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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2007 17:42:47 GMT -5
Well, Paul was a great example of a 2x2 preacher - do you reckon he made it?
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Post by based on on Oct 17, 2007 18:02:34 GMT -5
Your premise that Paul was a 2x2 preacher requires one to believe that Paul was preaching after the year 1897.
Again, this is another example how a person has to be willing to suspend disbelief in order to accept what you write.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 18, 2007 0:04:37 GMT -5
ok sure, my opinion is (as you have already offered up your OPINION) that you're wrong. Have a nice day. M.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 7:07:08 GMT -5
Paul was with Barnabas, ie 2x2 Paul was with Silas, ie 2x2 Paul was with Timothy, ie 2x2
Ok, other times Paul was on his own, or with two or three, but the bible gives us, in Paul, the example of an itinerate preacher.
ps when your own preachers forsake all and go out preaching, do they go 1x1, 2x2, 3x3 .... ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 8:13:30 GMT -5
Paul was one of some who adopted an itinerant form of ministry. He was a chosen vessel of God for the purpose of taking the Gospel to the Gentiles. He even accepted God had "gifted" him with "celibacy" for this mission in life. This celibacy was not an "enforced one" but rather a God-given one to enable him more easily to carry out the role he was appointed to do.
Although Paul was at times itinerant, he did stay for some lengthy spells in some areas that would qualify for the description "stationary" or "localised" rather than itinerant or peripatetic. Overall though, his lifestyle after his conversion was one of a going from place to place.
Sometimes he went out with one or more companions and at other times he was alone. At times he had entourages with female fellow helpers who likely performed some domestic duties as well as assisting with the organising and administration of the Gospel.
A strict 2x2 he was NOT, nor did he ever claim to be and NEVER promoted such a notion. The fact he was sometimes accompanied by only "one" companion is only a part of his overall ministerial circumstances, not the overall importance of it.
My own ministers, whether stationary or on an itinerant mission, sometimes go out 1x1, 2x2, 3x3 and more, just as Paul did.
However, none of them place any importance upon the format, for the circumstances (as was the case with Paul) determine the format. THey place importance on taking the message to the unsaved world. One of the things they preach most about is "loving thy neighbour" as in strangers and unsaved persons from all walks of life.
In following the two main commandments of Jesus, do your ministers
1) Love God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength, and (the second which is like this)
2) Love their neighbours as themselves (i.e. neighbours as explained by Jesus in the example of the Samaritan)
This is of far greater importance (if a comparison can ever wisely be made) than form of ministry.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 8:22:15 GMT -5
quote - "In following the two main commandments of Jesus, do your (sic) monisters"
1) Love God with all their heart, sould, mind and strength, and (the second which is like this)
Enough to leave home, family and worldly possessions to proclaim the message of the one who also forsook all.
2) Love their neighbours as themselves (i.e. neighbours as explained by Jesus in the example of the Samaritan)
And to give more than the oil, the wine, the lodgings for a man - to give their life for the gospel.
This is of far greater importance (if a comparison can ever wisely be made) than form of ministry.
The form of ministry is what John the Baptist, Jesus, the disciples and Paul showed as an example for proper ministering of the word. No other form of ministry was authorized.
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Post by attention bert on Oct 18, 2007 12:18:53 GMT -5
Enough to leave home, family and worldly possessions to proclaim the message of the one who also forsook all. Great works is not an indication of salvation or righteousness. You are putting your faith in what the workers do. May I suggest putting your faith in Jesus instead? Do you think no man has given more than your workers? Throughout history, many have given much more than the best of your workers. This doesn't matter though. God is no respecter of persons. You hold your workers in great esteem. They are men and nothing more. Turn to Jesus. Worship him, not the workers. Worshiping a form of ministry is no different than worshiping a worker. Both are wrong. Why do you worship the workers? Why do you worship the form of ministry? Both are of man! Jesus told the disciples how to spread the gospel. He did not "authorize" technique or form, he simply told them what would work in the culture of the time. If you believe otherwise... Why do you not insist that your workers speak the same language as Jesus did in his day? Why do you not insist that your workers dress the same as they did back then? And why do you not insist that your workers follow all the traditions and mimic all the cultural aspects of Jesus' day?
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Post by ooops on Oct 18, 2007 12:27:29 GMT -5
Don't hold your breath.I would put this down as a good story and no tapes Guest "wondering" asked for more information regarding the context of Jerome Frandle's comments regarding the danger of "not listening to worker advice". The following is taken from a portion of a recording of his sermon. Raw Form:
That verse in the 106th psalm often comes to mind. It speaks about - uh - "And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul." So if we don't want to obey - and there are suggestions that God's servants have made - we don't want to obey - we don't have to obey that - we don't have to. But then there's gonna be leanness in... They're - they're seeking out a right way for us and a safe way for us. And - uh - it's gonna be leanness in our soul. We're not gonna have the satisfaction in the way - uh - that - uh - [inaudible] was talking... We're not going to have any joy - we're not going to have any confidence before God. And maybe we won't have the hope that [inaudible]. So sent leanness - we don't want leanness in our soul. And God is [inaudible] and it's a righteous [inaudible]. And we're very glad for that.Condensed & Clarified Form:
That verse in the 106th psalm often comes to mind; It says "And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul." God's servants are seeking out a right way and a safe way for us. And if we don't want to obey the suggestions they've made, we don't have to. But then there's going to be leanness in our soul, we won't have satisfaction in the way, we won't have any joy, we won't have any confidence before God, and we may not have any hope. We don't want leanness in our soul.I'm sorry it took so long to respond to your request. I had to wait until I had the time to dig the recording out, find the relevant audio, and type this up. -Kansas Reporter
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Post by Will on Oct 18, 2007 12:57:27 GMT -5
Bert's contortion of the 2 great commandments in the NT reminds me a few years back in the land up-over there was a lot of anxiety about of group called "posse comitatus". My wife saw a video of one of their meetings to the troops. In it the leader quoted scripture: "for unto _us_ a child is born. not unto _them_, but unto _us_"
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Post by Perspective on Oct 18, 2007 13:09:11 GMT -5
I bet Ron Thomke,( Kansas and Nebraska head worker) had no idea someone taped the 07 Independence KS convention. Maybe the workers will be more careful about what they say which will cause exclusive and legalistic doctrine to die away? You never know. Yes, the 2x2 group is the only religion that preaches exclusivism. It will blow up in their faces when others hear recordings that show that the 2x2's think that their way is the narrow way to Heaven. Mind blowing. Meanwhile, I am reading in the paper about a local religious group that is promoting violence against gays. The other day, I read about a religious group that promotes polygamy. Yeah, those 2x2's sure are a horrible bunch..... ;D
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Post by old cliches on Oct 18, 2007 13:45:59 GMT -5
No other form of ministry was authorized. [/b][/quote] No form of ministry was commanded. However, since you are deadset that 2x2 is the only authorized form, then you should fit in nicely as a Mormon missionary. They go 2x2.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Oct 18, 2007 14:10:35 GMT -5
If Paul went with one other person, wouldn't it be 1 and 1, 1 by 1, 1X1? If he went out with two people, wouldn't it be 1 and 2, 1 by 2, 1X2? If he went out with three people, wouldn't it be 1 and 3, 1 by 3, 1X3? If he went with another and Peter went with another, would it be 1X1 and 1X1? Or is it 2 (peter and his buddy) by 2 (paul and his buddy)? So how can one guy be a 2X2? If he was by himself, he would be a oner or loner. Wouldn't it be more accurate to call those preachers onesomes (lonesomes), twosomes, threesomes, and foursomes? And if he went out with four others, that would be four plus one which is a hand which would make them a handsome outfit.
Glad to sent you people straight. You're welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 14:25:15 GMT -5
quote - "In following the two main commandments of Jesus, do your (sic) monisters"
1) Love God with all their heart, sould, mind and strength, and (the second which is like this)
Enough to leave home, family and worldly possessions to proclaim the message of the one who also forsook all.
2) Love their neighbours as themselves (i.e. neighbours as explained by Jesus in the example of the Samaritan)
And to give more than the oil, the wine, the lodgings for a man - to give their life for the gospel.
This is of far greater importance (if a comparison can ever wisely be made) than form of ministry.
The form of ministry is what John the Baptist, Jesus, the disciples and Paul showed as an example for proper ministering of the word. No other form of ministry was authorized.
This is of far greater importance (if a comparison can ever wisely be made) than form of ministry.
The form of ministry is what John the Baptist, Jesus, the disciples and Paul showed as an example for proper ministering of the word. No other form of ministry was authorized.
1) People can be so bound up in a way that they confuse their love for, or are so coditioned by a Form of ministry, that they will forake all for it. I see more and more "love for a system" being wrongly regarded as a "love for lost souls" as the motive for many workers. Most are comfortable in preaching to the converted rather than the unsaved who often make them feel "uncomfortable."
There will be many at the day of judgement who will claim to have done wonderful works in the name of Jesus, including prophesying, who will be told "Depart.........!" You can give your body to be burned, but if you have not Christ ?
2) Love thy neighbour as in the example of the Samaritan. That is the gospel, or at least a major part of it, not giving up your life to preach to the converted or those you are comfortable with. It is showing love to those that you don't know, i.e. "Lord whenst did we give you a cup of water to drink, or clothes for your back, or visit you in prison ?" People will not ask these questions when they already know the answers simply through having done them to those that they know or are comfortable with.
3) John the Baptist preached in the wilderness. True his disciples went out round about over a vast area. John as I understand it was a 1X1 minister like Jesus most of the time.
Paul clearly showed a variety of ministerial forms for ministering the Gospel, including 1x1, 2x2, 3x3 etc as well as stationary and localised forms and of course itinerant.
Re- "No other form was authorised." Delete "other." No form was authorised ! Various forms were practiced.
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