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Post by xna on Dec 7, 2023 16:24:22 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Dec 7, 2023 16:55:54 GMT -5
People die in wars. Hamas loves these images because they want the world to hate Israel, a tiny country fighting an existential war against terror. They impoverished Gaza to build tunnels for their fighters, and said that protecting civilians is the responsibility of the UN. Next door in Syria no one cares about the carnage the Assad regime and Russia have inflicted on civilians. On the 12th Anniversary of the Popular Uprising:- A Total of 230,224 Civilians Documented as Dead, including 15,275 Who Died due to Torture
- 154,871 Arrested and/or Forcibly Disappeared
- Roughly 14 Million Syrians Displaced
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Post by xna on Dec 7, 2023 18:44:05 GMT -5
People die in wars. Hamas loves these images because they want the world to hate Israel, a tiny country fighting an existential war against terror.
I agree with what you wrote here. I don't have a solution to the problem other than remove the main reason they keep fighting, ie their religion. This is very unlikely. Israel's new problems are: - much of the world sees this as a very unfair fight - much of the world thinks Israel is making more enemies - not less - much of the world sees this as genocide. - much of the world thinks Israel does not have an end game, other than "mowing the lawn" - much of the world sees the USA as an enabler to this war. - much of the younger generation in the USA oppose this war and no longer see the need to give Israel foreign aid. Israel would be just fine without the USA foreign aid money as it's only about 1% of their GDP, but they do need the USA military as a backstop. Palestinians in Gaza are dramatically out gunned, and trapped in a fenced camp, with no where to go. Today there are more civilians than Hamas being killed in Gaza by a factor of 2:1 The death ratio within Gaza now stands at 202:1 (17,777: 88)
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Post by fixit on Dec 7, 2023 19:55:36 GMT -5
I don't believe Israel is fighting for religion.
They're fighting for security.
Much of the world is anti-Semitic, which is why deaths in Gaza are of greater concern than Israeli or Syrian deaths.
The world should stop kidding itself that it has a solution.
The government of Gaza started a war with Israel, so the territory has to be subdued.
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Post by xna on Dec 7, 2023 20:30:36 GMT -5
I don't believe Israel is fighting for religion.
They're fighting for security.
Much of the world is anti-Semitic, which is why deaths in Gaza are of greater concern than Israeli or Syrian deaths.
The world should stop kidding itself that it has a solution.
The government of Gaza started a war with Israel, so the territory has to be subdued. If it’s not about religion, then why are they fighting there, and why do they keep fighting for generations? I believe the reason is because of religion. The Jews think their god gave the land to them alone. They think they are the special chosen ones by god and their neighbors don’t agree. Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Until people let the past be bygone’s and start anew, they will keep the old battles and hate alive. Their religion keeps these old battles alive. Today is the start of Hanukkah were the Jews even today celebrate the Maccabean Revolt in the 2nd century BCE. The Jewish rebellion, led by the Maccabees against the Seleucid King Antiochus king of the Syrian kingdom. The successful revolt ultimately led to the rededication of the temple and the miracle of the oil. In contrast, today is also the day Pearl Harbor was attacked in 1941, by the Japanese. Why has the fighting stopped there? Because both have let the past be bygones, and started anew. The Jews and Arabs won’t do this because of their religion tells them who is their forever enemy. Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong.
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Post by fixit on Dec 7, 2023 21:18:36 GMT -5
18% of Israelis are Muslim.
How many Muslim countries treat their minorities better?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 7, 2023 21:31:54 GMT -5
18% of Israelis are Muslim. How many Muslim countries treat their minorities better? When Hitler came to power in the 1930's and started his anti jew funny businees, thousands of jews left Europe heading for Mandatory Palestine. Once there they started causing no end of bother, so much that the British were getting really annoyed with them and stopped many at the border and turned them away. Once WW2 was over there was a general feeling that the jews needed a homeland. That is when the trouble really started. They have progressed from been given a portion of Mandatory Palestine to being the South Africa of todays generation. It appears only the USA are supportive of them. The rest of the west are beginning to realize that Israel has become a pariah state. It is on a par with Iran or Afghanistan, two other countries where religion rules supreme. It appears that the USA, especially the republicans would have bottomless pockets when it comes to supporting Israel but are not keen at all on supporting Ukraine which is a much more worthy cause. Basing ones claim to some country on a mythical book has led to these troubles. The root of the problem is clearly religion.
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Post by xna on Dec 7, 2023 21:55:55 GMT -5
18% of Israelis are Muslim.
How many Muslim countries treat their minorities better?I find the Jews treat the minorities differently depending if they are secular or religious Jews. The secular Jews tend to be more tolerant of minorities. The more religious the Jew, the more intolerant they are of anyone not like themselves. The very religious Jews and the reformed Jews also don't like or treat each other very well. I find a positive correlation between religiosity and xenophobia is not limited to Judaism but is consistent across many religions. I don't have any direct knowledge outside Israel, but here is what the internet says; " Some countries with significant Muslim populations have been recognized for relatively better treatment of religious and ethnic minorities. One example often cited is Indonesia, which has a diverse population and officially recognizes multiple religions. Indonesia has a constitution that guarantees religious freedom, and there are various religious communities coexisting in the country.
Senegal in West Africa is another example where Muslims and Christians have historically lived peacefully together, and the country is known for its religious tolerance."
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Post by xna on Dec 7, 2023 22:00:53 GMT -5
[When Hitler came to power in the 1930's and started his anti jew funny businees, thousands of jews left Europe heading for Mandatory Palestine. Once there they started causing no end of bother, so much that the British were getting really annoyed with them and stopped many at the border and turned them away. Once WW2 was over there was a general feeling that the jews needed a homeland. That is when the trouble really started. They have progressed from been given a portion of Mandatory Palestine to being the South Africa of todays generation. It appears only the USA are supportive of them. The rest of the west are beginning to realize that Israel has become a pariah state. It is on a par with Iran or Afghanistan, two other countries where religion rules supreme. It appears that the USA, especially the republicans would have bottomless pockets when it comes to supporting Israel but are not keen at all on supporting Ukraine which is a much more worthy cause. Basing ones claim to some country on a mythical book has led to these troubles. The root of the problem is clearly religion. I understand before Hitler Martin Luther was anti-Semitic. He wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies". Luther made derogatory and hostile statements against Jews, advocating for harsh measures including their expulsion from Christian lands, confiscation of their property, and destruction of their synagogues.
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Post by fixit on Dec 7, 2023 22:27:50 GMT -5
18% of Israelis are Muslim. How many Muslim countries treat their minorities better? When Hitler came to power in the 1930's and started his anti jew funny businees, thousands of jews left Europe heading for Mandatory Palestine. Once there they started causing no end of bother, so much that the British were getting really annoyed with them and stopped many at the border and turned them away. Once WW2 was over there was a general feeling that the jews needed a homeland. That is when the trouble really started. They have progressed from been given a portion of Mandatory Palestine to being the South Africa of todays generation. It appears only the USA are supportive of them. The rest of the west are beginning to realize that Israel has become a pariah state. It is on a par with Iran or Afghanistan, two other countries where religion rules supreme. It appears that the USA, especially the republicans would have bottomless pockets when it comes to supporting Israel but are not keen at all on supporting Ukraine which is a much more worthy cause. Basing ones claim to some country on a mythical book has led to these troubles. The root of the problem is clearly religion. For sure, Jews have been heinously persecuted for thousands of years by people who despised their religion. Where can Jews live where they feel safe? People have been migrating for thousands of years. If you think Jews have no right to live in Palestine, you would also have to send tens of millions of other migrants back to where they came from (including many times more Muslims than the few who were allegedly displaced by Jews).
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 7, 2023 23:00:20 GMT -5
When Hitler came to power in the 1930's and started his anti jew funny businees, thousands of jews left Europe heading for Mandatory Palestine. Once there they started causing no end of bother, so much that the British were getting really annoyed with them and stopped many at the border and turned them away. Once WW2 was over there was a general feeling that the jews needed a homeland. That is when the trouble really started. They have progressed from been given a portion of Mandatory Palestine to being the South Africa of todays generation. It appears only the USA are supportive of them. The rest of the west are beginning to realize that Israel has become a pariah state. It is on a par with Iran or Afghanistan, two other countries where religion rules supreme. It appears that the USA, especially the republicans would have bottomless pockets when it comes to supporting Israel but are not keen at all on supporting Ukraine which is a much more worthy cause. Basing ones claim to some country on a mythical book has led to these troubles. The root of the problem is clearly religion. For sure, Jews have been heinously persecuted for thousands of years by people who despised their religion. Where can Jews live where they feel safe? People have been migrating for thousands of years. If you think Jews have no right to live in Palestine, you would also have to send tens of millions of other migrants back to where they came from (including many times more Muslims than the few who were allegedly displaced by Jews). Have you ever thought that the jews problems stem from the "We are gods chosen people" attitude?
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Post by fixit on Dec 8, 2023 0:02:12 GMT -5
For sure, Jews have been heinously persecuted for thousands of years by people who despised their religion. Where can Jews live where they feel safe? People have been migrating for thousands of years. If you think Jews have no right to live in Palestine, you would also have to send tens of millions of other migrants back to where they came from (including many times more Muslims than the few who were allegedly displaced by Jews). Have you ever thought that the jews problems stem from the "We are gods chosen people" attitude? Jews have contributed significantly to every society they have lived in, in spite of the awful treatment they have often been dealt. They don't push their religion on anyone so I don't see why anyone should get bent out of shape over their belief that they were chosen to be in covenant with God.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 8, 2023 0:14:42 GMT -5
Have you ever thought that the jews problems stem from the "We are gods chosen people" attitude? Jews have contributed significantly to every society they have lived in, in spite of the awful treatment they have often been dealt. They don't push their religion on anyone so I don't see why anyone should get bent out of shape over their belief that they were chosen to be in covenant with God. It's not about pushing their religion on others but about their attitude of superiority. That is what has got them in hot water. I have personally seen this twice here in NZ from young israelis.
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Post by fixit on Dec 8, 2023 1:12:35 GMT -5
Jews have contributed significantly to every society they have lived in, in spite of the awful treatment they have often been dealt. They don't push their religion on anyone so I don't see why anyone should get bent out of shape over their belief that they were chosen to be in covenant with God. It's not about pushing their religion on others but about their attitude of superiority. That is what has got them in hot water. I have personally seen this twice here in NZ from young israelis. You shouldn't judge an entire country from two bad experiences. Israelis often go for an OE after their compulsory military service and they are not uncommon in New Zealand. I remember being on the Able Tasman Walk with an Israeli and a German traveling together. He seemed a nice guy and I thought how cool it was to see a Jew and a German getting on so well together.
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Post by xna on Dec 8, 2023 9:01:56 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Dec 8, 2023 14:45:22 GMT -5
So it was a bad idea for the State of Palestine to commit a terrorist attack against a more powerful neighbour?
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Post by xna on Dec 8, 2023 15:10:02 GMT -5
So it was a bad idea for the State of Palestine to commit a terrorist attack against a more powerful neighbour? From the Palestinian point of view, time will tell. I doubt the Palestinians expected anything but retaliation. They have no chance by force alone to escape Gaza, but they did bring their plight to the eyes of the world. Terrorism is in general a last resort and poor strategy. Sometimes it’s hard to tell who the good and bad guys are. As they say one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. As it’s Hanukkah, it’s worth asking if the Maccabean Jewish rebels in the Maccabean Revolt, were freedom fighters or terrorists. During Hanukkah the Jews remember their fight over oppression. ------------------------------- Here is a snippet of that time "The rebellion started as a guerrilla movement in the Judean countryside, raiding towns and terrorizing Greek officials far from direct Seleucid control, but it eventually developed a proper army capable of attacking the fortified Seleucid cities...."
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Post by snow on Dec 8, 2023 16:58:46 GMT -5
[When Hitler came to power in the 1930's and started his anti jew funny businees, thousands of jews left Europe heading for Mandatory Palestine. Once there they started causing no end of bother, so much that the British were getting really annoyed with them and stopped many at the border and turned them away. Once WW2 was over there was a general feeling that the jews needed a homeland. That is when the trouble really started. They have progressed from been given a portion of Mandatory Palestine to being the South Africa of todays generation. It appears only the USA are supportive of them. The rest of the west are beginning to realize that Israel has become a pariah state. It is on a par with Iran or Afghanistan, two other countries where religion rules supreme. It appears that the USA, especially the republicans would have bottomless pockets when it comes to supporting Israel but are not keen at all on supporting Ukraine which is a much more worthy cause. Basing ones claim to some country on a mythical book has led to these troubles. The root of the problem is clearly religion. I understand before Hitler Martin Luther was anti-Semitic. He wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies". Luther made derogatory and hostile statements against Jews, advocating for harsh measures including their expulsion from Christian lands, confiscation of their property, and destruction of their synagogues. Hitler's inspiration for what he did to the Jews was fueled by Henry Ford. Hitler mentions him by name in Mein Kampf and says what an inspiration he was to him. He had a huge portrait on his wall of Henry Ford and when he was interviewed in the 20's by American reporters he mentioned how much he admired him and his view on the Jews was inspiring. Ford ran a newspaper weekly with anti Semitic headlines for years and he wrote a book called the International Jew that ran into 4 volumes, and was translated into 29 languages. He would put a copy of his newspaper on the front seat of all the new Model T's he sold. The other 2 very influential anti Semitic people in the US was a Catholic priest Charles Coughlin and Charles Lindberg. Reading the book Prequel by Rachel Maddow was very interesting. I knew Ford was anti Jew, but I never knew how influential he was and that he was Hitler's inspiration. All through recent history it's religion that has been the issue when it came to the Jewish people. I don't see it as any different today. The Middle East has always been a hotbed for strong religious differences and that has led to centuries of fighting. They both think their God gave them that land so the very religious among them will always think their hostilities are sanctioned by their particular God.
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Post by fixit on Dec 8, 2023 23:24:32 GMT -5
All through recent history it's religion that has been the issue when it came to the Jewish people. I don't see it as any different today. The Middle East has always been a hotbed for strong religious differences and that has led to centuries of fighting. They both think their God gave them that land so the very religious among them will always think their hostilities are sanctioned by their particular God. I maintain that most of the Jews in Israel want security more than anything else.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2023 23:49:53 GMT -5
All through recent history it's religion that has been the issue when it came to the Jewish people. I don't see it as any different today. The Middle East has always been a hotbed for strong religious differences and that has led to centuries of fighting. They both think their God gave them that land so the very religious among them will always think their hostilities are sanctioned by their particular God. I maintain that most of the Jews in Israel want security more than anything else. I tend to agree with fixit here. I think there are a minority who hold some influence who are religiously motivated, but I think (from what little I can understand) the term "Nationalists" probably better describes most of what we might be tempted to think of as religious Jews. Ironically, it seems that many fundamental Christians, seeing an Israel state as a requirement for Christ's second act, are more religiously motivated to defend Israel against all odds than most Jews.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2023 2:41:38 GMT -5
I understand before Hitler Martin Luther was anti-Semitic. He wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies". Luther made derogatory and hostile statements against Jews, advocating for harsh measures including their expulsion from Christian lands, confiscation of their property, and destruction of their synagogues. Hitler's inspiration for what he did to the Jews was fueled by Henry Ford. Hitler mentions him by name in Mein Kampf and says what an inspiration he was to him. He had a huge portrait on his wall of Henry Ford and when he was interviewed in the 20's by American reporters he mentioned how much he admired him and his view on the Jews was inspiring. Ford ran a newspaper weekly with anti Semitic headlines for years and he wrote a book called the International Jew that ran into 4 volumes, and was translated into 29 languages. He would put a copy of his newspaper on the front seat of all the new Model T's he sold. The other 2 very influential anti Semitic people in the US was a Catholic priest Charles Coughlin and Charles Lindberg. Reading the book Prequel by Rachel Maddow was very interesting. I knew Ford was anti Jew, but I never knew how influential he was and that he was Hitler's inspiration. All through recent history it's religion that has been the issue when it came to the Jewish people. I don't see it as any different today. The Middle East has always been a hotbed for strong religious differences and that has led to centuries of fighting. They both think their God gave them that land so the very religious among them will always think their hostilities are sanctioned by their particular God. Hitler's Nazis also got their inspiration for eugenics from the Americans' practices at the time.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2023 2:46:33 GMT -5
I maintain that most of the Jews in Israel want security more than anything else. I tend to agree with fixit here. I think there are a minority who hold some influence who are religiously motivated, but I think (from what little I can understand) the term "Nationalists" probably better describes most of what we might be tempted to think of as religious Jews. Ironically, it seems that many fundamental Christians, seeing an Israel state as a requirement for Christ's second act, are more religiously motivated to defend Israel against all odds than most Jews. You're quite right. I'm quite familiar with the Messianic Jews (Jews for Jesus) here in the US, and they are big on financial assistance to Jewish settlements in the West Bank. They object to US presidents' objection to the establishment of such settlements.
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Post by Annan on Dec 9, 2023 7:39:03 GMT -5
Jews have contributed significantly to every society they have lived in, in spite of the awful treatment they have often been dealt. They don't push their religion on anyone so I don't see why anyone should get bent out of shape over their belief that they were chosen to be in covenant with God. It's not about pushing their religion on others but about their attitude of superiority. That is what has got them in hot water. I have personally seen this twice here in NZ from young israelis. The Jews in Germany refused to fight in WWI claiming it wasn't their country. They bought up land and businesses that the German people were selling to support their country. Think about it. Not you, Curly.
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Post by snow on Dec 9, 2023 15:29:38 GMT -5
All through recent history it's religion that has been the issue when it came to the Jewish people. I don't see it as any different today. The Middle East has always been a hotbed for strong religious differences and that has led to centuries of fighting. They both think their God gave them that land so the very religious among them will always think their hostilities are sanctioned by their particular God. I maintain that most of the Jews in Israel want security more than anything else. I'm sure that's a big concern for them of course. But then holy wars do cause issues of how secure your tribe really is. I believe that most of Israel do not support what Netanyahu is doing and they blame him and his government for letting affairs to get to this level where now they really have to do something to keep Israel safe. I found this video on Putin's take on the war between Israel and Palestine. He doesn't support Israel. This situation is exactly what the Jewish Underground tried to do when they tried to bomb the Dome of the Rock. They felt that if they succeeded that the US would come in to support Israel and Russian would come in and support the other side. They then felt that would succeed in starting WWIII that would bring the apocalypses. Thankfully their plot failed. www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/legal-documents/ACLURM018956.pdf
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Post by rk0atheist on Dec 9, 2023 16:35:20 GMT -5
Talk about hypocrisy!! Of course Putin doesn't support Israel. Reports are that his Wagner Group were involved in training Hamas. Putin wants chaos. He revels in bloodshed. He relishes any chance to speak ill of the U.S. There are three important things to remember about Putin: # 1 - Putin lies # 2 - Putin lies # 3 - Putin lies speaking during a meeting at the Kremlin with leaders from different religious faiths in Russia Putin criticized the punishment being meted out to innocent civilians in Gaza particularly women children and the elderly for the actions of others
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Post by snow on Dec 9, 2023 16:46:12 GMT -5
Talk about hypocrisy!! Of course Putin doesn't support Israel. Reports are that his Wagner Group were involved in training Hamas. Putin wants chaos. He revels in bloodshed. He relishes any chance to speak ill of the U.S. There are three important things to remember about Putin: # 1 - Putin lies # 2 - Putin lies # 3 - Putin lies speaking during a meeting at the Kremlin with leaders from different religious faiths in Russia Putin criticized the punishment being meted out to innocent civilians in Gaza particularly women children and the elderly for the actions of others
I think that's a given. But Putin and Israel were becoming good buddies when Israel wouldn't condemn the Ukraine war. But you're right, Putin won't support Israel because the US does. It's likely that simple. And, that's what the Jewish Underground were counting on when they tried to blow up the Dome of the Rock. If Putin sees a way to cause more problems, he will. And, Israel and Hamas just gave him a perfect opening to cause more trouble globally imo
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Post by xna on Dec 9, 2023 18:30:12 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2023 20:12:25 GMT -5
Talk about hypocrisy!! Of course Putin doesn't support Israel. Reports are that his Wagner Group were involved in training Hamas. Putin wants chaos. He revels in bloodshed. He relishes any chance to speak ill of the U.S. There are three important things to remember about Putin: # 1 - Putin lies # 2 - Putin lies # 3 - Putin lies speaking during a meeting at the Kremlin with leaders from different religious faiths in Russia Putin criticized the punishment being meted out to innocent civilians in Gaza particularly women children and the elderly for the actions of others
I think that's a given. But Putin and Israel were becoming good buddies when Israel wouldn't condemn the Ukraine war. But you're right, Putin won't support Israel because the US does. It's likely that simple. And, that's what the Jewish Underground were counting on when they tried to blow up the Dome of the Rock. If Putin sees a way to cause more problems, he will. And, Israel and Hamas just gave him a perfect opening to cause more trouble globally imo Putin has a little problem, though, when it comes to siding against Israel. There are 1 million Israelis who speak Russian as a first language, and hardly any Palestinians who do. It doesn't convince Russian Ukrainians that his war against them was for the sake of their ethnicity.
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