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Post by Rob O on Jul 30, 2006 21:32:01 GMT -5
I asked you:
Do you believe in God the Father? Do you believe in God the Son, completely equal in substance and being with the Father, fully God? Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit?
In short, do you believe in the Trinity? Yes or No?
You've chosen to avoid the question twice now. I am going to assume that your reluctance to confirm what you think means that you do not believe in the Trinity.
So there's another problem in your group. There is no united understanding of who God is. How can you all be worshiping the same God if you don't all believe in the same God? Even workers believe differently about God. So how do you determine which view of God within the 2x2s is the right one?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2006 22:15:43 GMT -5
Hi Rob - you asked
"Do you believe in God the Father?" Of course, as do all the Revealed Religions
"Do you believe in God the Son, completely equal in substance and being with the Father, fully God?" Don't recall reading "God the Son"
"Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit?" God is a Holy Spirit. I am sure this Holy Spirit is different to the one Jesus sent to the churches.
Somewhere in this "trinity" are missing the angels. Some say we have them watching over us. Do we need to have a "quadinity?"
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Post by Rob O on Jul 30, 2006 22:19:48 GMT -5
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". There's God the Son.
So I take it that you also don't believe in the full deity of Christ?
Now for the unanswered questions. Again....
So there's another problem in your group. There is no united understanding of who God is. How can you all be worshiping the same God if you don't all believe in the same God? Even workers believe differently about God. So how do you determine which view of God within the 2x2s is the right one?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2006 22:30:43 GMT -5
Your quote is from John's Gospel. It is one I have memorised. I have never read God being the Son into it. But... if it is there then I would be happy to accept it.
There is no (so-called) 2x2 Nicene style creed. Each and every one of us would interpret some concept slightly differently. Where we are united is in knowing "who God is:" God is our heavenly Father.
The Deity of Christ is a hard one. Jesus is both Son of God, and human. The mystery for all churches and each person is determining what this means.
A lot of personal context comes into this. Our ideas can evolve over time and experience, as it did for Moses, for Peter and for Paul.
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Father of God the son
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Post by Father of God the son on Jul 30, 2006 22:39:15 GMT -5
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". There's God the Son. So I take it that you also don't believe in the full deity of Christ? Now for the unanswered questions. Again.... So there's another problem in your group. There is no united understanding of who God is. How can you all be worshiping the same God if you don't all believe in the same God? Even workers believe differently about God. So how do you determine which view of God within the 2x2s is the right one? Round and round you go. Rob says he's the son of God and also God the son. Yet he cannot come up with a valid straightforward verse saying so. Then God must be God the Father and also the father of God. Using your same substitution rules.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 30, 2006 22:39:27 GMT -5
This simply isn't the case. Some believe God is the Trinity. Some believe God is just the Father (as you seem to - but you're so evasive it's difficult to tell for sure). Some believe the Father is God and the Son is God but that the Spirit is not God. So you are absolutely not united in knowing who God is. This is just another one of the fictions perpetuated by those who can't seem to get past the waffle and start talking openly. The only things that unite you are your insistence on a certain style of ministry and your meetings in the home. As neither of these are part and parcel of the gospel the safest thing one can say is that the 2x2 group is a mish-mash of true Christians, pagans and heretics. You can pick which one of those categories you fit into.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 30, 2006 22:41:20 GMT -5
John 1:1-3, John 1:14, John 1:18, John 20:28 and many more. I'm sorry if these aren't clear enough for you. Your problem is with scripture, not me.
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Post by Father of God on Jul 30, 2006 22:48:21 GMT -5
What
How old is the ''second'' oldest of creation?
Who was the first created being of God?
Is Jesus also referred to as the ''first-fruit'' of God? I seem to remember a verse that seems to indicate Him as being the first-fruit of creation, and that we can be like unto His first-fruit, when we become a new creature in Him.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 30, 2006 22:53:10 GMT -5
What are you on about? This makes no sense.
Possibly Lucifer. It certainly wasn't the Son because if you understood John 1:1-3 you would grasp that nothing was made without the Son. He is excluded from being a creature. But we have been around and around on this merry-go-round many times before, and I'm not going around again with you.
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Post by huh on Jul 30, 2006 22:58:47 GMT -5
This simply isn't the case. Some believe God is the Trinity. Some believe God is just the Father (as you seem to - but you're so evasive it's difficult to tell for sure). Some believe the Father is God and the Son is God but that the Spirit is not God. So you are absolutely not united in knowing who God is. This is just another one of the fictions perpetuated by those who can't seem to get past the waffle and start talking openly. The only things that unite you are your insistence on a certain style of ministry and your meetings in the home. As neither of these are part and parcel of the gospel the safest thing one can say is that the 2x2 group is a mish-mash of true Christians, pagans and heretics. You can pick which one of those categories you fit into. And to think you are united is quite false, as there are many ways to interpret everything you write. You are praising your own understanding and yet condemning it as most inadequate, and then you attempt to justify your understanding by resorting to the ''unfathomableness'' of the discriptions put forth in the Nicene creed.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jul 30, 2006 23:02:11 GMT -5
The only things that unite you are your insistence on a certain style of ministry and your meetings in the home. Actually, if what we read here is true, not all in the workers' church are convicted that the ministry and the home meetings are essential.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2006 23:08:47 GMT -5
It is sooo humorous to see Rob attack anyone that doesn't seem as confused as he is. I think he is trying to offend others as by insulting them with his confused rhetoric.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 30, 2006 23:28:00 GMT -5
Greg,
I agree somewhat but I think it's a spectrum starting at one end with "It's the only right ministry and salvation is not possible without hearing the worker's 'gospel'" through to "It's a good way of doing things but not the only way." If one doesn't fall somewhere in that spectrum it would be hard to understand why they even belong to the group.
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Purple/George/Otto/whatever you call yourself,
Posting in a way that attempts to make it look as though multiple people are agreeing with you in no way adds to your credibility. If you want to be credible you need to deal honestly with the passages that teach the deity of Christ. You've never done this.
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Nichole M
Senior Member
I John 1:5 ..... God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
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Post by Nichole M on Jul 31, 2006 1:12:13 GMT -5
The verse that I like the most in regards to Jesus being God is:
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and My God.
Thomas called Jesus "God" after he saw that Jesus was resurrected. If Jesus was not God then Jesus would have said so to Thomas. But Jesus did not deny he was God. That makes him God the Son to differentiate from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Nichole
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studylearning not logged
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Post by studylearning not logged on Jul 31, 2006 5:31:19 GMT -5
Your quote is from John's Gospel. It is one I have memorised. I have never read God being the Son into it. But... if it is there then I would be happy to accept it. There is no (so-called) 2x2 Nicene style creed. Each and every one of us would interpret some concept slightly differently. Where we are united is in knowing "who God is:" God is our heavenly Father. The Deity of Christ is a hard one. Jesus is both Son of God, and human. The mystery for all churches and each person is determining what this means. A lot of personal context comes into this. Our ideas can evolve over time and experience, as it did for Moses, for Peter and for Paul. Seems you believe in only parts of the bible. In another thread you said you don't own a KJV bible. What type of bible do you study? Since you use the lack of certain words in your study but hold fast to your understanding of scripture, do you believe in the validity of the transcribers interpetations. I mean if they who transcribed what you read and you believe it then why would you not believe the Dictionary references used in their interpetation. The Diety of Christ and the concept is not hard to understand. That is why I posted to you the following in the other thread. In the back of my KJV Bible Dictionary, Under GOD, It says:
"The doctrine of the Trinity is not anywhere clearly defined in the N.T., but there are many passeges which imply it, and which require it if we are to give them any satisfactiory explaination;....."
I guess your KJV is in error! OR IS IT?You seem to missed in your studies, The Doctrine of Trinity is required to understand the scriptures related to the Doctrine of Trinity. As long as you deny it will never be clear to you
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Post by Jam on Jul 31, 2006 5:48:03 GMT -5
Folks, its all guess work.
You think you know all these answers, but really you only guess and adapt scripture to your way of thinking and understanding.
How do you explain GOD saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him."?
I believe that Jesus came to earth to explain and live and show us a way to find the "real" GOD. Man and authority did not accept him and his blood was shed to cleanse the sins of those who would accept him as their Lord and Saviour. But..... that is what I think, at the end of this life, I will find if I am correct........
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Post by Rob O on Jul 31, 2006 6:23:45 GMT -5
Like you're guessing?
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Post by Jam on Jul 31, 2006 6:51:13 GMT -5
Sure, Rob, I am guessing, we all do. (and hope of course).
As I said, at the end of life I will see if I am correct. But then again, if there is nothing after death, I will never know.
So I, like you, guess.......
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Post by prue on Jul 31, 2006 6:51:16 GMT -5
hi all. bert uses the new king james. he said it is easier to read i read about the trinity on the internet - i personally associate this with the catholic church - i suggest it was used to test peoples belief in catholicism
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Post by Jam on Jul 31, 2006 6:55:06 GMT -5
And Rob, seeing you started this, how do you explain GOD saying "This is my beloved Son, here ye him"?
and Jesus praying to God, "take this cup from me, but nevertheless thy will be done."
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Post by Rob O on Jul 31, 2006 6:55:59 GMT -5
Jam,
I'm sorry your faith is based is on guesses. Mine isn't.
Ps. As to your questions....simple. Trinitarians believe Jesus had two natures - one fully human, the other full deity. There are many verses which are easily understood by reference to Jesus' human nature. Equally there are other verses which can only be understood as referring to the deity of Jesus. Trinitarians have no problem understanding the verses which speak to Christ's humanity. Unfortunately, anti-Trinitarians go to all manner of stretches to avoid the verses which teach Christ's deity.
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Prue,
So what would you say to workers who believe in the Trinity?
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Post by Jam on Jul 31, 2006 7:02:26 GMT -5
Rob,
Sorry mattie, you are really guessing....
Faith is a hope, and we guess and hope,
We may think we know, but really we have hope that we are correct.
You may sense that while I would like hard solid evidence of the existance of a Supreme Being, my fragile mind stuggles with the concept.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 31, 2006 7:04:07 GMT -5
Jam,
You need to stop speaking for other people. You may believe your faith is a guess - and you may think other people are only guessing. But you don't get to decide that.
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Post by Jam on Jul 31, 2006 7:12:51 GMT -5
Rob,
I reckon we all have two natures.
We all do not want to be bad (there are some exceptions to this rule I have learned in life), but from the day we are borne we are beset with the delemer (?) of good and evil, or simply good and bad.
Sometimes we are "good" sometimes "bad".
I don't know what is right in this argument, but to me if we have a preconceived idea, then we can, as you say, easily prove, perhaps to ourselves, our argument.
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Post by Jam on Jul 31, 2006 7:14:36 GMT -5
Rob,
How did the vote go in Towoomba?
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Post by slow to see on Jul 31, 2006 7:21:22 GMT -5
It seems it was important for Paul to believe and to mention to the Collosians that in him, JESUS, the FULNESS of the Godhead dwelt BODILY. Why is that hard to accept? I do not understand it, but surely we can accept and believe that? WHY the resistance? Is it because we have been taught differently, albeit incorrectly, and we do not want to admit our error?? Pride??? what? Alvin
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2006 7:25:59 GMT -5
Hi Jam - re Toowoomba vote. Flatly rejected. But this is an issue which will not go away. The active systems of both recycling and desalination are viable and utterly necessary I believe.
Yes, we have two natures. This is one of the THEMES of the bible, ie Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau. But I don't call myself a Trinitarian. When Jesus did speak to his Father, I am sure he wasn't speaking to himself. God took Jesus through many experiences that Jesus did not seem to have fore-knowledge of. Jesus said there were things which only his Father had answers to. But to say that Jesus, his Father and the Holy Spirit are one - I am happy with that. They were one in their unity. We can be one with the Father and Son also.
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timber
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Post by timber on Jul 31, 2006 7:30:23 GMT -5
Rob wrote: Do you believe in God the Son, completely equal in substance and being with the Father, fully God?
Rob, now I understand why I got the reaction that I did when I challenged a worker about his statement that Jesus was not from everlasting to everlasting. If he had admitted to a mistake, then he would have had to admit to the truth that you have written above. I recall now that he accused me of refering to Jesus as the Father, perhaps with an understanding that God is only the Father.
Also, Jesus allowed Himself to be worshipped. This is another sign of His deity
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