savedbyblood
Junior Member
Eventually we'll figure it all out!
Posts: 57
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Post by savedbyblood on Sept 4, 2007 0:47:48 GMT -5
N)The workers do NOT believe Jesus is God the Father but God the Son or the Son of God.
So does that mean that the workers believe Jesus to be only 1/3 or 1/2 GOD?
Let us not be confused by Jesus the Son of God vs. Jesus Born of Mary. Mary's Conception is considered "Immaculate." Why would God the Father have any need of a female egg with which to use to create a Zygote in Mary's womb? If God did this why would it make Jesus less than fully God (the Son) and fully man? I believe that God can completely control the Universe. What is so difficult in determining the outcome of a pregnancy?
Some of you guys just love to pick nits and try to second guess the Most High God, the Father.
(N)The workers believe Jesus was with God the Father before the foundation of the universe or the earth.
So does that mean the workers believe that Jesus is not God, made by God or 1/2 GOD?
The Bible does state that Jesus is God. (Thomas: "My Lord and my God.") Jesus did not deny this or correct Thomas. In fact when Thomas said this he was confirmed as a believer!
(N)The workers believe it's Jesus, the Son of God who SAVES us and this is VERY important to know and believe for Salvation.
So do all other Christians but they also understand Jesus is GOD
Maybe some day all of the 2by2's will come around. When they do, will you be willing to give up the pleasures of life (TV, PG-13 and worse movies, worship as the 2by2s do?)
1Tm:3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Jesus IS GOD the SON, so what's the big deal if if Paul did not differentiate between the two? Go complain to Paul, not the 2by2's!
(N)The workers believe Jesus is Son of God. Jesus' heavenly Father is God so wouldn't that make the Son Jesus as God who has all attributes, characteristic as the Father?
Now you have it! Which Worker ever told you that Jesus was less than His Father? I need to know so I can excommunicate him (or her).
So does that make Jesus only 1/2 or 1/3 GOD? Which part do the workers believe; 1/2 or 1/3?
There you go with the Genetics thing again! You need to get human reproduction off your mind in order to better understand this deep subject. Besides, if Jesus was was only 1/3 God then there must have been a threesome between God, Spirit and Mary. You are one weird person!
The Father is God so wouldn't you say His Son Jesus is God too, right?
Yep!
Of Course so why are you playing word games with the Deity of Jesus being fully God as the second person of the Godhead? This is the point the workers do not agree on and you yourself know it. The workers have a mix of gnostic and arian beliefs. Until this is clear someone is teaching heresy. The first Epistle of John makes clear this false teaching. The first Epistle of John is about the "Trinity" which is denied by the workers.
Ar·i·an·ism
NOUN:
The doctrines of Arius, denying that Jesus was of the same substance as God and holding instead that he was only the highest of created beings, viewed as heretical by most Christian churches.
2by2's certanly do not practice Arianism. We do believe that as followers of Jesus Christ we will be falsly accused. Thanks for assuring me that Jesus Word is True.
Gnostic
ADJECTIVE:
gnostic Of, relating to, or possessing intellectual or spiritual knowledge.
Of or relating to Gnosticism.
This time I must thank you for the compliment!
I see that you have learned to use a thesaurus, youngling. Soon you will see that the Rebellion leads to the Dark Side... Use the Force for Good and become a Jedi for Jesus...
OK, all joking aside, I do not believe that you have enough information to truly make an informed decision about what the 2by2's believe and are only out to score brownie points by starting the next big argument.
You pick on points of deep understanding which have not been revealed to all. Even you seem to have a difficult time keeping God the Father above all in Power in the conception of Jesus Christ on the earth. We weren't there and the ones who were just wanted to worship the Christ Child.
Picky, picky, picky!
Peace in Him,
SBB
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 7:08:32 GMT -5
Do Not Believe in the "INCARNATION". They do not teach the "INCARNATION".
And speak about dumb people thinking they know what Gnostics are?
Try this one out.
Gnosticism in contrast to Christianity and Judaism
Gnosticism is one of the oldest known religions, and its origin is traced back to 539 B.C. Gnostics have been harshly criticized since the beginning of their religion, and Gnosticism has adapted to different cultures’ beliefs throughout history (Arendzen). The term “gnosis” means “knowledge,” the basis of Gnosticism.
However, Gnosticism is not based on factual or rational thought. Instead, it is based on the relational knowledge of God, and it also heavily focuses on the divine and spiritual nature within oneself (“Gnosticism”). Although it is difficult to define Gnosticism, one of the best definitions describes it as a mixture of “rites and myths from a variety of religious traditions, combining Occultism, Oriental mysticism, astrology, magic, elements of Jewish tradition, Christian views of redemption, and even aspects of Plato’s doctrine…” (What).
Gnostics believe that they are “chosen” by the true God to know the “real” truth, and they have an interesting but often contradictory view of the origin of life and life after death, in comparison to Judaism and Christianity.
The Gnostic Creation myth varies greatly from the Christian Creation myth, in the facet that they do not believe that God created the world. Gnostics believe that the true God has a feminine side which represents the Spirit part of God and is referred to as Sophia. The true God and Sophia had intimate relations, and from these relations Jesus was born. The true God, Sophia, and Jesus are believed to be the Holy Trinity, contradictory to Christian belief. Because Jesus was in the same form as the true God, Sophia wanted to create a being in her image. She pursued the idea without permission from the true God, but when he (later named Demiurge) was born, he was imperfect so she hid him in the clouds from the other immortals. Even though he was born imperfect, Demiurge was born with some power from Sophia, and he used this power to create the physical world, Earth (What).
Contrary to Jewish belief, the Gnostics believe that Demiurge was the God referred to as Jehovah in the Old Testament scriptures (What). Jehovah is thought of as evil, jealous, rigid, uncompassionate, and genocidal (Hoeller/What). They also believe that the Christian and Jewish Creation myth is a fallacy. Jews and Christians believe that humans are sinful by nature because of the wrongdoings committed by Adam and Eve. The Gnostics, however, believe that because Demiurge was an imperfect being, Earth was created imperfectly. “The blame for the world’s failings lies not with humans, but with the creator” (Hoeller/Gnostic). Therefore, Gnostics believe that Adam and Eve were born into a sinful nature because of Demiurge’s imperfectness and it is because of his imperfectness that they ate the apple (Hoeller/Gnostic).
Gnostics also contradict both Jews and Christians with their belief about the nature of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Almost all Gnostic sects view the serpent as a good character, and some sects even honor the serpent in their services. Unlike Jewish and Christian beliefs, the Gnostics viewed the serpent as the liberator who brought knowledge, or gnosis, to Adam and Eve which made them fully human, rather than viewing the serpent as the seducer who led Adam and Eve into their sinful nature (Gnosticism: Ancient).
The Gnostic’s belief in Jesus also contradicts with the Christian’s belief in Jesus. Christians believe that Jesus is the holy Savior who was born of the Virgin Mary. Also, they believe that if they truly believe Jesus is the Son of God, they will spend Eternal Life in Heaven and escape the flames of Hell. However, Gnostics believe that Jesus, just like the serpent, is simply a liberator or revealer of knowledge (Gnosticism: Ancient). They also believe that “Jesus entered Mary’s body via sexual intercourse between Mary and Joseph” (What).
According to Christians, Jesus was sent to be crucified for our transgressions, but Gnostics however, believe that Jesus was sent to spread the knowledge of the true God. Jesus’ knowledge is not believed to be what the Christian church professes as truth. Instead, it is believed that the Gnostic gospels, written in the third century but discovered in 1945, reveal Christ’s true message.
Actually, the Gnostics do not even believe that Jesus was a “real” person. They believe that Jesus was a pure spirit who had a phantom body and only appeared human to his believers (Hoeller/What).
Gnostics believe that true knowledge is the only way to gain salvation. However, contradictory to Christian beliefs, Gnostics don’t believe that just anyone can receive salvation. Rather, they believe that within every person is a fragment of the true God’s soul, and it is called the “divine spark.” Gnostics believe that the true God chooses who will gain true knowledge by choosing to light their “divine spark.” This leads to the next colossal difference between Christianity and Gnosticism (Hoeller/Gnostic).
Christians believe that after death each individual will be judged by God, and that person will either be allowed to enter Heaven or be cast into the depths of Hell. In contrast, Gnostics believe that death allows them to escape from the confinement of their bodies. After death, they believe that one of three things will take place, and these possibilities are 1) those that are spiritual will be saved because of their behavior on earth, 2) those that could have been saved but didn’t follow the Gnostic path are reincarnated back into the world, and 3) those who aren’t chosen by the true God are considered hopelessly lost and are eternally damned (Gnosticism: Ancient).
Lastly, both Christians and Jews are against the use of magic or psychic powers in order to gain power or knowledge. The Gnostics, however, believe that only with a complete knowledge of certain magical formulas and spells could a Gnostic enter the realm of the true God. Gnostics also believe that psychics are almost on the right religious path, but that psychics don’t fully understand the message of the true God (Arendzen).
Gnostics believe that they are “chosen” by the true God to know the “real” truth, and they have an interesting but often contradictory view of the origin of life and life after death, in comparison to Judaism and Christianity. They believe that Jesus was born of Sophia and the true God, and also that Sophia had an imperfect son named Demiurge who created Earth (What). They also believe that it is because of Demiurge’s imperfectness that human are sinful by nature, rather than the result of Adam and Eve eating an apple (Hoeller/Gnostic). They also view the serpent as a liberator of the human mind to true knowledge, rather than a seducer of the human soul to sinful nature (Gnosticism: Ancient). Gnostics believe that Jesus is a revealer of truth, rather than a crucified Savior, and they believe that this was revealed to them in the Gnostic Gospels (Hoeller/What). Gnostics believe that the true God chooses whether or not to light an individual’s “divine spark,” thus allowing them to gain the true knowledge of Him (Hoeller/Gnostic). Gnostics believe that one of three possibilities will occur after death. They believe that they will either be accepted into the true God’s realm because of their knowledge about him, reincarnated in order to gain the full knowledge of the true God instead of only partial knowledge, or cast into Hell because they are hopelessly lost (Gnosticism: Ancient). Lastly, Gnostics believe that in order to have a complete knowledge of the true God and to enter into the true God’s realm, one must learn certain magical formulas and spells (Arendzen). Gnosticism has lasted for many centuries, and it has adapted to many different cultures throughout time. I’m sure many theologians are interested to see which culture the Gnostics will adapt to next.
Works Cited
Arendzen, J.P. “Gnosticism.” 2004. 13 May 05 .
Thanks for showing that the 2x2's are in confusion and contridictions in understanding.
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 7:13:51 GMT -5
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Post by Nathan9 on Sept 4, 2007 7:24:15 GMT -5
To the Workers and Yuppers:
Can both of you explain this to us with your own words what does the word "Incarnation" means according to you? Thanks in advance.
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 8:15:06 GMT -5
To the Workers and Yuppers:
Can both of you explain this to us with your own words what does the word "Incarnation" means according to you? Thanks in advance. GOD WITH US 23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. |
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Post by Nathan9 on Sept 4, 2007 8:31:48 GMT -5
To the Workers and Yuppers:
Can both of you explain this to us with your own words what does the word "Incarnation" means according to you? Thanks in advance. GOD WITH US 23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Is that Incarnation according to you? a simple answer Yes or No would be good enough. Thanks. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 8:38:15 GMT -5
A while back a worker expressed the belief that Jesus the Son was a created being. Do you support that belief Nathan?
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 8:49:29 GMT -5
GOD WITH US 23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Is that Incarnation according to you? a simple answer Yes or No would be good enough. Thanks.Do you believe Matthew 1:23? A simply yes or no would be good enough. Thank in advance |
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Post by Nathan9 on Sept 4, 2007 9:15:52 GMT -5
A while back a worker expressed the belief that Jesus the Son was a created being. Do you support that belief Nathan? |
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Post by Nathan9 on Sept 4, 2007 9:18:25 GMT -5
Thanks. I know Most of the workers preach, teach Jesus came from heaven and he existed with God the Father in heaven before the foundation of the world and 2,000 yrs ago he was begotten by the Holy Spirit and Marry as the Son of Man and the Son of God Jesus Christ.
Is that Incarnation according to you? a simple answer Yes or No would be good enough. Thanks. Do you believe Matthew 1:23? A simply yes or no would be good enough. Thank in advance
Now, can you answer my question to you, please. Thanks. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 9:44:15 GMT -5
No, I do not believe Jesus was a created being. How could Jesus be a created being when he already "existed" in heaven/eternity as the Almighty God/Yahweh I AM that I AM with God the Father before the founadation of the world? I agree. So what should a person do about a worker who is teaching heresy? I challenged him with a lot of scripture but he is blind and his doctrine is still heretical. Now what? |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 9:47:06 GMT -5
Do you believe Matthew 1:23? A simply yes or no would be good enough. Thank in advance
Now, can you answer my question to you, please. Thanks.You are playing word games. Is Jesus 100% God or only 1/3 God? God is God. All three are in agreement, Yes? Yet you still are trying to make Jesus less then 100% God by dividing the three persons. Let us look and the Johanan statement.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. The three agree in the One. Jesus said: "I and my Father are one". I believe you are arguing with yourself. To make a distinction of Jesus GOD the SON does not mean Jesus is any the less 100% GOD. I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Is it that Jesus is less then God because He is the SON? IF so then you better go back to your website and change a few things. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 9:50:04 GMT -5
No, I do not believe Jesus was a created being. How could Jesus be a created being when he already "existed" in heaven/eternity as the Almighty God/Yahweh I AM that I AM with God the Father before the founadation of the world? I agree. So what should a person do about a worker who is teaching heresy? I challenged him with a lot of scripture but he is blind and his doctrine is still heretical. Now what? That is exactly what happened to me. I am no longer in meeting because of this. You also must understand that these teachings are linked to the Grace + concept. Hence, Onlywayism. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 9:52:56 GMT -5
GOD WITH US 23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Is that Incarnation according to you? a simple answer Yes or No would be good enough. Thanks. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 10:01:45 GMT -5
That is exactly what happened to me. I am no longer in meeting because of this. You also must understand that these teachings are linked to the Grace + concept. Hence, Onlywayism. I believe F&W theology is faulty in several key areas: Misunderstanding/incomprehension of the severity of sin and the fall of Adam. The deity of Jesus. Jesus's "ministry". GRACE. The result is onlywayism, and that's the F&W belief I have the most problem with. I despise it. (Not the people, but the belief.) |
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Post by Clearday on Sept 4, 2007 10:10:06 GMT -5
That is exactly what happened to me. I am no longer in meeting because of this. You also must understand that these teachings are linked to the Grace + concept. Hence, Onlywayism. I believe F&W theology is faulty in several key areas: Misunderstanding/incomprehension of the severity of sin and the fall of Adam. The deity of Jesus. Jesus's "ministry". GRACE. The result is onlywayism, and that's the F&W belief I have the most problem with. I despise it. (Not the people, but the belief.) While I equally despise the Onlywayism concept and even consider it evil(because of what it produces), I view it was coming from a different, simpler origin. I see it as originating from the focus on human form, mainly the form of the ministry but also the form of the meeting in the home. It has been the format that has always been the foundation of "proof" that we are the Only Way. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 10:15:51 GMT -5
If Jesus is Truth, then all error, (false doctrine, including form) will stem from a faulty understanding of who Jesus really is. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
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Post by Clearday on Sept 4, 2007 10:51:20 GMT -5
If Jesus is Truth, then all error, (false doctrine, including form) will stem from a faulty understanding of who Jesus really is. It doesn't get any simpler than that. Coming to the understanding that Jesus is God, or Jesus is Truth, may not make any difference and could be worse and I will explain why. Now they say: "Jesus the Son of God said that you must go 2x2." Next they may say "Jesus is God (the Son) and he said that you must go 2x2." The second case on Onlywayism would become more entrenched than the first. |
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Post by Nathan9 on Sept 4, 2007 12:09:11 GMT -5
No, I do not believe Jesus was a created being. How could Jesus be a created being when he already "existed" in heaven/eternity as the Almighty God/Yahweh I AM that I AM with God the Father before the founadation of the world? I agree. So what should a person do about a worker who is teaching heresy? I challenged him with a lot of scripture but he is blind and his doctrine is still heretical. Now what? |
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Post by Nathan9 on Sept 4, 2007 12:14:06 GMT -5
Yes, I believe in Matthew 1:23 The Almighty God/Yahweh the I AM that I AM in (NOT God the Father) the Old Testament "incarnated" Himself as the Son of Man and the Son of God in the New Testament.
Now, can you answer my question to you, please. Thanks. You are playing word games. Is Jesus 100% God or only 1/3 God? God is God. All three are in agreement, Yes? Yet you still are trying to make Jesus less then 100% God by dividing the three persons. Let us look and the Johanan statement.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. The three agree in the One. Jesus said: "I and my Father are one". I believe you are arguing with yourself. To make a distinction of Jesus GOD the SON does not mean Jesus is any the less 100% GOD. I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Is it that Jesus is less then God because He is the SON? IF so then you better go back to your website and change a few things.
We can discuss any of your Godhead, 3 in one question or whatever but please! PICK one handle or name and stick with it... this way I know I am writing to the same person so I don't get a headache from trying to figure out is this the same person or the multi-anonymous hit-run person. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 12:41:58 GMT -5
You are playing word games. Is Jesus 100% God or only 1/3 God? God is God. All three are in agreement, Yes? Yet you still are trying to make Jesus less then 100% God by dividing the three persons. Let us look and the Johanan statement.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. The three agree in the One. Jesus said: "I and my Father are one". I believe you are arguing with yourself. To make a distinction of Jesus GOD the SON does not mean Jesus is any the less 100% GOD. I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Is it that Jesus is less then God because He is the SON? IF so then you better go back to your website and change a few things.
We can discuss any of your Godhead, 3 in one question or whatever but please! PICK one handle or name and stick with it... this way I know I am writing to the same person so I don't get a headache from trying to figure out is this the same person or the multi-anonymous hit-run person.Oh don't be so stupid N9. You know very well I have firm grip on the subject. The 1/2,1/3 issues were put forth in questions. I never said I believed in any of the sort. You are the one that is fliping all over the place. Either Jesus is God or not. Which is it. Yes or no? You know very well the Trinty is not taught or believed by the workers so when you make an issue of (God the Son) vs God the Father you are slanting you beliefs to fit the 2x2 thinking. Your web sites have most if not all of my references to support the Three persons of the Trinity. As I said you are arguing with yourself. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 12:49:18 GMT -5
Forebear one another.
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Post by Nathan9 on Sept 4, 2007 12:56:33 GMT -5
~~~ Mutli- anonymous names or whoever you're ... According to many of your posts it seems you don't understand the Godhead. Christ's Deity. Jesus 1/2 or 1/3 God is faulty and incorrect thinking. It is very simple to understand but you make it so complicated and too confusing.
We can discuss any of your Godhead, 3 in one question or whatever but please! PICK one handle or name and stick with it... this way I know I am writing to the same person so I don't get a headache from trying to figure out is this the same person or the multi-anonymous hit-run person. Oh don't be so stupid N9. You know very well I have firm grip on the subject. The 1/2,1/3 issues were put forth in questions. I never said I believed in any of the sort. You are the one that is fliping all over the place. Either Jesus is God or not. Which is it. Yes or no? ~~~ Why are you keep on changing your handles? Pick one and stick with it. The answer to your question. Yes, Jesus is God (the Son NOT God the Father).2) You know very well the Trinty is not taught or believed by the workers so when you make an issue of (God the Son) vs God the Father you are slanting you beliefs to fit the 2x2 thinking. Your web sites have most if not all of my references to support the Three persons of the Trinity. As I said you are arguing with yourself.
Can you explain that hit-run anonymous? |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 12:58:28 GMT -5
You know very well the Trinty is not taught or believed by the workers This is a fact, although I would qualify it by adding majority. Most would be unable to accurately summarize what the Trinity IS. Bert for example thinks the Trinity is a Catholic doctrine rather than a biblical doctrine. No matter how many times Nathan says it's so, it doesn't make it so. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 13:03:58 GMT -5
~~~ How can the workers don't believe in the TRINITY or believe in Christ's DEITY.... when I know the workers PREACH, PRAY and TEACH God the Father, Jesus the Son of God who came from heaven and exist before the foundation of the world was created,
As I stated earlier Nathan, a certain worker (whom you know) expressed quite clearly the OPPOSITE view. How do you explain that? Is it heresy? The fact is, as the topic of this whole thread is titled, the workers often DO contradict themselves. I've heard them (contradictions) many times myself. |
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 13:05:10 GMT -5
Here we go again.
Bert is adamant that the trinity is a Catholic (ie, false) doctrine.
Nathan is adamant that the workers believe and teach the trinity, which according to bert is a false doctrine.
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Post by timber on Sept 4, 2007 13:07:40 GMT -5
I was lectured by a worker for asking him why he had said in a gospel meeting that Jesus was not from everlasting to everlasting. I told him that I thought this was not correct. This question of mine was never answered - instead I was told that I didn't get it and needed a revelation of truth.
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2007 13:10:32 GMT -5
I was lectured by a worker for asking him why he had said in a gospel meeting that Jesus was not from everlasting to everlasting. I told him that I thought this was not correct. This question of mine was never answered - instead I was told that I didn't get it and needed a revelation of truth. I would submit that hearing the worker say that would qualify as having a real "relevation of truth" and seeing that you needed to get the heck away from such teaching. |
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