ALL of them. The remnant of 7,000 were then kept THROUGH GRACE. This is the beginning of salvation THROUGH GRACE. God didn't plan divorce. He didn't plan to divorce the Jewish people in the beginning either. But he did. God didn't originally plan for man and wife to divorce either. But he provided it as an alternative. (a necessary evil). THE FACTS REMAIN. If the 2x2's (and you) start saying that the things that God DID are all figurative, the belief system they have established will crumble. actually, I think he did plan that the nations would be divided into Judah and Israel, but ...somewhere in the OT, God says that a smoldering flax will he not quench out, etc. Well, if this is also true , and it is, then God saw that Israel was figuratively ''dead'' ...done ...as far as the spirit was concerned, yet the body needed to be seperated, and the word divorce comes to mind as a means of seperating them peaceably, imo.
I do not believe God divorced the Hebrew people, but many of them died off and were seperated from Gods love, that is truely divorcing themselves from Gods love, and not visevesa, imo!
|
|
|
Post by Comment on Apr 3, 2008 11:32:29 GMT -5
So how could God have divorced any people, when the marriage is to be that of his son? Aren't we getting a little carried away here?
|
|