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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 13, 2015 16:39:55 GMT -5
The post I'm referring to is this one by towit; I'm not bitter and resentful, nor do I feel personally attacked and defensive. I'm just wondering what makes an over-the-top activist exe tick in an academic and objective way. For the most part I feel activist exes do themselves a disservice and harm when they go so far over the top. When they go so far over the top they should realize they are harming their own cause - that is what the observations by the non-professing people towit and daybreak quote indicates to me. I suppose harming their own credibility is an activist own exes's choice and business, but it is an interesting psychological and sociological phenomena to study. There is no shortage of it to study. Jesse - the interesting thing is that from what I've seen is that there are many people who relate to the activist over the top ex members. I don't know but I imagine you would put Doug Parker in this category based on what he wrote. However, while Doug would have been satan personified to many professing folk he was just a regular guy who was focussed on exposing a history that had been clearly lied about. He was far from bitter and twisted to those who knew him. Likewise some may put Elizabeth Coleman in this category but I have seen dozens of notes of thanks to Elizabeth from ex members who can totally relate to what she wrote.i know Elizabeth and she like Doug is just a regular, very pleasant person who clearly is motivated by worker behaviour that is far from sound. It obviously depends on ones perspective but I would simply say that what youi would call activist over the top ex members are motivated by the poor behaviour or dishonesty of a few senior leaders in the group which they have personally experienced - and they choose to research or pen it. I've never written anything officially under my own name and don't intend to but similarly I am motivated to talk to others by being told by our head worker that I had blasphemed by questioning him about what he had spoken in a sermon which went to heart of the groups teaching. Just some thoughts. Doug wasn't simply a "a regular guy who was focussed on exposing a history" in 1954. I think the 1954 document poisoned the well to some extent, for anything he wrote in the future. I think you can understand that Ross, anyone who read the 1954 document would have automatically wondered if Secret Sect was simply more of the same. I'd bet Doug wished a time or two he had never written "A Spiritual Fraud Exposed". I can say that would be a safe bet because Cherie says Doug demanded she not publish it on her site. Same for the head worker you refer too, we all have said and done things we would not repeat. We should allow each other to change our minds, we shouldn't visit others at an address they don't live at anymore. That happens over and over and over. It shouldn't. This is where bert's axiom applies; You don't judge a community by the breach of its principles. I think this can happen on a personal level: For instance I've hammered you with your cult quote, yet I'm honest enough to realize that in some sense what you said was a breach of your own principles. Therefore I don't judge you negatively for it, in fact I don't judge you at all. I'm just watching the wheels go 'round and 'round. We as humans ought to recognize our tendency to pile on negatives then pronounce judgment on the pile of subjectively selected negatives. We should remember the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The human tendency is to judge the weak flesh and ignore the willing spirit. There are LOTS of warnings about the danger of getting stuck in this pit of negativity. It is a very destructive thing to do, and very self serving. There is always good in people, most of the time way more than enough good to offset the negative. I think the same holds true for a community - even the fellowship.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 17:06:19 GMT -5
It would seem nothing has changed, not a thing. Exes are bitter and those who are professing are bitter that exes are bitter and on it goes I guess. oh how bitter I'm interested in this word "bitter", and in particular the phrase "bitter exes". It reminds me of something a worker said in a Sunday morning meeting. He said that more people are leaving the Truth than are joining, and the main reason is that they are "offended at someone". But he didn't say what offended them -- all he could say was that their bitterness was what was keeping them from returning. I don't think there are too many alternatives to that explanation to be gained from a worker -- which perfectly translates into a warning to the friends to distance themselves from that bitter spirit or you will catch it yourself and it will be the ruin of you. But both the worker and the friends are painfully unaware of what is REALLY going on – and I can’t find it in my heard to excuse ignorance as non-responsibility. “Bitter” is the response to an abuser shunned. It’s like the wife who finally leaves before she loses her mind. Of course, the husband has no idea why she’s left because he has done everything he can to keep her safe – and “help” her make their home a model home. What he’s truly ignorant of is the fact that good marriages aren’t about appearances and isolation from all distracting influences – it’s about respecting the other person for the person he/she is, not reforming them into someone who will reflect positively on oneself, and guaranteeing that they have no empathy except from him. It is prison guards who are supposed to be reforming people to reflect more positively on the society – which among equals is an abusive attitude. So for the man who is in prison for the rest of his life with no chance of parole, he has absolutely nothing left to lose. It makes no difference whatsoever to him what he does, except if he can escape his abusers. But the madness that develops with such a situation manifests itself as bitterness on the prisoner’s part when he is confronted with how he has disrupted the peace of the prison he is in. For the abused, a bitter experience is usually what provides them with the will to escape – and the bitterness is not with their relationship with their fellow prisoners – it’s with the people who are making their lives intolerable. The workers should not be telling the friends that exes are bitter about the rest of the friends. That’s nothing more than an attempt to further isolate the person from the rest of the flock, which is the abuse of last resort. It’s interesting to read in the Bible about the bitter experiences that some people passed through.
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Post by joanna on Aug 13, 2015 17:23:24 GMT -5
It is interesting that the term "bitter" is still surviving. I recall my mother referring to those who left as being bitter. It is a defense erected against self and broader analysis. Deceiving yourself that the people who leave a belief do so for relatively superficial reasons such as "they are offended" protects the fundamental issues; it is a superficial response by believers.
It behoves those who believe in the supernatural of any religious denomination to invent further concepts to protect themselves and "bitterness" is yet another figment of the imagination: 'layers upon layers of imaginings'.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 13, 2015 17:33:45 GMT -5
Like "cult", "bitter" is a word that has practically lost its meaning. It's primary use is a bludgeon to beat others with.
Then there is the slight possibility that someone is actually bitter - that they've piled up a heap of carefully selected negatives like dry bones and live under them like some sort of troll. If your diet is one of constant negatives you will get bitter, you are what you eat, life is what you make it. These trolls only come out to attack others with whichever negative is the easiest to grab on the way.
I'm the second type. I have lots of company. We are legion.
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Post by fixit on Aug 13, 2015 17:36:04 GMT -5
Jesse - the interesting thing is that from what I've seen is that there are many people who relate to the activist over the top ex members. I don't know but I imagine you would put Doug Parker in this category based on what he wrote. However, while Doug would have been satan personified to many professing folk he was just a regular guy who was focussed on exposing a history that had been clearly lied about. He was far from bitter and twisted to those who knew him. Likewise some may put Elizabeth Coleman in this category but I have seen dozens of notes of thanks to Elizabeth from ex members who can totally relate to what she wrote.i know Elizabeth and she like Doug is just a regular, very pleasant person who clearly is motivated by worker behaviour that is far from sound. It obviously depends on ones perspective but I would simply say that what youi would call activist over the top ex members are motivated by the poor behaviour or dishonesty of a few senior leaders in the group which they have personally experienced - and they choose to research or pen it. I've never written anything officially under my own name and don't intend to but similarly I am motivated to talk to others by being told by our head worker that I had blasphemed by questioning him about what he had spoken in a sermon which went to heart of the groups teaching. Just some thoughts. With respect to exposing lies and abuse (emotional, spiritual, sexual, etc.) exes fill a useful role because workers are either unable or unwilling to receive feedback from existing members of the fellowship. However, exes do their cause a disservice when they condemn F&W on doctrine.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 17:46:16 GMT -5
It is interesting that the term "bitter" is still surviving. I recall my mother referring to those who left as being bitter. It is a defense erected against self and broader analysis. Deceiving yourself that the people who leave a belief do so for relatively superficial reasons such as "they are offended" protects the fundamental issues; it is a superficial response by believers. It behoves those who believe in the supernatural of any religious denomination to invent further concepts to protect themselves and "bitterness" is yet another figment of the imagination: 'layers upon layers of imaginings'. Factually and logically wrong. Sorry. Many who leave our church are NOT bitter. It is sometimes asked "are they bitter?" and we can say yes or no. It is NOT a quote, "defense erected against self and broader analysis." Bitter is bitter. End of story. It is YOU who is being superficial, and yes, a suggestion of your OWN bitterness.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 17:47:20 GMT -5
Re the TLT I am reminded of what Jesus said about apostates: "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. "Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."
And then you see people behaving in a way they never did, or would dream of doing, before. "Apostates", I like that word Bert, I put it in the same category as "cult". An apostate is a person. A cult is a religion. You have no idea how some of those professing women get the hairdos they get -- they've got the workers totally fooled. Have you ever gone to the mall in a skirt when it's -20 degrees. Shame shame. Ever have a sister worker come to your house after a gospel meeting and ask for a beer? Aren't you pure?
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Aug 13, 2015 17:48:30 GMT -5
oh how bitter It’s interesting to read in the Bible about the bitter experiences that some people passed through. Indeed, it is. I just finished a 10 week bible study looking at an overview of the words and lives of the OT prophets during some extremely dark periods. To quote from the study: the prophets lives were full of hurts and sorrows, and they spoke to Israel during many times of deep darkness and struggle. Their messages include some of the most raw and brutally honest sections of the Bible. But through them God also communicated the hope of His character, His love for His people, and His promises. The words of the prophets are powerful words of hope, written "for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope." (Romans 15:4)" Like you Bob, I find the word "bitter" interesting--and not at all helpful. Some folks have gone through some bitter experiences and these experiences have caused them to feel or sound bitter, or at least very sensitive to the issues that hurt them. My thinking these days is that constantly harping about the perceived bitterness helps no one, but a listening ear and a non-judgmental response might go along way to help heal the hurt. Sure, maybe hearing the same thing over and over again gets tiring, but so far I haven't seen that rejecting the message or the messenger has helped mitigate the bitterness or ameliorate the person's hurt. Yes, some do seem a 'little over the top," but as the old saying goes "vas you der Charlie?" I have nothing to be bitter about, so the shoe doesn't fit (of course, I don't know what people are saying about me know that I've left ), so I can't speak to the feeling, but I can understand being aggravated that the message is constantly being diverted to "it wasn't that bad; you're just bitter; or why can't you just get over it?" Sure, the fellowship is full of good people: so is the world at large. And the same thing applies in reverse. My Mom never really got over the fact that none of the friends or workers would come see Dad while he was dying because it was during convention. She often said "make sure you don't die during convention, you'll die alone." It hurt her deeply as she'd always "bragged" to her unprofessing relatives about how she could count on "her" friends to be there through thick and thin. At first, that used to strike me as a tad "bitter," but as I listened I could hear she felt that her trust had been betrayed to some extent at the time she needed it most, and I could just listen and encourage her in Christ when this would come up. It wasn't often, but when she was feeling down, it bothered her. Someone referenced a book I have, the title of which is "listening is an act of love." That isn't always easy, especially for me, but I'm being taught by the indwelling Spirit--sometimes by how I want to respond to posts that annoy me.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 17:49:05 GMT -5
Jesse - the interesting thing is that from what I've seen is that there are many people who relate to the activist over the top ex members. I don't know but I imagine you would put Doug Parker in this category based on what he wrote. However, while Doug would have been satan personified to many professing folk he was just a regular guy who was focussed on exposing a history that had been clearly lied about. He was far from bitter and twisted to those who knew him. Likewise some may put Elizabeth Coleman in this category but I have seen dozens of notes of thanks to Elizabeth from ex members who can totally relate to what she wrote.i know Elizabeth and she like Doug is just a regular, very pleasant person who clearly is motivated by worker behaviour that is far from sound. It obviously depends on ones perspective but I would simply say that what youi would call activist over the top ex members are motivated by the poor behaviour or dishonesty of a few senior leaders in the group which they have personally experienced - and they choose to research or pen it. I've never written anything officially under my own name and don't intend to but similarly I am motivated to talk to others by being told by our head worker that I had blasphemed by questioning him about what he had spoken in a sermon which went to heart of the groups teaching. Just some thoughts. With respect to exposing lies and abuse (emotional, spiritual, sexual, etc.) exes fill a useful role because workers are either unable or unwilling to receive feedback from existing members of the fellowship. However, exes do their cause a disservice when they condemn F&W on doctrine. As the old Indian would say -- forked tongue white man.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Aug 13, 2015 17:50:01 GMT -5
It is interesting that the term "bitter" is still surviving. I recall my mother referring to those who left as being bitter. It is a defense erected against self and broader analysis. Deceiving yourself that the people who leave a belief do so for relatively superficial reasons such as "they are offended" protects the fundamental issues; it is a superficial response by believers. It behoves those who believe in the supernatural of any religious denomination to invent further concepts to protect themselves and "bitterness" is yet another figment of the imagination: 'layers upon layers of imaginings'. Yes, that was the explanation always given to me when others left, but if I asked why, I received a rather ambiguous answer. Mom used to say "I don't know, I just have heard they are bitter." She was, fortunately, not happy with the explanation and worried about the folks who left in a kind way.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 13, 2015 17:51:01 GMT -5
It is interesting that the term "bitter" is still surviving. I recall my mother referring to those who left as being bitter. It is a defense erected against self and broader analysis. Deceiving yourself that the people who leave a belief do so for relatively superficial reasons such as "they are offended" protects the fundamental issues; it is a superficial response by believers. It behoves those who believe in the supernatural of any religious denomination to invent further concepts to protect themselves and "bitterness" is yet another figment of the imagination: 'layers upon layers of imaginings'. Factually and logically wrong. Sorry. Many who leave our church are NOT bitter. It is sometimes asked "are they bitter?" and we can say yes or no. It is NOT a quote, "defense erected against self and broader analysis." Bitter is bitter. End of story. It is you who is being superficial, and yes, a suggestion of your your own bitterness.Wow bert that cuts like a hot knife through butter. It's probably a majority of exes that are not bitter. Like is usually the case it's the few that ruin it for all the others! It's so bad some exes end up being more bitter about it than we innes are!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 17:56:08 GMT -5
It is interesting that the term "bitter" is still surviving. I recall my mother referring to those who left as being bitter. It is a defense erected against self and broader analysis. Deceiving yourself that the people who leave a belief do so for relatively superficial reasons such as "they are offended" protects the fundamental issues; it is a superficial response by believers. It behoves those who believe in the supernatural of any religious denomination to invent further concepts to protect themselves and "bitterness" is yet another figment of the imagination: 'layers upon layers of imaginings'. Emotional abuse -- isolating the perceived offender from loved ones.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 13, 2015 17:57:44 GMT -5
I think we need to classify "abuse" - is it the result of microagression or macroaggression? Or aggression at all?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 17:58:10 GMT -5
It is interesting that the term "bitter" is still surviving. I recall my mother referring to those who left as being bitter. It is a defense erected against self and broader analysis. Deceiving yourself that the people who leave a belief do so for relatively superficial reasons such as "they are offended" protects the fundamental issues; it is a superficial response by believers. It behoves those who believe in the supernatural of any religious denomination to invent further concepts to protect themselves and "bitterness" is yet another figment of the imagination: 'layers upon layers of imaginings'. Factually and logically wrong. Sorry. Many who leave our church are NOT bitter. It is sometimes asked "are they bitter?" and we can say yes or no. It is NOT a quote, "defense erected against self and broader analysis." Bitter is bitter. End of story. It is you who is being superficial, and yes, a suggestion of your your own bitterness.For crying out loud, Bert -- read about some bitter experiences in the Bible. Did you know that the name Mary = bitter?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 13, 2015 18:01:48 GMT -5
Factually and logically wrong. Sorry. Many who leave our church are NOT bitter. It is sometimes asked "are they bitter?" and we can say yes or no. It is NOT a quote, "defense erected against self and broader analysis." Bitter is bitter. End of story. It is you who is being superficial, and yes, a suggestion of your your own bitterness. For crying out loud, Bert -- read about some bitter experiences in the Bible. Did you know that the name Mary = bitter? A bitter experience does not have to make the person who had the experience bitter. People do not automatically become bitter simply because they went though a bitter experience. Becoming or being bitter is stand-alone personal and free will choice. We are impressed and inspired by people who deliberately choose to not be bitter about bitter experiences that was not their choice.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 18:03:04 GMT -5
I think we need to classify "abuse" - is it the result of microagression or macroaggression? Or aggression at all? Physical abuse = macro aggression, recognizable and criminal Emotional abuse = micro aggression, usually understood as gentle forms of tough love.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 18:13:40 GMT -5
For crying out loud, Bert -- read about some bitter experiences in the Bible. Did you know that the name Mary = bitter? A bitter experience does not have to make the person who had the experience bitter. I think becoming or being bitter is a personal and free will choice. That depends on your definition of bitter. But because you said that, one can tell that you're an ex. When a worker describes someone as bitter it's normally because the ex has disagreed with him -- you don't really have to tell them off to be considered bitter, just refuse to accept their evaluation of you.
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Post by fred on Aug 13, 2015 18:14:58 GMT -5
"Apostates", I like that word Bert, I put it in the same category as "cult". An apostate is a person. A cult is a religion. You have no idea how some of those professing women get the hairdos they get -- they've got the workers totally fooled. Have you ever gone to the mall in a skirt when it's -20 degrees. Shame shame. Ever have a sister worker come to your house after a gospel meeting and ask for a beer? Aren't you pure? Oh dear, sarcasm fail.
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2015 18:25:14 GMT -5
It is interesting that the term "bitter" is still surviving. I recall my mother referring to those who left as being bitter. It is a defense erected against self and broader analysis. Deceiving yourself that the people who leave a belief do so for relatively superficial reasons such as "they are offended" protects the fundamental issues; it is a superficial response by believers. It behoves those who believe in the supernatural of any religious denomination to invent further concepts to protect themselves and "bitterness" is yet another figment of the imagination: 'layers upon layers of imaginings'. Factually and logically wrong. Sorry. Many who leave our church are NOT bitter. It is sometimes asked "are they bitter?" and we can say yes or no. It is NOT a quote, "defense erected against self and broader analysis." Bitter is bitter. End of story. It is you who is being superficial, and yes, a suggestion of your your own bitterness.Bitter may be bitter but there is usually a reason. Do you ever put any effort into understanding what caused 'bitter' in the first place? It's easy to just dismiss someone, their experience and their feelings, with a label and carry on, no wiser as to why they are what you have labelled them.
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Post by rational on Aug 13, 2015 18:30:33 GMT -5
Generally people will stay in situations until the point when the cost exceeds the benefit. At that point, when looking back, the only parts seen are the costs. If you have invested in a car that has had nothing but problem after problem - new engine, expensive transmission repair, new brakes, etc. - it is a rare person who looks back and comments on how wonderfully round the tires were. I think these are known as Fiat enthusiasts! There should be a fiat issued against this kind of comment.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 18:38:36 GMT -5
An apostate is a person. A cult is a religion. You have no idea how some of those professing women get the hairdos they get -- they've got the workers totally fooled. Have you ever gone to the mall in a skirt when it's -20 degrees. Shame shame. Ever have a sister worker come to your house after a gospel meeting and ask for a beer? Aren't you pure? Oh dear, sarcasm fail. Careful -- the Christians don't like satire.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 18:58:50 GMT -5
What I find amusing about the triumphalism of Western atheism is what comes with it. You see some of this in our crime figures, falling birthrate and resurgent Islam rushing in through immigration, conversion, war and demographics - knowing all too well that the West "doesn't have the stomach anymore for the fight."
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2015 19:21:46 GMT -5
What I find amusing about the triumphalism of Western atheism is what comes with it. You see some of this in our crime figures, falling birthrate and resurgent Islam rushing to through immigration, conversion, war and demographics - knowing all too well that the West "doesn't have the stomach anymore for the fight." Help, the sky is falling the sky is falling. Grab your helmets.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 19:42:21 GMT -5
Maybe more real than she thinks. I wonder if Islam will be to the Gentiles what the Romans were to the Jews?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 13, 2015 20:06:46 GMT -5
Factually and logically wrong. Sorry. Many who leave our church are NOT bitter. It is sometimes asked "are they bitter?" and we can say yes or no. It is NOT a quote, "defense erected against self and broader analysis." Bitter is bitter. End of story. It is you who is being superficial, and yes, a suggestion of your your own bitterness. Bitter may be bitter but there is usually a reason. Do you ever put any effort into understanding what caused 'bitter' in the first place? It's easy to just dismiss someone, their experience and their feelings, with a label and carry on, no wiser as to why they are what you have labelled them. Exactly snow, it is easy to stand back & judge, but have no understanding of what that person has been through, an example of this is bert's view on single mothers !
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Post by fixit on Aug 13, 2015 20:12:45 GMT -5
Maybe more real than she thinks. I wonder if Islam will be to the Gentiles what the Romans were to the Jews? Hundreds of Islamist sleeper cells spread across Europe via immigration could make 9/11 seem pretty minor if activated at the same time.
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Post by fixit on Aug 13, 2015 20:46:10 GMT -5
With respect to exposing lies and abuse (emotional, spiritual, sexual, etc.) exes fill a useful role because workers are either unable or unwilling to receive feedback from existing members of the fellowship. However, exes do their cause a disservice when they condemn F&W on doctrine. Understand your view but most of the exit letters I have seen over the past 15 years indicate that doctrinal issues are the no. 1 reason why people leave. That's good. Doctrinal issues should be the no. 1 reason why people leave. Horses for courses.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 13, 2015 21:34:15 GMT -5
That depends on your definition of bitter. But because you said that, one can tell that you're an ex. I'm not sure I'm reading that right but I'm not an exe.
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