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Post by junia on Sept 4, 2007 9:44:15 GMT -5
No, I do not believe Jesus was a created being. How could Jesus be a created being when he already "existed" in heaven/eternity as the Almighty God/Yahweh I AM that I AM with God the Father before the founadation of the world? I agree. So what should a person do about a worker who is teaching heresy? I challenged him with a lot of scripture but he is blind and his doctrine is still heretical. Now what?
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Post by You on Sept 4, 2007 9:47:06 GMT -5
Do you believe Matthew 1:23? A simply yes or no would be good enough. Thank in advance Yes, I believe in Matthew 1:23 The Almighty God/Yahweh the I AM that I AM in (NOT God the Father) the Old Testament "incarnated" Himself as the Son of Man and the Son of God in the New Testament.
Now, can you answer my question to you, please. Thanks.You are playing word games. Is Jesus 100% God or only 1/3 God? God is God. All three are in agreement, Yes? Yet you still are trying to make Jesus less then 100% God by dividing the three persons. Let us look and the Johanan statement. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. The three agree in the One. Jesus said: "I and my Father are one". I believe you are arguing with yourself. To make a distinction of Jesus GOD the SON does not mean Jesus is any the less 100% GOD. I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Is it that Jesus is less then God because He is the SON? IF so then you better go back to your website and change a few things.
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Post by To Junia on Sept 4, 2007 9:50:04 GMT -5
No, I do not believe Jesus was a created being. How could Jesus be a created being when he already "existed" in heaven/eternity as the Almighty God/Yahweh I AM that I AM with God the Father before the founadation of the world? I agree. So what should a person do about a worker who is teaching heresy? I challenged him with a lot of scripture but he is blind and his doctrine is still heretical. Now what? That is exactly what happened to me. I am no longer in meeting because of this. You also must understand that these teachings are linked to the Grace + concept. Hence, Onlywayism.
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Post by Interesting on Sept 4, 2007 9:52:56 GMT -5
GOD WITH US 23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Thanks. I know Most of the workers preach, teach Jesus came from heaven and he existed with God the Father in heaven before the foundation of the world and 2,000 yrs ago he was begotten by the Holy Spirit and Marry as the Son of Man and the Son of God Jesus Christ.
Is that Incarnation according to you? a simple answer Yes or No would be good enough. Thanks. Most worker flat out reject the teaching of Trinity and you know it.
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Post by junia on Sept 4, 2007 10:01:45 GMT -5
That is exactly what happened to me. I am no longer in meeting because of this. You also must understand that these teachings are linked to the Grace + concept. Hence, Onlywayism. I believe F&W theology is faulty in several key areas: Misunderstanding/incomprehension of the severity of sin and the fall of Adam. The deity of Jesus. Jesus's "ministry". GRACE. The result is onlywayism, and that's the F&W belief I have the most problem with. I despise it. (Not the people, but the belief.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2007 10:10:06 GMT -5
That is exactly what happened to me. I am no longer in meeting because of this. You also must understand that these teachings are linked to the Grace + concept. Hence, Onlywayism. I believe F&W theology is faulty in several key areas: Misunderstanding/incomprehension of the severity of sin and the fall of Adam. The deity of Jesus. Jesus's "ministry". GRACE. The result is onlywayism, and that's the F&W belief I have the most problem with. I despise it. (Not the people, but the belief.) While I equally despise the Onlywayism concept and even consider it evil(because of what it produces), I view it was coming from a different, simpler origin. I see it as originating from the focus on human form, mainly the form of the ministry but also the form of the meeting in the home. It has been the format that has always been the foundation of "proof" that we are the Only Way.
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Post by junia on Sept 4, 2007 10:15:51 GMT -5
If Jesus is Truth, then all error, (false doctrine, including form) will stem from a faulty understanding of who Jesus really is. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2007 10:51:20 GMT -5
If Jesus is Truth, then all error, (false doctrine, including form) will stem from a faulty understanding of who Jesus really is. It doesn't get any simpler than that. Coming to the understanding that Jesus is God, or Jesus is Truth, may not make any difference and could be worse and I will explain why. Now they say: "Jesus the Son of God said that you must go 2x2." Next they may say "Jesus is God (the Son) and he said that you must go 2x2." The second case on Onlywayism would become more entrenched than the first.
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Post by Oh on Sept 4, 2007 12:41:58 GMT -5
You are playing word games. Is Jesus 100% God or only 1/3 God? God is God. All three are in agreement, Yes? Yet you still are trying to make Jesus less then 100% God by dividing the three persons. Let us look and the Johanan statement. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. The three agree in the One. Jesus said: "I and my Father are one". I believe you are arguing with yourself. To make a distinction of Jesus GOD the SON does not mean Jesus is any the less 100% GOD. I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Is it that Jesus is less then God because He is the SON? IF so then you better go back to your website and change a few things. ~~~ Mutli- anonymous names or whoever you're ... According to many of your posts it seems you don't understand the Godhead. Christ's Deity. Jesus 1/2 or 1/3 God is faulty and incorrect thinking. It is very simple to understand but you make it so complicated and too confusing.
We can discuss any of your Godhead, 3 in one question or whatever but please! PICK one handle or name and stick with it... this way I know I am writing to the same person so I don't get a headache from trying to figure out is this the same person or the multi-anonymous hit-run person.Oh don't be so stupid N9. You know very well I have firm grip on the subject. The 1/2,1/3 issues were put forth in questions. I never said I believed in any of the sort. You are the one that is fliping all over the place. Either Jesus is God or not. Which is it. Yes or no? You know very well the Trinty is not taught or believed by the workers so when you make an issue of (God the Son) vs God the Father you are slanting you beliefs to fit the 2x2 thinking. Your web sites have most if not all of my references to support the Three persons of the Trinity. As I said you are arguing with yourself.
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Post by Yes on Sept 4, 2007 12:49:18 GMT -5
Forebear one another.
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Post by junia on Sept 4, 2007 12:58:28 GMT -5
You know very well the Trinty is not taught or believed by the workers This is a fact, although I would qualify it by adding majority. Most would be unable to accurately summarize what the Trinity IS. Bert for example thinks the Trinity is a Catholic doctrine rather than a biblical doctrine. No matter how many times Nathan says it's so, it doesn't make it so.
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Post by junia on Sept 4, 2007 13:03:58 GMT -5
~~~ How can the workers don't believe in the TRINITY or believe in Christ's DEITY.... when I know the workers PREACH, PRAY and TEACH God the Father, Jesus the Son of God who came from heaven and exist before the foundation of the world was created,
As I stated earlier Nathan, a certain worker (whom you know) expressed quite clearly the OPPOSITE view. How do you explain that? Is it heresy? The fact is, as the topic of this whole thread is titled, the workers often DO contradict themselves. I've heard them (contradictions) many times myself.
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Post by here we go again on Sept 4, 2007 13:05:10 GMT -5
Here we go again.
Bert is adamant that the trinity is a Catholic (ie, false) doctrine.
Nathan is adamant that the workers believe and teach the trinity, which according to bert is a false doctrine.
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timber
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Post by timber on Sept 4, 2007 13:07:40 GMT -5
I was lectured by a worker for asking him why he had said in a gospel meeting that Jesus was not from everlasting to everlasting. I told him that I thought this was not correct. This question of mine was never answered - instead I was told that I didn't get it and needed a revelation of truth.
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Post by actually on Sept 4, 2007 13:10:32 GMT -5
I was lectured by a worker for asking him why he had said in a gospel meeting that Jesus was not from everlasting to everlasting. I told him that I thought this was not correct. This question of mine was never answered - instead I was told that I didn't get it and needed a revelation of truth. I would submit that hearing the worker say that would qualify as having a real "relevation of truth" and seeing that you needed to get the heck away from such teaching.
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Post by junia on Sept 4, 2007 13:12:04 GMT -5
Here we go again. Bert is adamant that the trinity is a Catholic (ie, false) doctrine. Nathan is adamant that the workers believe and teach the trinity, which according to bert is a false doctrine. According to Nathan, Bert does believe in the Trinity. He just doesn't KNOW it yet.
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Post by Be Real on Sept 4, 2007 13:17:35 GMT -5
Let us not be confused by Jesus the Son of God vs. Jesus Born of Mary. Mary's Conception is considered "Immaculate." Why would God the Father have any need of a female egg with which to use to create a Zygote in Mary's womb? Of course God would not need a human egg. Be realistic - Why would God have need of a human womb? Or, on a broader point - why does God need people at all? As pets? You complain of nit picking. There are some much more wide spreading questions.
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nathan is preaching
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Post by nathan is preaching on Sept 4, 2007 16:07:20 GMT -5
Tell it to the workers, nathan. You're preaching to the choir here.
Better than that.... tell bert. You and he are at total odds with each other on this one, and yet you claim to have the same doctrine. Ha!
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Post by nathanisajoke on Sept 4, 2007 16:21:46 GMT -5
Nathan wants everyone to believe the workers and friends believe in the trinity.
But many of us know from first hand accounts that this is not the case.
I was told by an elder to my face that we do not believe in the trinity.
Nathan is spreading lies and falsehoods to make his fellowship look normal, when in fact we know it is anything but.
He points to random workers or random friends to prove his point, but we all know he speaks of the exception and not the norm. Most friends and Most workers do not believe in the trinity and deny the divinity of Christ.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2007 18:22:27 GMT -5
Nathan wants everyone to believe the workers and friends believe in the trinity. But many of us know from first hand accounts that this is not the case. I was told by an elder to my face that we do not believe in the trinity. Nathan is spreading lies and falsehoods to make his fellowship look normal, when in fact we know it is anything but. He points to random workers or random friends to prove his point, but we all know he speaks of the exception and not the norm. Most friends and Most workers do not believe in the trinity and deny the divinity of Christ. All workers with whom I have broached this issue confirm their belief in the divinity of Christ. A common phrase is "fully human and fully divine". I have not heard in recent memory a worker say something like "Jesus was just a man". They avoid the trinity label and when I see some of the arguments on the subject, perhaps it's as just well that they do avoid it.
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Post by _ on Sept 4, 2007 18:25:17 GMT -5
divinity of Christ = Jesus is God
They may say they believe in the divinity of Christ, but I doubt all who say that would agree Jesus is God...
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Post by _ on Sept 4, 2007 18:34:45 GMT -5
Yes, that is what I have heard preached by many workers in the westcoast of USA that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human.... Many? If this is true, then you should be able to list the names of the "many" workers YOU'VE HEARD preach this... Please list their names nathan... Not all... just a few of the many YOU'VE HEARD...
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Post by _ on Sept 4, 2007 18:40:11 GMT -5
And this is many to you?
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Post by _ on Sept 4, 2007 18:52:14 GMT -5
more than one is many, right? no Of course there are workers who believe Jesus is God... I do not deny that they exist... what I deny is your assertion that the belief is the norm in the fellowship, when we all know that isn't the case... You are a propagandist and will say anything to make sure the truth is twisted to fit your agenda...
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Post by _ on Sept 4, 2007 19:00:46 GMT -5
Nathan,
Go to the ST list and ask the following, "Is Jesus God?"
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Post by which is on Sept 4, 2007 22:25:13 GMT -5
yea, right... This is what nathan usually says when he knows you're right.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2007 0:19:56 GMT -5
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Post by actually on Sept 5, 2007 0:32:33 GMT -5
Did I say that the doctrine of the Trinity is wrong? Did you say that the doctrine of the Trinity is right?
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