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Post by maryhig on Nov 3, 2023 4:43:33 GMT -5
Eh? What you say is nonsense. How has Jesus naturally dying on the literal cross saved you? What has Jesus being literally murdered saved you from and how has it saved you? And again you're quoting John 3:16 show me where in this verse it mentions Jesus dying on the cross to save us? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Why do people keep using this verse to show that Jesus came to die on the cross? It doesn't say anything like that at all! Jesus tells us clearly why he came into this world in John 17:3. He said he was born and came into this world to bare witness to the truth. Not to be a human sacrifice to God which is an abomination to God. Your sins aren't cleared by Jesus being murdered, your sins are cleared when you truly repent and start to live by the will of God, deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Jesus. God gives his Spirit to those who obey him. If there's no obedience, then there's no power of the Spirit to overcome, and then our sins remain, because we know the truth and don't obey it. And the reason that we will have no power to overcome is because we need the Spirit to strengthen us, to guide us, and teach us daily in our hearts, helping us to overcome. Jesus said to the pharasees, because you say you see, your sins remain. And that goes for us too, the literal blood of Jesus went 2000 years ago, it's his life blood that saves. And this is the blood that Paul means. And the death Paul means is death to self, which is explained clearly in Romans 6 which I was reading this morning. Open the eyes and ears of your heart, God doesn't need a human sacrifice to save, he needs a living sacrifice, which is exactly what Jesus was, he laid his life laid down to live by the will of God, denying his will to bare witness to the truth and bring us a new and living way to follow. I'm so glad that Jesus clearly says he had a will of his own, because many of you would try and make out he's God because he didn't have a will and goodness knows where that would have led. Jesus had a will, but he denied his will and laid down his life in the flesh to live by the will of his God, to bring us the truth in the gospel and he lived it out himself leaving us a perfect example to follow, he brought us a new and living way, and there is no other way, there is one door and those who enter in, enter in by living as Jesus taught us to live and in doing so we truly follow him. The death here below is death to self, and the crucifixion is to crucify (put to death) our old ways and then through Christ by the power of the Spirit we are raised to life, if we are willing to obey God and live by his will as Jesus himself did. No natural crucifixion can save you, and we have to die as Jesus did, and be dead to self and dead to the ways of this world and alive in God. Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Its not nonsense, nearly all Christians believe and understand that Jesus died for the remission of sins, he was as John the Baptist said, "The Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". So your actually the odd-man-out in your belief that you don't need to be washed of sin. God gave his only begotten Son, he didn't lend him to the world for a brief visit or quick lecture, but literally gave his life for us. Its sad that you can't grasp that.
You can't fully obey God or live by his will, that's why you need a Savior who did. We are all dead to sin and remain so until we accept that Jesus atoned for our sins, he bore the curse of the law so that we could escape death. Your under the impression that you don't need a Savior, your don't need to be redeemed, and that your good enough to atone for your own sins. Good luck with that.
No righteous God could absolve you of sin without requiring that the debt of sin be paid. Jesus took the punishment that you and I deserve, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24). Even nonbelievers understand that verse, its not rocket science. God does not blot-out sin until its been answered for, He would be unjust if He simply forgave and forgot about it. Someone worthy had to pay, and Jesus took that burden upon himself. It doesn't matter what most Christians believe it's not the truth. Only Noah was saved in the floods, so it doesn't matter how many believe as I do, I know it's the truth. And I don't mean I'm righteous and holy, I just mean that in this regard millions can be wrong because false teachers have built up false denominations and I know they don't teach the truth. They are money making idol worshipping institutions. Nothing like the way of Jesus. And I'm not talking about the people but the organisation of the churches. And Jesus takes away our sin by the word of God when we listen, believe and obey, not by him dying on the cross. He atoned for our sins be denying himself, being a living sacrifice and bringing us the true word of God helping us to wash away our sins by the word, by teaching us to obey the word and he lived it out himself to leave us a perfect example to follow. God does not need God to be a human sacrifice to himself to save us that is just not the truth. God doesn't need any human sacrifice. God wants mercy not sacrifice and it says that in the Bible. Below Paul shows us that we are made free from sin by obeying the word of God. Not by Jesus dying on the cross. And If sin brings forth death then all our sins aren't forgiven by Jesus dying on the cross either. So we are freed from sin by obeying the word of God. As seen here below. Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness? 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, BUT YE HAVE OBEYED FROM THE HEART THAT FORM OF DOCTRINE WHICH WAS DELIVERED TO YOU. 6:18 BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN, YE BECAME SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. caps for emphasis only
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Post by maryhig on Nov 3, 2023 5:04:09 GMT -5
Therefore grace IS earned by doing the will of God. This makes absolute sense. www.gotquestions.org/know-God-will.htmlJesus was FULL of grace because he 100% sought to do God's will in his life. He was also full of truth because he 100% expressed God by his life.
I'd disagree... We are saved by Grace through Faith. If grace could be earned, who needs Christ?
Grace is the unearned, unmerited favor of God.. No sinner can earn their way into heaven, that belief nullifies the need for a Savior.
How can we be saved without the Holy Spirit? And the Bible clearly says that God gives the Holy Ghost to those who obey him. It's by the grace of God that we hear his word in the first place this is a gift of God. Then we have a choice, obey or not. Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. If there's no obedience then there's no Spirit. And no Spirit means no salvation and salvation begins when we first hear the truth, IF we are willing to repent and obey. When we truly repent, we are forgiven of sins past. Then we have to go on and obey the word of God and we will be judged on what we do good and bad, every single one of us. But those of us who know the truth, will be held much more accountable if we wilfully sin than those who don't know God. God forgives sin done in ignorance. Jesus says, we are to repent and believe the gospel to receive the kingdom of God. No crucifixion of Jesus required. Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. And once saved always saved is a false doctrine.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 3, 2023 5:07:53 GMT -5
What is sin? Sin is disobedience to the word of God. Every sinful act is disobedience to the word of God.Adam sinned when he disobeyed what God had told him not to do. At no time did Jesus disobey God. That is why he remained sinless. If a person obeys the word of God they will receive his indwelling spirit. This is what characterises a true follower of Christ. Wariness in associating with the term 'Christian' nowadays is wise because the term can refer to just about anything that remotely has some identification with Jesus. God is sovereign. He is not subject to the laws and rules he designed for his creation. The Lord gives life and takes it away according to his will. God does kill, but when he does, it is not with evil intent but to work his righteousness. Very convenient justification for the OT god. But snow, God does kill, as we all die. But God does not condone murder. That's the difference. We are not to take a man's life, God clearly says thou shalt not kill. But God can take our lives, because he gave us life.
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Post by Dan on Nov 3, 2023 15:53:11 GMT -5
Its not nonsense, nearly all Christians believe and understand that Jesus died for the remission of sins, he was as John the Baptist said, "The Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". So your actually the odd-man-out in your belief that you don't need to be washed of sin. God gave his only begotten Son, he didn't lend him to the world for a brief visit or quick lecture, but literally gave his life for us. Its sad that you can't grasp that.
You can't fully obey God or live by his will, that's why you need a Savior who did. We are all dead to sin and remain so until we accept that Jesus atoned for our sins, he bore the curse of the law so that we could escape death. Your under the impression that you don't need a Savior, your don't need to be redeemed, and that your good enough to atone for your own sins. Good luck with that.
No righteous God could absolve you of sin without requiring that the debt of sin be paid. Jesus took the punishment that you and I deserve, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24). Even nonbelievers understand that verse, its not rocket science. God does not blot-out sin until its been answered for, He would be unjust if He simply forgave and forgot about it. Someone worthy had to pay, and Jesus took that burden upon himself. It doesn't matter what most Christians believe it's not the truth. Only Noah was saved in the floods, so it doesn't matter how many believe as I do, I know it's the truth. And I don't mean I'm righteous and holy, I just mean that in this regard millions can be wrong because false teachers have built up false denominations and I know they don't teach the truth. They are money making idol worshipping institutions. Nothing like the way of Jesus. And I'm not talking about the people but the organisation of the churches. And Jesus takes away our sin by the word of God when we listen, believe and obey, not by him dying on the cross. He atoned for our sins be denying himself, being a living sacrifice and bringing us the true word of God helping us to wash away our sins by the word, by teaching us to obey the word and he lived it out himself to leave us a perfect example to follow. God does not need God to be a human sacrifice to himself to save us that is just not the truth. God doesn't need any human sacrifice. God wants mercy not sacrifice and it says that in the Bible. Below Paul shows us that we are made free from sin by obeying the word of God. Not by Jesus dying on the cross. And If sin brings forth death then all our sins aren't forgiven by Jesus dying on the cross either. So we are freed from sin by obeying the word of God. As seen here below. Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness? 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, BUT YE HAVE OBEYED FROM THE HEART THAT FORM OF DOCTRINE WHICH WAS DELIVERED TO YOU. 6:18 BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN, YE BECAME SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. caps for emphasis only
Your right, God did not need God to be a sacrifice, we did..
The verse you emphasized (Romans 6:18) says "Being made free of sin, ye became servants of righteousness". That's a past tense statement, We were freed of sin when he took our transgressions upon himself.
Your confusing forgiveness with atonement, they are 2 separate things. Forgiveness alone does not blot-out sin, he who suffered the consequences for sin fulfilled the law. Adhering to his word does not cleanse a person of sin, there's nothing we can do to erase our own sins.
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Post by fixit on Nov 3, 2023 16:09:50 GMT -5
We are saved by Grace through Faith. If grace could be earned, who needs Christ? There's a problem right there.
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Post by snow on Nov 3, 2023 16:43:00 GMT -5
Very convenient justification for the OT god. I would say it's extremely ignorant of what the letters G O D represent in the OT. The OT is a narative of one group of people trying to live up to a certain set of ideals(like us sometimes they got it right sometimes they didn't), but now when read with the western language and its own philosophy and concepts these letters G O D have been turned into a actual literal being which drastically changes the intent and picture people get in their head.......and it all goes downhill from there.... When you grow up in the 'truth' you read the OT as it literally is written. There is no access to a theology that makes it sound metaphorical or relates to what the Hebrew people may or may not have meant. When I read about the OT god at 12, I understood that he ordered the Hebrews to kill all the women and children, even the animals, but to keep the young virgin girls for their wives. If that isn't enough to turn anyone away from worshiping such a god I don't know what would?
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Post by snow on Nov 3, 2023 16:45:53 GMT -5
Very convenient justification for the OT god. But snow, God does kill, as we all die. But God does not condone murder. That's the difference. We are not to take a man's life, God clearly says thou shalt not kill. But God can take our lives, because he gave us life. God ordered murder in the OT. He ordered the killing of women and children and even the animals but to save the young virgin girls for their wives. A 12 year old reading that can only interpret that literally. There was no way after reading it, that I could justify worshiping a god like that. I now understand of course that no god ordered any such thing, but it was merely the Hebrew people justifying their attempt at genocide.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 3, 2023 18:42:33 GMT -5
When I read about the OT god at 12, I understood that he ordered the Hebrews to kill all the women and children, even the animals, but to keep the young virgin girls for their wives. If that isn't enough to turn anyone away from worshiping such a god I don't know what would? That could easily be considered a metaphor for "taking" young virgins and dismissing all the rest.
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Post by mrdobalina on Nov 3, 2023 18:54:19 GMT -5
Because the 2x2 Church has wandered in the wilderness for more than 120 years, maybe it is time to adopt a management structure that has been used by the majority of Christian Churches ,with great success. Without such a structure it provides an environment for criminal activity and wrong doing to prosper. Plenty of good models they could use. Try this one, personally I like the Congregational Model. www.vancopayments.com/egiving/blog/church-leadership-structure-modelsDidn't seem to help the Catholics.
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Post by intelchips on Nov 3, 2023 20:24:25 GMT -5
I would say it's extremely ignorant of what the letters G O D represent in the OT. The OT is a narative of one group of people trying to live up to a certain set of ideals(like us sometimes they got it right sometimes they didn't), but now when read with the western language and its own philosophy and concepts these letters G O D have been turned into a actual literal being which drastically changes the intent and picture people get in their head.......and it all goes downhill from there.... When you grow up in the 'truth' you read the OT as it literally is written. There is no access to a theology that makes it sound metaphorical or relates to what the Hebrew people may or may not have meant. When I read about the OT god at 12, I understood that he ordered the Hebrews to kill all the women and children, even the animals, but to keep the young virgin girls for their wives. If that isn't enough to turn anyone away from worshiping such a god I don't know what would? When you grow up in the Truth you'll never be told: "And Jesus was a sailor When He walked upon the water And He spent a long time watching From His lonely wooden tower And when He knew for certain Only drowning men could see Him He said, "All men will be sailors then Until the sea shall free them" But He Himself was broken Long before the sky would open Forsaken, almost human He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone And you want to travel with Him And you want to travel blind And you think maybe you'll trust Him For He's touched your perfect body with his mind"
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 3, 2023 20:55:09 GMT -5
When you grow up in the 'truth' you read the OT as it literally is written. There is no access to a theology that makes it sound metaphorical or relates to what the Hebrew people may or may not have meant. When I read about the OT god at 12, I understood that he ordered the Hebrews to kill all the women and children, even the animals, but to keep the young virgin girls for their wives. If that isn't enough to turn anyone away from worshiping such a god I don't know what would? When you grow up in the Truth you'll never be told: "And Jesus was a sailor When He walked upon the water And He spent a long time watching From His lonely wooden tower And when He knew for certain Only drowning men could see Him He said, "All men will be sailors then Until the sea shall free them" But He Himself was broken Long before the sky would open Forsaken, almost human He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone And you want to travel with Him And you want to travel blind And you think maybe you'll trust Him For He's touched your perfect body with his mind" Cohen wrote some beautiful poetry.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 4, 2023 10:58:12 GMT -5
But snow, God does kill, as we all die. But God does not condone murder. That's the difference. We are not to take a man's life, God clearly says thou shalt not kill. But God can take our lives, because he gave us life. God ordered murder in the OT. He ordered the killing of women and children and even the animals but to save the young virgin girls for their wives. A 12 year old reading that can only interpret that literally. There was no way after reading it, that I could justify worshiping a god like that. I now understand of course that no god ordered any such thing, but it was merely the Hebrew people justifying their attempt at genocide. I see the old testament completely different to you. I know that God's people wouldn't kill, it means putting sin to death. It's not literal. God said thou shalt not kill, Jesus came as an example to follow. He says, "when you see me you see the father" meaning you see the love of the father living through him and Jesus says it's wrong to kill and if we do, then we don't follow the law that Moses gave. John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? And James says this James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. And Jesus is in the express image of the father, because the father was in him reconciling the world unto himself by the word of God, and not by him dying on a cross. So if Jesus is in the express image of the father and is against killing then so is God. Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 4, 2023 11:41:39 GMT -5
It doesn't matter what most Christians believe it's not the truth. Only Noah was saved in the floods, so it doesn't matter how many believe as I do, I know it's the truth. And I don't mean I'm righteous and holy, I just mean that in this regard millions can be wrong because false teachers have built up false denominations and I know they don't teach the truth. They are money making idol worshipping institutions. Nothing like the way of Jesus. And I'm not talking about the people but the organisation of the churches. And Jesus takes away our sin by the word of God when we listen, believe and obey, not by him dying on the cross. He atoned for our sins be denying himself, being a living sacrifice and bringing us the true word of God helping us to wash away our sins by the word, by teaching us to obey the word and he lived it out himself to leave us a perfect example to follow. God does not need God to be a human sacrifice to himself to save us that is just not the truth. God doesn't need any human sacrifice. God wants mercy not sacrifice and it says that in the Bible. Below Paul shows us that we are made free from sin by obeying the word of God. Not by Jesus dying on the cross. And If sin brings forth death then all our sins aren't forgiven by Jesus dying on the cross either. So we are freed from sin by obeying the word of God. As seen here below. Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness? 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, BUT YE HAVE OBEYED FROM THE HEART THAT FORM OF DOCTRINE WHICH WAS DELIVERED TO YOU. 6:18 BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN, YE BECAME SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. caps for emphasis only
Your right, God did not need God to be a sacrifice, we did..
The verse you emphasized (Romans 6:18) says "Being made free of sin, ye became servants of righteousness". That's a past tense statement, We were freed of sin when he took our transgressions upon himself.
Your confusing forgiveness with atonement, they are 2 separate things. Forgiveness alone does not blot-out sin, he who suffered the consequences for sin fulfilled the law. Adhering to his word does not cleanse a person of sin, there's nothing we can do to erase our own sins.
We don't need God to come here to be a human sacrifice to save us from God. That is not the truth, it sounds ridiculous. I'm sorry but I don't agree with you, what you believe isn't the truth. A human sacrifice can never save us. Many say that they believe and that Jesus died for them and that God can't see their sins because they are covered by the death of Jesus. They can still sin and still be saved, which isn't the truth because if we are truly being saved then we should be turning from sin and obeying God's word. But they carry on living a life that goes against the teachings of Jesus because they love their flesh more than God. What a great teaching to justify sinning, and it comes directly from Satan who taught it from the beginning when he tempted Eve by saying that it didn't matter if she disobeys God, she shall not surely die. It's a false teaching that Satan brought in from the beginning, and it is still in many churches today! Teaching that you're saved and no matter what you do, you shall not surely die because Jesus, who is God, died in your place as a sacrifice to God and you don't have to do anything. A false teaching that comes directly from the devil himself, and it goes against the teachings of Jesus, and it's bringing people deeper into hell as they fall for their temptations because think that they don't have to do anything. Because they've been told that it's not their works that can do anything, but you never hear that they are you do the works of God. So they carry on living how they please, is a disgusting teaching, and it's false. And they say half verses to suit them and try to justify themselves with the following. "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" and completely miss out the rest of the verse which says, "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" making that verse of no effect, but there is condemnation for those who still walk after the flesh once we know God. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. There is absolutely no truth in once saved always saved. We are saved from past sins when we believe and repent. Then we have to turn from wilfully sinning and live by the will of God. And Jesus clearly says the he will turn away those who are workers iniquity. And even Paul says that he can be cast away if he didn't keep his body under control, so he didn't believe that he was saved no matter what he done, and if Paul can be cast away, then so can we. But you won't believe that either will you? Even though I can quote the verses that clearly say those things. Just like you don't believe Jesus when he says that the only true God is father in John 17:3 and that it pleased not God to kill Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 2, if it pleased not God to kill Jesus, then God wouldn't want him to be a human sacrifice to him. I hope one day you'll see the truth. As seen clearly here 1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. And those who work iniquity are not saved Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Post by openingact34 on Nov 4, 2023 12:06:53 GMT -5
Proper church structure would also eliminate sister workers and finally shut up women in the meetings.
On Cherie Kropp's website for ex-2x2s, John MacArthur is one of the top recommended pastors. Here's what he has to say:
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 4, 2023 12:22:41 GMT -5
God ordered murder in the OT. He ordered the killing of women and children and even the animals but to save the young virgin girls for their wives. A 12 year old reading that can only interpret that literally. There was no way after reading it, that I could justify worshiping a god like that. I now understand of course that no god ordered any such thing, but it was merely the Hebrew people justifying their attempt at genocide. I see the old testament completely different to you. I know that God's people wouldn't kill, it means putting sin to death. It's not literal. God said thou shalt not kill, Jesus came as an example to follow. He says, "when you see me you see the father" meaning you see the love of the father living through him and Jesus says it's wrong to kill and if we do, then we don't follow the law that Moses gave. John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? And James says this James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. And Jesus is in the express image of the father, because the father was in him reconciling the world unto himself by the word of God, and not by him dying on a cross. So if Jesus is in the express image of the father and is against killing then so is God. Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Is this verse literal or metaphorical? Genesis 12:7. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates – the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgash-es and Jebusites."
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Post by Pragmatic on Nov 4, 2023 14:34:59 GMT -5
Some like to re-write history in their own minds to justify their current thinking.
Personally, I just say that there are some things I cannot reconcile, and leave it at that. Many things in the the first few books are "fairy tales", in other words, not literal. Easy. But then you come to later OT books, and things that occurred under David, for example, and they certainly appear to be literal.
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Post by snow on Nov 4, 2023 16:28:45 GMT -5
God ordered murder in the OT. He ordered the killing of women and children and even the animals but to save the young virgin girls for their wives. A 12 year old reading that can only interpret that literally. There was no way after reading it, that I could justify worshiping a god like that. I now understand of course that no god ordered any such thing, but it was merely the Hebrew people justifying their attempt at genocide. I see the old testament completely different to you. I know that God's people wouldn't kill, it means putting sin to death. It's not literal. God said thou shalt not kill, Jesus came as an example to follow. He says, "when you see me you see the father" meaning you see the love of the father living through him and Jesus says it's wrong to kill and if we do, then we don't follow the law that Moses gave. John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? And James says this James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. And Jesus is in the express image of the father, because the father was in him reconciling the world unto himself by the word of God, and not by him dying on a cross. So if Jesus is in the express image of the father and is against killing then so is God. Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. History outside the bible has the Hebrews at war much of the time and they spent a lot of time in captivity because they lost a good number of times. The Israelites were considered Gods people (by them of course) and they historically were in wars where they killed. So I'm not sure why you don't believe that they justified their attempt at genocide of the Amalekites to be metaphorical when history says the opposite? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 4, 2023 18:12:54 GMT -5
I see the old testament completely different to you. I know that God's people wouldn't kill, it means putting sin to death. It's not literal. God said thou shalt not kill, Jesus came as an example to follow. He says, "when you see me you see the father" meaning you see the love of the father living through him and Jesus says it's wrong to kill and if we do, then we don't follow the law that Moses gave. John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? And James says this James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. And Jesus is in the express image of the father, because the father was in him reconciling the world unto himself by the word of God, and not by him dying on a cross. So if Jesus is in the express image of the father and is against killing then so is God. Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. History outside the bible has the Hebrews at war much of the time and they spent a lot of time in captivity because they lost a good number of times. The Israelites were considered Gods people (by them of course) and they historically were in wars where they killed. So I'm not sure why you don't believe that they justified their attempt at genocide of the Amalekites to be metaphorical when history says the opposite? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel Palestine is/was/always will be the crossroads among three continents, and that has made it the perfect place for expansionists from all three continents to do battle. It would be hoped that the advances in air and sea travel, and the modern methods of communication, would relieve the stress on that piece of land. But the usual problem remains -- the tribalist values of human beings.
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Post by chuck on Nov 4, 2023 19:34:00 GMT -5
I would say it's extremely ignorant of what the letters G O D represent in the OT. The OT is a narative of one group of people trying to live up to a certain set of ideals(like us sometimes they got it right sometimes they didn't), but now when read with the western language and its own philosophy and concepts these letters G O D have been turned into a actual literal being which drastically changes the intent and picture people get in their head.......and it all goes downhill from there.... When you grow up in the 'truth' you read the OT as it literally is written. There is no access to a theology that makes it sound metaphorical or relates to what the Hebrew people may or may not have meant. When I read about the OT god at 12, I understood that he ordered the Hebrews to kill all the women and children, even the animals, but to keep the young virgin girls for their wives. If that isn't enough to turn anyone away from worshiping such a god I don't know what would? I don't disagree. I just think its rediculous how a vast number of people still actively choose not to look at any context surrounding the document they structure their life around given how much information there is availabe at our fingertips now about the Hebrew people or the historical arc of the religion Christianity......for example the idea that "Jesus died for our sins" or the payment theory of atonement seems to be actually absent for the first thousand years of Christianity until Anselm of Canterbury populatised it and basically made it doctrine in the 11th century. So one of the fundamental principles to the religion Christianity was highly likely born 1000 years after Jesus and what it is more likely to have meant is "Jesus died because of our sin" instead of "Jesus died for our sins", that single line renders the religion Christianity absolutely useless, or the knowledge of the Hebrew idea of G O D and how the bible presents G O D as literary character as a tool to pass on wisdom but western philosophy literalised the literary character and killed people who did acknowledge their creation..... no wonder people over the ages dont want the laity to go digging...... When you were 12 this information would have been available to many religous people but they suppressed it....while I can see much good has come out of religion over the years its only because of good people within it and not the religion itself, religion is a curse imo.
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Post by Dan on Nov 4, 2023 20:02:41 GMT -5
Your right, God did not need God to be a sacrifice, we did..
The verse you emphasized (Romans 6:18) says "Being made free of sin, ye became servants of righteousness". That's a past tense statement, We were freed of sin when he took our transgressions upon himself.
Your confusing forgiveness with atonement, they are 2 separate things. Forgiveness alone does not blot-out sin, he who suffered the consequences for sin fulfilled the law. Adhering to his word does not cleanse a person of sin, there's nothing we can do to erase our own sins.
We don't need God to come here to be a human sacrifice to save us from God. That is not the truth, it sounds ridiculous. I'm sorry but I don't agree with you, what you believe isn't the truth. A human sacrifice can never save us. Many say that they believe and that Jesus died for them and that God can't see their sins because they are covered by the death of Jesus. They can still sin and still be saved, which isn't the truth because if we are truly being saved then we should be turning from sin and obeying God's word. But they carry on living a life that goes against the teachings of Jesus because they love their flesh more than God. What a great teaching to justify sinning, and it comes directly from Satan who taught it from the beginning when he tempted Eve by saying that it didn't matter if she disobeys God, she shall not surely die. It's a false teaching that Satan brought in from the beginning, and it is still in many churches today! Teaching that you're saved and no matter what you do, you shall not surely die because Jesus, who is God, died in your place as a sacrifice to God and you don't have to do anything. A false teaching that comes directly from the devil himself, and it goes against the teachings of Jesus, and it's bringing people deeper into hell as they fall for their temptations because think that they don't have to do anything. Because they've been told that it's not their works that can do anything, but you never hear that they are you do the works of God. So they carry on living how they please, is a disgusting teaching, and it's false. And they say half verses to suit them and try to justify themselves with the following. "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" and completely miss out the rest of the verse which says, "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" making that verse of no effect, but there is condemnation for those who still walk after the flesh once we know God. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. There is absolutely no truth in once saved always saved. We are saved from past sins when we believe and repent. Then we have to turn from wilfully sinning and live by the will of God. And Jesus clearly says the he will turn away those who are workers iniquity. And even Paul says that he can be cast away if he didn't keep his body under control, so he didn't believe that he was saved no matter what he done, and if Paul can be cast away, then so can we. But you won't believe that either will you? Even though I can quote the verses that clearly say those things. Just like you don't believe Jesus when he says that the only true God is father in John 17:3 and that it pleased not God to kill Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 2, if it pleased not God to kill Jesus, then God wouldn't want him to be a human sacrifice to him. I hope one day you'll see the truth. As seen clearly here 1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. And those who work iniquity are not saved Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
No where did I indicate that I am a proponent of OSAS (once saved always saved).. I am not advocating that the sacrifice of Jesus green lighted sin. We are all accountable for what we do, an unrepentant sinner is not automatically washed of sins, nor is a hypocrite. Everything in the bible is conditional.
My broader point was that no one is saved without Christ because we are all guilty of sin and the penalty for sin is death. Your espousing that the crucifixion was a trivial end to Christ, that it had no purpose and was suffered in vain, because Jesus atoned for nothing.. That's a pill most Christians can't swallow.
If Jesus didn't atone for sin, then he was no Savior and we are all dead to sin. Where in the bible did God decide sin would not be punished? Where did Jesus teach us to atone for our own sins? Your correct that Jesus inspired us to follow him and that believers who do will be saved, but its because salvation fell on his shoulders. We are cleansed of sin because of what he did, not because we aspire to flee from sin.
Your convince that you can be good enough to blot-out your own sins and save yourself, but my response to that notion is as you said, "That is not the truth, it sounds ridiculous". Only a perfect & sinless unblemished lamb of God could atone for sin, and what Jesus did for our sake's was the greatest demonstration of divine love ever witnessed. That's the meaning of, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends...Ye are my friends" (John 15:13).
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Post by maryhig on Nov 5, 2023 0:49:50 GMT -5
I see the old testament completely different to you. I know that God's people wouldn't kill, it means putting sin to death. It's not literal. God said thou shalt not kill, Jesus came as an example to follow. He says, "when you see me you see the father" meaning you see the love of the father living through him and Jesus says it's wrong to kill and if we do, then we don't follow the law that Moses gave. John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? And James says this James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. And Jesus is in the express image of the father, because the father was in him reconciling the world unto himself by the word of God, and not by him dying on a cross. So if Jesus is in the express image of the father and is against killing then so is God. Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. History outside the bible has the Hebrews at war much of the time and they spent a lot of time in captivity because they lost a good number of times. The Israelites were considered Gods people (by them of course) and they historically were in wars where they killed. So I'm not sure why you don't believe that they justified their attempt at genocide of the Amalekites to be metaphorical when history says the opposite? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel That's people attacking them, I have always said if people came into my home to hurt my children or grandchildren I'd fight back with whatever means necessary. But I wouldn't go out purposely to kill their families. Even if they did that to my family. What they did to me, isn't their children's fault That goes for Israel too, if others go into their country to fight then yes they will fight back I've never said they didn't fight back when attacked. The world will war, that's what happens in this world of war and chaos. But I believe that Gods people don't go out purposely to kill and murder. They go out to fight with the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. As Paul said, our weapons of warfare are not carnal. And God said thou shalt not kill. And I believe him.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 5, 2023 0:54:09 GMT -5
I see the old testament completely different to you. I know that God's people wouldn't kill, it means putting sin to death. It's not literal. God said thou shalt not kill, Jesus came as an example to follow. He says, "when you see me you see the father" meaning you see the love of the father living through him and Jesus says it's wrong to kill and if we do, then we don't follow the law that Moses gave. John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? And James says this James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. And Jesus is in the express image of the father, because the father was in him reconciling the world unto himself by the word of God, and not by him dying on a cross. So if Jesus is in the express image of the father and is against killing then so is God. Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Is this verse literal or metaphorical? Genesis 12:7. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates – the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgash-es and Jebusites." Give the land? That can mean more things than kill everyone.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 5, 2023 1:18:52 GMT -5
When you grow up in the 'truth' you read the OT as it literally is written. There is no access to a theology that makes it sound metaphorical or relates to what the Hebrew people may or may not have meant. When I read about the OT god at 12, I understood that he ordered the Hebrews to kill all the women and children, even the animals, but to keep the young virgin girls for their wives. If that isn't enough to turn anyone away from worshiping such a god I don't know what would? I don't disagree. I just think its rediculous how a vast number of people still actively choose not to look at any context surrounding the document they structure their life around given how much information there is availabe at our fingertips now about the Hebrew people or the historical arc of the religion Christianity......for example the idea that "Jesus died for our sins" or the payment theory of atonement seems to be actually absent for the first thousand years of Christianity until Anselm of Canterbury populatised it and basically made it doctrine in the 11th century. So one of the fundamental principles to the religion Christianity was highly likely born 1000 years after Jesus and what it is more likely to have meant is "Jesus died because of our sin" instead of "Jesus died for our sins", that single line renders the religion Christianity absolutely useless, or the knowledge of the Hebrew idea of G O D and how the bible presents G O D as literary character as a tool to pass on wisdom but western philosophy literalised the literary character and killed people who did acknowledge their creation..... no wonder people over the ages dont want the laity to go digging...... When you were 12 this information would have been available to many religous people but they suppressed it....while I can see much good has come out of religion over the years its only because of good people within it and not the religion itself, religion is a curse imo. That's good what you say about the first 1000 years, that shows us that the gospel meaning was changed by the different denominations of Christianity. I know that God wouldn't want a human sacrifice, what would be the purpose of that, and what would it gain? Nothing, our sins still remain, our sins cannot be washed away by literal blood that's 2000 years old. That all makes no sense whatsoever. For our sins to be removed in our daily lives then we must deny ourselves, and God helps us to overcome them once we start to try not to do it. When Jesus told them that their sins where forgiven, he was speaking of their past sins which they did in ignorance, but he then told them to go sin no more. He even told one man that if he carries on, then a worse thing will come upon him. And that's what happens to us, we go deeper and deeper into whatsoever wrong we do wrong until we can't get out, and we create our own personal hell. Jesus never once taught that we must believe that he is God, or that we must believe that he is going to be a human sacrifice for our sins for us to be saved. Nowhere did he preach that these things are requirements for salivation, and what he preached is the gospel. He taught that those who are saved live by the will of his father in heaven, not by him being murdered and not by believing he is God. I agree with most of your post, but I don't agree with calling God a character, that sounds like he's made up, he's not a character he's the living God of all creation.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 5, 2023 1:20:51 GMT -5
We don't need God to come here to be a human sacrifice to save us from God. That is not the truth, it sounds ridiculous. I'm sorry but I don't agree with you, what you believe isn't the truth. A human sacrifice can never save us. Many say that they believe and that Jesus died for them and that God can't see their sins because they are covered by the death of Jesus. They can still sin and still be saved, which isn't the truth because if we are truly being saved then we should be turning from sin and obeying God's word. But they carry on living a life that goes against the teachings of Jesus because they love their flesh more than God. What a great teaching to justify sinning, and it comes directly from Satan who taught it from the beginning when he tempted Eve by saying that it didn't matter if she disobeys God, she shall not surely die. It's a false teaching that Satan brought in from the beginning, and it is still in many churches today! Teaching that you're saved and no matter what you do, you shall not surely die because Jesus, who is God, died in your place as a sacrifice to God and you don't have to do anything. A false teaching that comes directly from the devil himself, and it goes against the teachings of Jesus, and it's bringing people deeper into hell as they fall for their temptations because think that they don't have to do anything. Because they've been told that it's not their works that can do anything, but you never hear that they are you do the works of God. So they carry on living how they please, is a disgusting teaching, and it's false. And they say half verses to suit them and try to justify themselves with the following. "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" and completely miss out the rest of the verse which says, "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" making that verse of no effect, but there is condemnation for those who still walk after the flesh once we know God. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. There is absolutely no truth in once saved always saved. We are saved from past sins when we believe and repent. Then we have to turn from wilfully sinning and live by the will of God. And Jesus clearly says the he will turn away those who are workers iniquity. And even Paul says that he can be cast away if he didn't keep his body under control, so he didn't believe that he was saved no matter what he done, and if Paul can be cast away, then so can we. But you won't believe that either will you? Even though I can quote the verses that clearly say those things. Just like you don't believe Jesus when he says that the only true God is father in John 17:3 and that it pleased not God to kill Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 2, if it pleased not God to kill Jesus, then God wouldn't want him to be a human sacrifice to him. I hope one day you'll see the truth. As seen clearly here 1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. And those who work iniquity are not saved Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
No where did I indicate that I am a proponent of OSAS (once saved always saved).. I am not advocating that the sacrifice of Jesus green lighted sin. We are all accountable for what we do, an unrepentant sinner is not automatically washed of sins, nor is a hypocrite. Everything in the bible is conditional.
My broader point was that no one is saved without Christ because we are all guilty of sin and the penalty for sin is death. Your espousing that the crucifixion was a trivial end to Christ, that it had no purpose and was suffered in vain, because Jesus atoned for nothing.. That's a pill most Christians can't swallow.
If Jesus didn't atone for sin, then he was no Savior and we are all dead to sin. Where in the bible did God decide sin would not be punished? Where did Jesus teach us to atone for our own sins? Your correct that Jesus inspired us to follow him and that believers who do will be saved, but its because salvation fell on his shoulders. We are cleansed of sin because of what he did, not because we aspire to flee from sin.
Your convince that you can be good enough to blot-out your own sins and save yourself, but my response to that notion is as you said, "That is not the truth, it sounds ridiculous". Only a perfect & sinless unblemished lamb of God could atone for sin, and what Jesus did for our sake's was the greatest demonstration of divine love ever witnessed. That's the meaning of, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends...Ye are my friends" (John 15:13).
So if we're all accountable for our sins, then why did Jesus die as a human sacrifice for our sins then?
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Post by maryhig on Nov 5, 2023 1:25:45 GMT -5
We don't need God to come here to be a human sacrifice to save us from God. That is not the truth, it sounds ridiculous. I'm sorry but I don't agree with you, what you believe isn't the truth. A human sacrifice can never save us. Many say that they believe and that Jesus died for them and that God can't see their sins because they are covered by the death of Jesus. They can still sin and still be saved, which isn't the truth because if we are truly being saved then we should be turning from sin and obeying God's word. But they carry on living a life that goes against the teachings of Jesus because they love their flesh more than God. What a great teaching to justify sinning, and it comes directly from Satan who taught it from the beginning when he tempted Eve by saying that it didn't matter if she disobeys God, she shall not surely die. It's a false teaching that Satan brought in from the beginning, and it is still in many churches today! Teaching that you're saved and no matter what you do, you shall not surely die because Jesus, who is God, died in your place as a sacrifice to God and you don't have to do anything. A false teaching that comes directly from the devil himself, and it goes against the teachings of Jesus, and it's bringing people deeper into hell as they fall for their temptations because think that they don't have to do anything. Because they've been told that it's not their works that can do anything, but you never hear that they are you do the works of God. So they carry on living how they please, is a disgusting teaching, and it's false. And they say half verses to suit them and try to justify themselves with the following. "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" and completely miss out the rest of the verse which says, "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" making that verse of no effect, but there is condemnation for those who still walk after the flesh once we know God. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. There is absolutely no truth in once saved always saved. We are saved from past sins when we believe and repent. Then we have to turn from wilfully sinning and live by the will of God. And Jesus clearly says the he will turn away those who are workers iniquity. And even Paul says that he can be cast away if he didn't keep his body under control, so he didn't believe that he was saved no matter what he done, and if Paul can be cast away, then so can we. But you won't believe that either will you? Even though I can quote the verses that clearly say those things. Just like you don't believe Jesus when he says that the only true God is father in John 17:3 and that it pleased not God to kill Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 2, if it pleased not God to kill Jesus, then God wouldn't want him to be a human sacrifice to him. I hope one day you'll see the truth. As seen clearly here 1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. And those who work iniquity are not saved Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
No where did I indicate that I am a proponent of OSAS (once saved always saved).. I am not advocating that the sacrifice of Jesus green lighted sin. We are all accountable for what we do, an unrepentant sinner is not automatically washed of sins, nor is a hypocrite. Everything in the bible is conditional.
My broader point was that no one is saved without Christ because we are all guilty of sin and the penalty for sin is death. Your espousing that the crucifixion was a trivial end to Christ, that it had no purpose and was suffered in vain, because Jesus atoned for nothing.. That's a pill most Christians can't swallow.
If Jesus didn't atone for sin, then he was no Savior and we are all dead to sin. Where in the bible did God decide sin would not be punished? Where did Jesus teach us to atone for our own sins? Your correct that Jesus inspired us to follow him and that believers who do will be saved, but its because salvation fell on his shoulders. We are cleansed of sin because of what he did, not because we aspire to flee from sin.
Your convince that you can be good enough to blot-out your own sins and save yourself, but my response to that notion is as you said, "That is not the truth, it sounds ridiculous". Only a perfect & sinless unblemished lamb of God could atone for sin, and what Jesus did for our sake's was the greatest demonstration of divine love ever witnessed. That's the meaning of, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends...Ye are my friends" (John 15:13).
Where did Jesus himself preach the things that you are saying in the gospels? Where did he say that we must believe what you are saying to be saved? Can you give me chapter and verse please? Thanks
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Post by Dan on Nov 5, 2023 12:42:57 GMT -5
No where did I indicate that I am a proponent of OSAS (once saved always saved).. I am not advocating that the sacrifice of Jesus green lighted sin. We are all accountable for what we do, an unrepentant sinner is not automatically washed of sins, nor is a hypocrite. Everything in the bible is conditional.
My broader point was that no one is saved without Christ because we are all guilty of sin and the penalty for sin is death. Your espousing that the crucifixion was a trivial end to Christ, that it had no purpose and was suffered in vain, because Jesus atoned for nothing.. That's a pill most Christians can't swallow.
If Jesus didn't atone for sin, then he was no Savior and we are all dead to sin. Where in the bible did God decide sin would not be punished? Where did Jesus teach us to atone for our own sins? Your correct that Jesus inspired us to follow him and that believers who do will be saved, but its because salvation fell on his shoulders. We are cleansed of sin because of what he did, not because we aspire to flee from sin.
Your convince that you can be good enough to blot-out your own sins and save yourself, but my response to that notion is as you said, "That is not the truth, it sounds ridiculous". Only a perfect & sinless unblemished lamb of God could atone for sin, and what Jesus did for our sake's was the greatest demonstration of divine love ever witnessed. That's the meaning of, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends...Ye are my friends" (John 15:13).
So if we're all accountable for our sins, then why did Jesus die as a human sacrifice for our sins then?
Where did Jesus himself preach the things that you are saying in the gospels? Where did he say that we must believe what you are saying to be saved? Can you give me chapter and verse please? Thanks
I posted many verses which stipulate that Jesus was sacrificed for the remission of sin;
Hebrews 13:12 - Jesus sanctified the people with his own blood. Isaiah 53:5 - Jesus was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. 1 John 2:2 - Jesus Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Romans 3:25 - God presented Jesus as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood. 2 Corinthians 5:21 - Jesus was made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. 1 Peter 2:24 - "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." Hebrews 9:12 - "By his own blood .. obtained eternal redemption for us." Revelation 5:9 - "Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood" Hebrews 9:22 - By law sin is purged with blood, there's no remission of sin without shedding blood.
Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Ephesians 1:7 - "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace" 1 John 4:10 - "Sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" Hebrews 9:26 - "He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." 1 Peter 3:18 - "For Christ also died for sins once for all" Revelation 1:5 - "To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood" Galatians 1:4 - "Who gave himself for our sins"
The bible describes His death as having a greater significance than mere martyrdom. Jesus satisfied the law by answering the offense of sin, suffering the curse of the law by taking our sins upon himself, "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:19). “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity" (Titus 2:14).
We are accountable for our sins, and we can't redeem ourselves. Jesus took our sins upon himself, atonement literally means “covering”. He was the substitutionary answer by purchasing our debts and paying the price for our shortcomings.
God will not tolerate sin (Habakkuk 1:13), no sin will enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). No one that is not washed in the lambs blood can enter eternal life (John 1:29). No one can cleanse themselves of sin, we are prisoners to sin and there is but one that liberated us from our inequities.
I sense that you don't philosophically approve of God's methodological way of dealing with sin? Its too barbaric for your taste so you substitute a more pleasant spiritual remedy to replace it. But your answer is unjust and unrighteous, you can't make sin vanish because you've had a change of heart. When your power bill comes due, good intentions won't keep the lights on, someone has got to pay the freight, otherwise its lights out.
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Post by snow on Nov 5, 2023 15:38:51 GMT -5
When you grow up in the 'truth' you read the OT as it literally is written. There is no access to a theology that makes it sound metaphorical or relates to what the Hebrew people may or may not have meant. When I read about the OT god at 12, I understood that he ordered the Hebrews to kill all the women and children, even the animals, but to keep the young virgin girls for their wives. If that isn't enough to turn anyone away from worshiping such a god I don't know what would? I don't disagree. I just think its rediculous how a vast number of people still actively choose not to look at any context surrounding the document they structure their life around given how much information there is availabe at our fingertips now about the Hebrew people or the historical arc of the religion Christianity......for example the idea that "Jesus died for our sins" or the payment theory of atonement seems to be actually absent for the first thousand years of Christianity until Anselm of Canterbury populatised it and basically made it doctrine in the 11th century. So one of the fundamental principles to the religion Christianity was highly likely born 1000 years after Jesus and what it is more likely to have meant is "Jesus died because of our sin" instead of "Jesus died for our sins", that single line renders the religion Christianity absolutely useless, or the knowledge of the Hebrew idea of G O D and how the bible presents G O D as literary character as a tool to pass on wisdom but western philosophy literalised the literary character and killed people who did acknowledge their creation..... no wonder people over the ages dont want the laity to go digging...... When you were 12 this information would have been available to many religous people but they suppressed it....while I can see much good has come out of religion over the years its only because of good people within it and not the religion itself, religion is a curse imo. I agree with a lot of what you have said. I have studied the history of Christianity but not as much the history of Judaism. I was more interested in seeing how Christianity started, evolved etc. There were many different branches even at the outset of Christianity that interpreted their understanding of what happened differently. That is one reason why I have absolutely no confidence in the validity of Christianity. I also agree that religion has caused some of the best in our world because of good people in religion. I also acknowledge that religion has caused some of the worst in our world because of greedy people that have no care whatsoever for humanity. We are seeing that right now. It continues to happen. Those who are working to aid those who are so compromised in this new war are the good of secular society and likely some of the good people that adhere to Christianity and Judaism. But again we are seeing the worst that religion brings into our world by those who justify using their religion to further their agendas.
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Post by snow on Nov 5, 2023 15:42:59 GMT -5
History outside the bible has the Hebrews at war much of the time and they spent a lot of time in captivity because they lost a good number of times. The Israelites were considered Gods people (by them of course) and they historically were in wars where they killed. So I'm not sure why you don't believe that they justified their attempt at genocide of the Amalekites to be metaphorical when history says the opposite? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel That's people attacking them, I have always said if people came into my home to hurt my children or grandchildren I'd fight back with whatever means necessary. But I wouldn't go out purposely to kill their families. Even if they did that to my family. What they did to me, isn't their children's fault That goes for Israel too, if others go into their country to fight then yes they will fight back I've never said they didn't fight back when attacked. The world will war, that's what happens in this world of war and chaos. But I believe that Gods people don't go out purposely to kill and murder. They go out to fight with the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. As Paul said, our weapons of warfare are not carnal. And God said thou shalt not kill. And I believe him. It wasn't just other countries attacking Israel. Israel attacked others too trying to take the land that they believed was given to them by their God and it was their God given right to take it and if that meant committing genocides, well, that's okay because they have God's blessing. Right now they are fighting over that same piece of land because both sides believe God is on their side and gave them this land. They are all murdering each other instead of living in peace which is what a God is supposed to support. But then we have a lot of people that really like the OT god that gives them permission to kill in his name, in their opinion. Wrong or right it's what is being done.
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