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Post by Even More Sorry on Oct 2, 2007 20:31:17 GMT -5
To "So Sorry" I really doubt I'll have the time to give your post the time it deserves to be responded to. But, first of all, let me say that your bible must be QUITE different than mine! Probably it is if yours reads as you say it does. Mine is KJV. First of all, I do not like the condescending attitude. After the Queen (Vashti) refused to show her stuff and dance for the king, she was no longer queen and the king had virgins gathered. They were purified for 12 months - you know how dirty women are! Besides, this was a great way to be sure one of them was not with child. The king always liked to know who his kids were. Then (and here is the part that is apparently not in your bible) the women were brought to the king. 2:12 Now when every maid's turn was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that she had been twelve months, according to the manner of the women, (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit, six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with sweet odours, and with other things for the purifying of the women;) 2:13 Then thus came every maiden unto the king; whatsoever she desired was given her to go with her out of the house of the women unto the king's house. 2:14 In the evening she went, and on the morrow she returned into the second house of the women, to the custody of Shaashgaz, the king's chamberlain, which kept the concubines: she came in unto the king no more, except the king delighted in her, and that she were called by name.So the virgin was taken into the King. In the evening. From the house where the virgins were kept. In the morning she went to the house where the concubines were kept. She was no longer welcome at the house of the virgins since she had graduated to concubine What did you think Esther did all night with the King? Regale him with tales from the house of the virgins? Describe the pillow fights? Esther won the sex contest and was made queen. I will be looking forward to your edification of the role these women played in the Bible. Just remember - "went in unto", "Knew", "uncovered his/her nakedness" almost always means sex in the bible.
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Post by jh62 on Oct 2, 2007 23:50:49 GMT -5
Dear Even More Sorry, That's weird...my version is the KJV also, but nowhere do I read the same things in those verses that you do. You added to them. While I will admit she may or may not have had sex with the king, why is it you assume she seduced the king? Hmmm....also makes me wonder why you're so anxious to condemn these women? I believe there would have been many ways she could have won the kings favor that didn't include sex. Well, I'm not going to lie and say my post didn't have a condescending tone to it, because it did. I meant for it to sound that way. I suppose that's because I view these women as amazing, and you don't, and it ticks me off. Just some honesty there. Of course you have the right to your opinion, just don't expect me to buy in to it! Bottom line is you're going to view them as nothing more than cheap prostitutes, and I will still hold them in high esteem, so there's no need to discuss it. Unless you just want to get a good debate going? I'm always up for a good debate! Hopefully I'll have the time to commit to a good debate, but I do have a business to run, and spend several hours a day with my mother who is 88, so it may take me a little longer to respond.
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Post by jh62 on Oct 3, 2007 0:24:47 GMT -5
Just in case you're up for it...Seems as though we've chosen Esther to examine.
Esther 2:9 And the maiden pleased him and she obtained kindness of him and he speedily gave her things for purification, with such things as belonged to her, and seven maidens, which were meet to be given her, out of the king's house: and he preferred her and her maids unto the best place of the house of women.
Keep in mind, she seemed to have obtained kindness from the king before the maidens were ever taken to the king! Notice how it says he speedily gave her things for purification? Purifying her for what? For the king. No, it doesn't say "you know how dirty women are!". That's your words. The purification was for the maidens health and beauty.
It also says that Esther obtained favor in the sight of all them that looked upon her. Seems to me she must have had some very positive qualities.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 3, 2007 1:26:00 GMT -5
jh...I've really enjoyed reading your posts on this. Mich (and they made much sense to me...but I will admit to being amused by the above poster ... ;D)
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Post by jh62 on Oct 3, 2007 3:47:19 GMT -5
Thanks Mich. The truth is, I sometimes talk myself in circles. Ugh.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 3, 2007 3:51:30 GMT -5
LOL. I've often used that expression you have under your av, too. TOO funny! ;D You've done a good thing, though, as you've interested me in reading about Esther. Too tired right now, adn have to work in the am (can't sleep) so will wait..but maybe tomorrow night. Thanks! M.
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Post by Brick on Oct 3, 2007 8:41:07 GMT -5
If you like Esther, you might want to watch the movie, One Night With the King. I enjoyed it.
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Post by Sounds good to me on Oct 3, 2007 10:52:12 GMT -5
Just in case you're up for it...Seems as though we've chosen Esther to examine. Esther 2:9 And the maiden pleased him and she obtained kindness of him and he speedily gave her things for purification, with such things as belonged to her, and seven maidens, which were meet to be given her, out of the king's house: and he preferred her and her maids unto the best place of the house of women. Keep in mind, she seemed to have obtained kindness from the king before the maidens were ever taken to the king! Notice how it says he speedily gave her things for purification? Purifying her for what? For the king. No, it doesn't say "you know how dirty women are!". That's your words. The purification was for the maidens health and beauty. Again, I am sorry to have to point out the error of your ways. You need to look at the verse before: Esther 2:8 So it came to pass, when the king's commandment and his decree was heard, and when many maidens were gathered together unto Shushan the palace, to the custody of Hegai, that Esther was brought also unto the king's house, to the custody of Hegai, keeper of the women.The kindnesses here were not from the king. The king had not yet seen Esther or sampled her charms. The pronoun he in verse 9 clearly refers to Hegai in verse 8. You are right - the purification of the women was for the king. And the 12 months was to be sure there was not a child on the way that the "virgin" could claim was the king's offspring. If the woman was not 'with' the king (or anyone else) for 12 months when she finally was brought to see the king it would be certain that any offspring would be the king's. As for women being considered unclean (impure) - if they were not why would they have to be purified? If water is pure you do not purify it. You do not clean clothes that are clean. I did not say she didn't People looked at her. When you look at a person you can determine little about her other then her physical attributes. So she was comely. Hot, as it were. What exactly did I add? I think it is clear that Esther was bought to the king for more than a cup of tea. I assume she seduced the king because after spending the night with Esther he has been seduced. He made her Queen. I am not condemning these woman. I am just pointing out that the women who the OT promotes used the sexuality to get ahead. The bible relegates women to a very inferior status. I didn't say they weren't amazing. I said they got ahead by using their sexuality. Esther must have been amazing - she got the king to make her queen. And she didn't bring anything in with her. She just went in with her natural charms. Debate is good. I never said they were cheap. After all Esther got to be queen. That price excludes her from the cheap class. The problem is that the women in the OT had very little to trade with. They could bare children and they could have sex. These women used what they had to get what they wanted/needed.
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Post by rational on Oct 3, 2007 10:54:56 GMT -5
If you like Esther, you might want to watch the movie, One Night With the King. I enjoyed it. I can't help but to think I would like Esther. At least to look at. Sounded like she was easy on the eyes!
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 3, 2007 17:28:22 GMT -5
LOL. Now, that sounds pretty "rational" Hehehe.
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Post by rational on Oct 3, 2007 18:24:11 GMT -5
LOL. Now, that sounds pretty "rational" Hehehe. Looking at beauty is very rational! Oh you know Keats thought that A thing of beauty is a joy foreverbut then I am sure that in the back of Esther's mind were the lines from Herrick: GATHER ye rosebuds while ye may, Old Time is still a-flying: And this same flower that smiles to-day To-morrow will be dying. reminding her if she didn't WoW the king this time around she wasn't getting any younger and other than her physical attributes she didn't have a huge dowry to offer!
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Post by jh62 on Oct 3, 2007 19:44:22 GMT -5
LOL. Ok, rational/so sorry/whoever , you win, and I back down. Not because I wouldn't love the debate, I would. But right now, my mind is silly putty. It would be like me bringing a knife to a gun fight. Also, I do have to laugh just a teeny little bit when I read some of the things you post. Not very much though!!! LOL Truth is, my mother is in very serious condition, and after spending about 9 hrs. at the hospital, I don't want to argue or discuss anything with anyone. I just want to say, "Let there be peace." I'm sure you would have slain me in a battle of wits anyway!! But NEXT time...!!! LOL Or are rational and so sorry different people? If so...well, you still have good points.
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Post by jh62 on Oct 3, 2007 19:49:46 GMT -5
Mich, you have the greatest avs!! I know I don't show much of a sense of humor on here very much, but I think I'd find you funny. lol. Thumbs up to the avs.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 3, 2007 20:07:07 GMT -5
heh. thanks..I think we're in the same mood tonight. We can share the av. That said, your situation is a much worse one to be in and I'm so sorry. (((hugs)))M.
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Post by jh62 on Oct 4, 2007 8:43:02 GMT -5
Thanks so much, M. I hope your day is brighter today! Hugs.
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Post by jh62 on Oct 4, 2007 8:45:39 GMT -5
Hi "Sounds good to me"
Oh heck, you didn't even begin to touch the tip of the iceberg on the errors of my ways! ;D
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Post by diet coke on Oct 4, 2007 9:54:57 GMT -5
Mr. Sorry is right, of course. My mother is another of those able to read Esther and ignore everything between the lines; she says it's her favorite book in the Bible. I turned the conversation off quickly. It's a strange book to have in the Bible...no mention whatsoever of God or prayer, just physical beauty, murder and revenge.
But here I am making the same mistake of laying today's morals over the top of yesterday's writings and acting judgmental. Esther's sexual conquest is what women were for, and murder and revenge was considered God's rightful judgment.
Thank God we've grown up a bit.
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Post by rational on Oct 4, 2007 10:13:03 GMT -5
LOL. Ok, rational/so sorry/whoever Or are rational and so sorry different people? If so...well, you still have good points. They are the same - I was too lazy to log in and thought it would just be a quick post. But then it began to get interesting.
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Post by jh62 on Oct 4, 2007 17:00:54 GMT -5
Hey rational, you DID make it interesting! lol. And you're fun to debate with. Sorry for the condescending attitude, but you seemed to take it well. We'll have to get a really good debate going again soon. Sheesh though...I can see you're really going to make me dig deep to support my belief! lol. Hey, I may even have to add to the scripture, so if you see something written in crayon, just believe it, ok??
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 4, 2007 17:37:30 GMT -5
rational seems to be very..rational. Heh. M. Jh..hows your mom? M.
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Post by jh62 on Oct 5, 2007 9:17:37 GMT -5
Hey, M., thanks for asking. She's awake and talking and eating, but I just don't see the sparkle in her eyes, ya know? My hopes are that whatever's best for her will happen. She's having heart failure, and now has pneumonia (sp?).
Is everything going ok for you? Noticed you had said your mood wasn't good either.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 5, 2007 14:43:05 GMT -5
awww jh...I'm so sorry Can't even imagine going through that with either of my parents..you have a great attitude concerning it...whatever's best for her, etc. I will have you and your family in my thoughts and more ((((ju62)))) your way..... Things are ok here. When I think about you and so many others going through so many things....I'm fantastic, really! Take care. M.
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