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Post by i dont understand on Sept 26, 2007 22:18:27 GMT -5
For all the dumping on the 2x2 way, it's workers & it's followers, that I read here, and elsewhere, I always listen to worker letters, from around the world...my professing mother reads them to me, or e-mails them...and everything always sounds so inspiring. Then there are the photos of workers & friends too...all fresh-scrubbed and plain & modest in appearance. There are are stories about changed lives, and inspirational yet simple lives of the those in the truth.
I'm so bewildered. Could they really be God's Way? What's so wrong about them?
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Post by a believer on Sept 26, 2007 22:36:38 GMT -5
Changed lives because they met the workers, or changed lives because they 'met' Jesus?
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Post by i dont understand on Sept 26, 2007 22:57:24 GMT -5
Well perhaps when they meet the workers....that is when they meet Jesus?
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Post by ithascome on Sept 26, 2007 23:27:53 GMT -5
i dont understand ...
What are you gooing at?
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Post by i dont understand on Sept 27, 2007 0:54:26 GMT -5
Ithascome....am I "gooing" or am I merely asking a question?
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therose
Junior Member
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
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Post by therose on Sept 27, 2007 1:10:31 GMT -5
I'm so bewildered. Could they really be God's Way? What's so wrong about them?Just remember one thing as the old saying goes: "Things are not always as they appear"
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Post by i dont understand on Sept 27, 2007 1:39:16 GMT -5
Yes, rose....I completely agree.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 27, 2007 3:36:03 GMT -5
and sometimes they are exactly as they appear. M.
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timber
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Post by timber on Sept 27, 2007 7:09:51 GMT -5
We (those who go to meetings, etc) are like anyone else - a work in progress.. There is only One who is perfect. The Lord Jesus.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2007 7:37:34 GMT -5
What's wrong with the Workers? Plenty... they don't wear gowns, crosses, clerical collars and hoods to show how saintly they are. They won't do courses in theology like many of our gay, atheist or trendy ministers did. They don't want to have their own private jet like Paula White They don't rub shoulders with presidents like old Billy does. They won't change their doctrines like the Anglicans and Protestants regularly do. They aren't saving the world like the Savlos are. They don't have the biggest church, the largest congregations, the greatest political power, the greatest orators, the most money etc. They don't go along with this "it is not possible, or even desirable, to live as Jesus and his disciples lived."
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shushy
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50%
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Post by shushy on Sept 27, 2007 8:04:19 GMT -5
Im gonna leave someone else to answer this one...wow bert..Do you really believe your post?
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Post by jh62 on Sept 27, 2007 8:19:05 GMT -5
I think it would be more accurate to ask, "Could they really be part of God's Way?" In that case, searching my heart, I would have to answer that I believe many 2x2's could be/ or are part of God's Way, just as there are many people in many different religions that are part of God's Way.
I think we find whatever it is we're looking for. If we look for the good in people, we'll find it. If we look for the bad in people, we'll find that too. There's good and bad in everyone, and in every religion.
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Post by freespirit on Sept 27, 2007 9:15:29 GMT -5
First, I want to say one will never find God's way looking at a group of people. We find God's way when we look at Jesus, because Jesus is God's way.
Many people find a lot of peace, comfort, love in the meetings. I am one of those... HOWEVER... I have found that the group is made out of humans. That means that people get off track. They do deplorable things sometimes in the name of God. They hate instead of love, they throw rocks, gossip, get on power-trips, have out-of-control egos, arrogance, act like freaks--pretty much like any other group, church, organization, volunteer crew, work place, etc that you will ever be apart of.
The trick, I think, is to not let the nuts spoil the sweetness--to keep looking at Jesus. That's easy is some areas and difficult in others. Especially when poor leadership leads to poor decisions.
Lyle has my utmost respect for how he's handled the recent situation. But others have acted in horrible, hurtful ways in similar situations.
I've seen workers yank people aside right before a meeting to give them a dressing down about something that God would have taken care of in His own time and His own way. All that leads to is a bunch of hurt and problems. Telling someone to stop taking part after a divorce is IMO like kicking a dog while it's down. It's not how Jesus handled the women who was brought to him in adultery.
Modest dress is fine... but making up rules about no open toed shoes or no wearing shiny watch bands or that women must wear a skirt to mow the yard just borders on freakish (not modest, because it's not moderate) behavior in my peabody brain. Maybe that doesn't bother you. I think it's wrong to tell women what to wear beyond what it says in the scripture--to add your own interpretation and traditions and customs into the mix. Let people go to God and make up their own mind about the matter.
I've had workers come to my house, not bother to say thank you for anything I've prepared or the work I've done to get ready for them--instead, they complain about minor crap--like I've got a stain on the carpet. I'm thinking that maybe they are tired and stressed out.
As far as the letters sounding good:
When I write on here, I never send the first draft. I read it a few times and kinda see if what I said makes sense. I try to be loving, caring, kind, concerned about others and show all that great feel-good stuff. But if you met me in person, you'd see that sometimes I'm mean-spirited, brutally sarcastic, arrogant, prideful, etc, etc. I am pretty much a sinner. A big one. I have a biting, irreverent sense of humor--which my husband appreciates but not every one else does, so I try to temper it to get along in public. I would hope that the workers, when they write letters, do the same. But, you can bet they are sinners just like me. And everybody else.
There was an old brother worker one time that said, "Some people find this way and they find a church, but some people find Jesus." I think that's true in just about any church there is.
It's God we're looking for. The people are never perfect. Not in this church. Not in other churches. Look for God.
Random thoughts.
Peace to all, freespirit
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Post by jh62 on Sept 27, 2007 9:32:19 GMT -5
Amen, freespirit!
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Post by diet coke on Sept 27, 2007 11:18:38 GMT -5
I'm so bewildered. Could they really be God's Way? What's so wrong about them? I giggled before I cried about this. Nothing is wrong with them, of course, that isn't wrong with about every other man or woman on the earth. Man has for 3000 years tried to figure out the "way" instead of merely appreciating and honoring God. We used to sacrifice animals and even children, for God's sake. What's WRONG with people like Abraham??? It's a wonderful way and a wonderful people for the most part, but of course, underneith it is religion, and that always leads to plenty of heated argument and stone-throwing. What's "wrong" with them on this board is merely that they are a minority.
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Post by a believer on Sept 27, 2007 17:14:47 GMT -5
What's wrong with the Workers? Plenty... they don't wear gowns, crosses, clerical collars and hoods to show how saintly they are. They won't do courses in theology like many of our gay, atheist or trendy ministers did. They don't want to have their own private jet like Paula White They don't rub shoulders with presidents like old Billy does. They won't change their doctrines like the Anglicans and Protestants regularly do. They aren't saving the world like the Savlos are. They don't have the biggest church, the largest congregations, the greatest political power, the greatest orators, the most money etc. They don't go along with this "it is not possible, or even desirable, to live as Jesus and his disciples lived." I've been going to churches outside of meetings for a number of years now and I have never met a pastor that wears a gown, hood or dresses any different to a worker. They are not gay, trendy or atheist like Bert proposes, but I know workers who are gay and hear about those who are child molesters. I don't know of any pastors personally who have their own private jet, but I know of workers who have shares in oil. Nor do I know personally pastors who rub shoulders with presidents but I would have no problem if they did. I sure hope the church is saving the world, after all didn't Jesus tell us to go into the world and preach the Gospel, wasn't Jesus into saving the world, after all he died on the Cross so that you Bert, might have salvation. Jesus was sure into saving the world. Jesus sure knew how to draw the multitudes and had thousands that following him. A pattern copy is a counterfeit, there is only one Jesus not matter how much we try to copy him we are only a counterfeit, because no one can copy him as he alone gave his life for me. No worker can do that. No worker can save, only Jesus can save.
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chris
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Post by chris on Sept 27, 2007 18:13:09 GMT -5
freespirit, Loved your thoughts & spirit! Thanks for sharing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2007 1:06:45 GMT -5
quote - "... I have never met a pastor that wears a gown, hood or dresses any different to a worker." Well, there's a difference right there. Any such pastor who wears such religious regalia will admit its the tradition of men, and nothing from scripture.
quote - "They are not gay, trendy or atheist like Bert proposes, but I know workers who are gay and hear about those who are child molesters. And yes, if we find a gay worker we will ask him to desist, or resign. We are not of those churches who not only "tolerate" gays, but "celebrate" the same. Don't judge a people by those who breach their principles.
quote - "I don't know of any pastors personally who have their own private jet, but I know of workers who have shares in oil. Well, White has such a jet, amongst other televangelists. If a worker has shares in oil (and I have them, too) then one needs to ask is he investing donated money for the ministry, or for his own private use.
quote - "Nor do I know personally pastors who rub shoulders with presidents but I would have no problem if they did." I do. Says of Jesus that he was "despised and rejected of men." And he himself said "woe when all men speak well of you." And men certainly speak well of Mr. Billy Graham.
quote - "I sure hope the church is saving the world, after all didn't Jesus tell us to go into the world and preach the Gospel, wasn't Jesus into saving the world, after all he died on the Cross so that you Bert, might have salvation. Jesus was sure into saving the world. Jesus sure knew how to draw the multitudes and had thousands that following him." I have no problem with that.
quote - "A pattern copy is a counterfeit, there is only one Jesus not matter how much we try to copy him we are only a counterfeit, because no one can copy him as he alone gave his life for me. No worker can do that. No worker can save, only Jesus can save." That's sly and arrant nonsense. Some quotes... "Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him..."
"In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works"
"... Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."
Anyone wearing liturgical vestments, anyone fashioning a temple, anyone scripting new church traditions, any preacher not willing to leave his worldly goods behind etc etc etc rejects the pattern shown to them by God.
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Post by kencoolidge on Sept 28, 2007 5:34:10 GMT -5
Bert Did Jesus come for our salvation or to establish a ministry?.Did he intend that someone need stand between salvation and man? Is Jesus your salvation?Are you saved?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2007 5:56:54 GMT -5
quote - "Did Jesus come for our salvation or to establish a ministry?" Yes. Romans 10:14 "...and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
quote - "Did he intend that someone need stand between salvation and man?" Yes, Himself.
quote - "Is Jesus your salvation?" You know my background.
quote - "Are you saved?" Are you?
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Post by translated on Sept 28, 2007 8:38:34 GMT -5
quote - "Is Jesus your salvation?" You know my background.Translation: No.
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Post by jh62 on Sept 28, 2007 9:08:49 GMT -5
Bert, I think you may be forgetting that there is evidence of what you would classify as "regalia" in scripture, and Jesus himself may have worn this "regalia" since he was a Jew. While I do believe that many times religious "regalia" (as you call it), is for show to man, it really had a different purpose to begin with that I was never familiar with while in the 2x2's.
Religious "regalia" in the scriptures:
the tallit - Numbers 15:37-41 - the instruction to make fringes on the borders of their clothing - more commonly known today as a prayer shawl
the tefillin - Deuteronomy 6:8 - the instruction to bind God's word/law to one's hand and to wear it between the eyes - including the shel yad (bound to the arm) and the shel rosh (worn on the head)
The purpose of this religious "regalia" was clearly stated in the scriptures of the OT. It was to be a constant reminder to the people that God had delivered them and to remember the commandments. It wasn't to show off.
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Post by jh62 on Sept 28, 2007 9:25:43 GMT -5
P.S. Bert, an interesting study might be to look up different religious "regalia" and to discover the meaning of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2007 9:35:04 GMT -5
Jesus could have dressed as a Pharisee, a Sadducee or an Essene. Which of these would have he looked liked? And, if he chose something different, why isn't it recorded?
from our 2007 web site... "The high priest wore holy garments. The uppermost garment was called the Ephod, made in four colours: blue, purple, scarlet and white. Upon the Ephod was the breastplate, with twelve precious stones. On the shoulders are two additional precious stones. The blue garment is called the robe, under which the high priest wore a white fine linen woven tunic. On his head is the white fine linen turban. Around the base of the turban is a gold crown, reading "HOLY TO THE LORD". But the author of Hebrews, in describing the furniture in the tabernacle, the ark and the holy garments, states that all these were "a shadow of heavenly things," and "figures of the true" tabernacle in heaven. These represented Christ until the time of his Coming. Thus Jesus annulled the symbols of the Old Covenant.
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Post by jh62 on Sept 28, 2007 9:38:36 GMT -5
If Jesus annulled the symbols...where in the scripture does it tell that he said not to wear these things anymore? My guess is that the disciples all wore these things and probably didn't give up wearing them the moment Jesus died.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2007 10:08:57 GMT -5
This comes up all the time, "where did Jesus say..." It is an argument, for instance, used to counter those who worship in homes - and such people will happily build cathedrals on that very basis, without seeing the irony.
All forms of liturgical garments, since the New Testament, are without authority. Jesus and his disciples dressed like any other man. Paul's only comment about dress, for instance, was that it should be respectful.
God gave precise instruction on how the priest was to dress. With the end of the priesthood came the end of the priest's symbolic garments.
Those priests, ministers, monks, nuns etc who dress as they do took no instruction from Jesus. They made their own rules, and worshiped God in their own imaginations.
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Post by jh62 on Sept 28, 2007 10:09:50 GMT -5
P.S. Bert, are you saying the prayer shawl and tefillin were a shadow of heavenly things? No, they were a reminder to the people. Do you feel there would be something wrong with reminding ourselves that God delivers?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2007 10:12:07 GMT -5
Symbols "speak" and symbols "remind." But in the New Testament we have only two formal symbols - baptism and the Eucharist.
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