|
Post by ANDREW M on Aug 29, 2007 7:20:21 GMT -5
One of the last Gospel Meetings that I attended, the senior Worker preached about "works, works, works. " She went on to say that the whole Bible from beginning to end was about "works."
Now I have no problem at all accepting works are an essential part of following Christ. However, this worker "did not" explain what she meant by "works."
What are they ?
In my view "works" is the product of the spirit of God in our lives. eg, showing the love of God to others, whether in Christ or not. The fruit of the spirit. Jesus gave us the excellent example of the Samaritan to demonstrate this.
However, this all seems lightyears away from what I perceive "works" to mean in the way that I was once part of for many years. I used to understand this to mean running after workers, attending every Gospel meeting and Sunday and Wednesday meetings, reading my Bible and so on. In fact all the things that showed you were "professing !"
Does anyone have a proper understanding of what Workers means by "works ?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2007 7:36:01 GMT -5
Visiting the sick and widows; caring for the elderly; modesty; rejecting worldly pursuits; attending church; prayer; meditation; showing Christ in your life etc.
|
|
|
Post by a thief on Aug 29, 2007 7:37:40 GMT -5
What "Works" did the thief on the cross perform? He was promised a place in Paradise, for whatever it was he did.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2007 7:54:06 GMT -5
General stealing, grand theft, assault, incest, larceny, counterfeiting, rape etc. Why do you ask?
|
|
|
Post by tobert on Aug 29, 2007 8:02:25 GMT -5
Yes works were important. But their works were not something we did naturally. They are only something we could do because of the transition of becoming spiritual beings. It was the power of the spirit within us that gives us the victory over our carnal selfs that we can have such works in our lives. NOTHING OF OURSELVES. ALL BECAUSE OF JESUS. Our works which we do are an indication of the spirit working within us. They are the fruits of the spirit. That we would keep the commandments of our lord. Of which the two greatest commandments were to love the lord, and to love they neighbor even as Jesus loved us. All commandments were comprehended in these two commandments. Example: if we loved god and our neighbor we would want to do nothing that would hurt god or make him unhappy and we would want to do nothing that would hurt our neighbor or make them unhappy. The fruits of the spirit in our lives are these: Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:25 f we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal 5:26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. These are the works of the spirit in our lives.
|
|
|
Post by tobert on Aug 29, 2007 8:13:15 GMT -5
To me the most important way of knowing whether something is right or wrong is listening to the guiding of the holy spirit which lives in you. So if you were about to steal something, I assume you would feel really guilty before even doing it and know that it is wrong to steal.... so you would not steal. But if you were not lead of the holy spirit you may not realize that what you are doing is wrong, and do it anyway. I know this is vague but it is an example. So we have what we like to call conviction. The holy spirit lets us know when something is not in accordance with god and what he wants. It is best to steer clear of these. It is also important to realize that what convicts one person another person may not be convicted by it. Someone drinking a glass of wine for instance. There is nothing wrong with drinking a glass of wine. And someone may be able to do it, and not have it effect their spiritual selves in the least. On the other hand there may be someone who is struggling with wanting to drink lots, and go out and drink and get drunk (because their friends are doing it). They may be convicted for wanting to drink that glass of wine, because they know in their heart what their true desire is and that it is sinful. While the other person just wanted to sit and have a glass of wine with dinner and nothing else. So you see, we also need to listen to the holy spirit that he can guide us and keep our works right, and keep us spiritually safe.
|
|
|
Post by Scotty on Aug 30, 2007 14:02:56 GMT -5
I went to a gospel meeting and didn't understand what I heard.
Instead of asking what they meant I asked the audience of a website.
I don't beleive that this thread was started by the one whose name is on it.
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Aug 30, 2007 14:29:48 GMT -5
This thread most certainly was started by the one whose name is on it.
1) I did not ask what the workers meant by "works."
2) I have not had the opportunity since to ask "any" worker what is they mean by "works."
3) It is only in fairly recent times I have come to question what they mean by "works." As explained in the penultimate paragraph of my initial post, I perceived what was meant by their expression of works, since there is virtually no encouragement or promotion of "outreach" works within the group.
4) I now seek an "official" understanding of what Workers mean by "works." Is it as I originally and for many years perceived it to be, or is there another understanding, the evidence of which has so far escaped me ?
|
|
|
Post by works on Aug 30, 2007 14:38:51 GMT -5
This thread most certainly was started by the one whose name is on it. 1) I did not ask what the workers meant by "works." 2) I have not had the opportunity since to ask "any" worker what is they mean by "works." 3) It is only in fairly recent times I have come to question what they mean by "works." As explained in the penultimate paragraph of my initial post, I perceived what was meant by their expression of works, since there is virtually no encouragement or promotion of "outreach" works within the group. 4) I now seek an "official" understanding of what Workers mean by "works." Is it as I originally and for many years perceived it to be, or is there another understanding, the evidence of which has so far escaped me ? Works is a woman wearing her hair up, having no TV, going to meeting and convention, having the workers in your home etc. These are the works we heard preached about. Visiting th sick, helping the widows etc was never mentioned, in fact they say that they are the works of the world. Those in other churches do these things, we are not of the world!!
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Aug 30, 2007 14:59:32 GMT -5
To "works," your understanding is very akin to what I formerly understood works to be. As my understanding is now so very different, you can see why I am now asking some very pertinent questions on the subject.
The old explanation "just come along to the gospel mission and all your questions will be answered," does not specifically answer these type of questions but rather boldly underlines individual perceptions derived from preaching.
I believe many things constitute works, including the primary example Jesus specifically gave about the Samaritan. I would like this example explained from a Worker's perspective, including why is seems to be avoided during preaching, especially when it was held up by Jesus as an example of how we can show the love of God to others (outside the fold) and thus proving our love for God.
|
|
|
Post by works man on Aug 30, 2007 15:22:09 GMT -5
Works is a description by some of what we must do to be saved.
Its a "work" to accept a gift, so accepting the gift of salvation is works.
Some say we are saved by accepting Gods grace. This is a work.
|
|
|
Post by a believer on Aug 30, 2007 15:58:08 GMT -5
So believing, having faith etc is a work or is a work doing something practical, such as going to meeting, visiting th sick etc. We are doing something when we accept Jesus but I would say works is doing something about it, not the act of accepting. So to me works is 'doing' sor nto doing omething (practical) not simply believing.
|
|
|
Post by a believer on Aug 30, 2007 16:00:06 GMT -5
Sorry about the mistakes above, I was in a hurry.
|
|
|
Post by Sylvestra on Aug 30, 2007 16:24:36 GMT -5
What "Works" did the thief on the cross perform? He was promised a place in Paradise, for whatever it was he did. He believed in Christ - His blood shed on the cross to save men from sin. Period! E
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Aug 30, 2007 16:35:39 GMT -5
With regards to the thief on the cross, we must remember that he was nailed hands and feet to the cross, in a state of agony enduring a slow death. His peer suffered similarly and cried upon Jesus that if he was the Son of God to get them down from the cross (the natural reaction in these type of circumstances).
However, the "saved" thief not only listened to Jesus' message, he accepted it AND witnessed for Jesus from the cross. We only know a little of what he said. He was hung up there for quite a while before he died. I reckon that thief's witnessing was quite some feat considering his circumstances. It would also have encouraged Jesus, who as we know came to believe temporarily that his Heavenly Father had forsaken him.
I reckon most of us if we live to be 100, our "works" will hardly add up to the "works" of that thief in the short time he witnessed, considering his circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Aug 30, 2007 16:43:57 GMT -5
Scotty, this is not just a "website." It is visited by many people associated with or formerly associated with the Friends and Workers' sect.
There are both professing people who visit and contribute to this website and there are former members who do likewise. There are some ex-workers on both sides of the divide, all of whom I think should be capable of contributing what they understand what Workers mean by "works."
If these type of answers can't be had on a website such as this, then where can they be had ?
Who is going to "teach" me ?
|
|
|
Post by Kathy Lewis on Aug 30, 2007 21:28:43 GMT -5
Good question.
Jame's definition of works was physically acting upon one's faith. In other works are obedience to God's word. Faith without works is dead. We are actually supposed to do something about what we believe.
But the workers' definition of works isn't really about feeding orphans and widows, or translating the Bible into foreign languages or taking the gospel to cannibals and pagans. Irvine was against charity and so are all his followers.
Bert is wrong. The friends and workers rarely do any good works. The workers' works are preaching and visiting, eating and going on Special Meeting rounds and convention rounds. Occasionally, you will find some kindly professing people, but not among the workers. The workers want all attention given to them.
The workers' works are all about going to meetings, funerals, conventions, hosting the workers, giving to the workers, giving testimonies and feeding the workers, obeying the dowdy appearance rules and bowing and scraping to the head worker.
I really think the sister worker meant to say, "The whole Bible is about workers, workers, workers."
Yes, there are some wonderful workers out there who do care about people, but they have to keep quiet about it or the headworker will get rid of them. Just remember what happened to Fern Strouse and other workers like her.
|
|
matia
Senior Member
Posts: 242
|
Post by matia on Aug 30, 2007 22:08:11 GMT -5
To Kathy Lewis I like your posting , you are 100% right ,/ In all my time IN IT I think 25 years I never had a Bible discussion with the workers / I never had a prayer with one of them, My interlectualy handicapped brother did not have any assurance when he died and the workers took the funeral ./ In fact when my brother was in hospital, my Uncle who was not IN IT Prayed for my brother , ( very moving ) and that was poo-hood by my own parents who were IN IT It's a pity they do not have some old peoples home and show some kindness to others.instead of meetings , meetings , meetings , Oh yes you cant ask any questions , just attend the meetings and you will find the answer . / I have asked several of them ( are you saved and is your chance of eternal life secure ) their answer has always been I HOPE SO, now isnt that good for any on listening, I mean outsiders Oh by the way my brother was spoken to for wearing a gold tiepin, many years ago. In saying all this , there were several older workers who will always be in my mind , I think of one a Peter McGorum who taught me how to play draughts, and then there was A Herbert Bland who new the bible back to front plus an excellant knowlege of currant affairs Thats all for today
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Aug 31, 2007 4:25:36 GMT -5
Thanks for posting Kathy. I like your direct route to goal. For some it's either an important wake up call, or it can send others back into their hibernation. There's no in between to fudge the issues.
I think a monster of a mandatory system was created by Irvine et al, which even head Workers are subject to, often producing obedience to the system in preference to expressing the true Christian spirit.
|
|
matia
Senior Member
Posts: 242
|
Post by matia on Aug 31, 2007 5:16:08 GMT -5
Andrew M Well Spoken
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2007 14:19:04 GMT -5
"Andrew M" said... I have not had the opportunity since to ask "any" worker what is they mean by "works."
So its impossible to lift the phone and ask a question?
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Aug 31, 2007 16:32:18 GMT -5
Scotty, the last time I telephoned a Worker, will in fact be the last time I telephone a Worker, I can assure you !
Within two seconds I realised my mistake. The outpouring was most certainly not from God.
|
|
savedbyblood
Junior Member
Eventually we'll figure it all out!
Posts: 57
|
Post by savedbyblood on Sept 1, 2007 2:44:34 GMT -5
My Great Aunt, by way of my being wife's step-father's sister (I think?) and her husband professed all of their lives as far as I can tell. When the husband retired and their health began to fail they began to miss some meetings. We went to visit but not as often as we should with a new child to take care of. Others in the Truth went to visit for a while and then the visits began to get further and further apart. So many "Friends" here and no time for the Elderly Professing folks. The Workers neglected their duties. My wife continued to keep in close contact and if there was an hospitalization we were the only ones to respond to help them.
With the inability to get out to meetings and the fact that the Church was neglecting it's own, the husband became somewhat disenchanted with it all. His wife died 2 years ago and he did not even bother to inform the friends. (He called us) He did not want a Worker to officiate over her funeral. If they refused to show love and care for while she was alive he would not want them speaking of her in seath.
He is still alive and since he is a friend of the family (dad and him used to race cars on the local speedway) I do call him from time to time. As a Christian I should make more of an effort to visit just because it is the right thing to do. I give money to bums. I give money to the Salvation Army (oh oh don't tell the workers I donate to a false church) Clothes to Goodwill. And when my brother rides with me more often than not he will carry some granola or fruit to give to the street people in need of food.
Works? I've never considered it. It's just what we do. My sister helps out several street people where she lives. We do not consider good deeds as "works" toward a reward.
My mother-in-lay used to take my wife out on some Saturdays and sometimes would buy her something or another for a couple of dollars. When I went to pick my wife up the mother-in-law would invariably try to stuff 93 cents or a dollar sixty-five down my shirt pocket because this is what she had spent on my wife! I explained to her that it did not matter to me if she spent the same on me or not. It made no difference.
Her response? "Don't you dare take away my chance to bless myself by treating you both equally"! Saved by works? Nuts? She is still a 2by2 but allows for lying and such if it is for her family...
In my 35 plus experience I have never heard of "Works" being defined. We were just led to believe that works were all the no-no's that we were supposed to not do or have and if we did not do or have them we were doing good works. (Don't ever wear an ID bracelet to Sunday Meeting with a Worker present. It can get severe! As a rodeo nut I was frown upon for my big buckle.)
I think that the Worker definition of "Works" is nothing but a list of Thou shalls and Thou shall not's and they are actually reluctant to be pinned down because they have not much which points toward scripture.
As I have stated in another post, I'm here with the 2by2's for the long haul. This is the True way for me and I cannot and will not judge for others. The Truth is good. The Truth is right. Some people have a very difficult time dealing with power and sometimes prefer to parrot what they have been taught rather than examine the scripture. we were told to examine and test to assure ourselves of the Truth.
Some day we will meet in peace with The overseers and begin to come to terms with the high minded rulers steeped inn hand-me-down teaching.
Please Pray for the Word.
Peace in Him,
SBB
|
|
|
Post by Scotty on Sept 1, 2007 3:57:16 GMT -5
Andrew, your statements are hard to reconcile. You say you had "no opportunity" to check the meaning of this workers words. But you decline the opportunity to phone them.
I can well understand that you don't want to phone a worker, but that refusal on your part means that you are denying yourself the opportunity to clarify. You implied that it was lack of opportunity preventing you clarifying directly. Its clearer now that you don't want that clarification, yet you raise the question here purporting to seek clarification.
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Sept 1, 2007 4:32:41 GMT -5
Scotty, I think you are having difficulty understanding me and are way off at a tangent with your assessment ?
The mission I was referring to happened some time ago. It is only in fairly recent times I have come to ask myself "what do Workers mean by Works," and "What did I understand them to be whilst I was professing ?"
The mission I referred to was one of the last missions that I was in. I have had "no" opportunity to personally ask any Worker about this or any other matter. If you provide me with the name and telephone number of a "willing worker" then I will happily discuss these matters with him or her. Better still let's have a friendly, mutually respectual meeting or series of meetings at my place or any other venue to discuss spiritual/scriptural matters ? Any takers ?
Where have I declined opportunity to phone them ? You say I refuse to phone them yet as I mentioned the last time I phoned a Worker, the response was hardly the outpouring from a man of God. A maniac would be more precise. I suspect you know who I am and probably know who I'm talking about ?
As you may have seen from other posters, including professing posters, nobody, even those professing for 35 years and still in, have heard any Worker define what they mean by "works." Such an important aspect too ! Please research these matters properly from the evidence available even on this thread before making sweeping, incorrect statements.
I would dearly love clarification. I am willing to have that over the phone or by personal visit. Why do YOU not explain what you understand Workers to mean by "WORKS !" That would help clarify things. People here just might applaud your efforts ?
As I've said before, there are professing people on this forum, there are former professing people, ex-workers on both sides of the divide. Are you suggesting that none of these people are capable of answering the question I asked ?
I am not condemning the Worker who made the statement about works. I supported her statement in my original post by stating works are an essential part of following Christ. Surely such an essential thing needs an explanation ?
I'm sure most people on this forum would like to see the term "works" properly defined ?
Your attempts to try and belittle my "sincere" efforts to gain an explanation for "works" strongly permeates of "guilt and protectionism !"
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Sept 1, 2007 4:46:22 GMT -5
Scotty dear, you are needing to go back and re-read my original post.
I explained that a Worker preached about works but she did not explain what she meant by works.
I then stated what "I " NOW believed works to be and what I had formerly perceived them to be.
I the asked the audience a "general" question, ie "Does anyone have a proper understanding of what Workers mean by "works ?"
What's the big problem ?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2007 5:41:42 GMT -5
Many like to argue from the standpoint of ambiguity. It would be good if there was an acceptable list of "Works." Anyone want to try?
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Sept 1, 2007 5:57:06 GMT -5
Hi Bert,
I've lifted the following from my original post as my current understanding.
In my view "works" is the product of the spirit of God in our lives. eg, showing the love of God to others, whether (they are) in Christ or not. The fruit of the spirit. Jesus gave us the excellent example of the Samaritan to demonstrate this.
|
|