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Post by xna on Oct 10, 2023 16:36:04 GMT -5
What amazes me is that most of the former friends didn't leave for biblical disagreements, they simply became nonbelievers (atheist), which suggest they never had any real problems with the church, but just didn't have any faith from the onset.
The reason "... but just didn't have any faith from the onset" wasn't true in my case. I left the 2x2 after learning about the coverup, and a feeling I could never be perfect. I lost my faith slowly after years of a free inquire into the bible.
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Post by verna on Oct 10, 2023 16:51:16 GMT -5
What amazes me is that most of the former friends didn't leave for biblical disagreements, they simply became nonbelievers (atheist), which suggest they never had any real problems with the church, but just didn't have any faith from the onset.
The reason "... but just didn't have any faith from the onset" wasn't true in my case. I left the 2x2 after learning about the coverup, and a feeling I could never be perfect. I lost my faith slowly after years of a free inquire into the bible. That was not that case for me either. My belief was complete. It brought me no joy and no peace. And now I suspect the exclusivity was a problem - and the no answers. It’s a long time ago so hard to remember exactly but it I definitely had belief and faith. Absolutely no doubt about that.
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Post by cheryl8787 on Oct 10, 2023 17:02:43 GMT -5
The reason "... but just didn't have any faith from the onset" wasn't true in my case. I left the 2x2 after learning about the coverup, and a feeling I could never be perfect. I lost my faith slowly after years of a free inquire into the bible. That was not that case for me either. My belief was complete. It brought me no joy and no peace. And now I suspect the exclusivity was a problem - and the no answers. It’s a long time ago so hard to remember exactly but it I definitely had belief and faith. Absolutely no doubt about that. Verna, you were never a Christian, nor is any 2x2. It's simply not a Christian sect. It's a hybrid between Christianity and Judaism, as is common with many of the fundamentalist exclusivist sects. The fact is, you knew next to nothing about Christianity, and neither do most 2x2s.
The entire purpose of this thread which I created, before it was hijacked by a collection of clowns, is to show how divergent 2x2ism is from actual Christian orthodoxy. To revolt against 2x2ism, is not to revolt against Christianity, but many ignorant people make that false equivalence.
We have thousands of ex-2x2s who are still trapped inside the 2x2 programming, they have only peeled back one layer of the onion.
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Post by matisse on Oct 10, 2023 18:20:05 GMT -5
Simpleton
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Post by Pragmatic on Oct 10, 2023 21:21:25 GMT -5
That was not that case for me either. My belief was complete. It brought me no joy and no peace. And now I suspect the exclusivity was a problem - and the no answers. It’s a long time ago so hard to remember exactly but it I definitely had belief and faith. Absolutely no doubt about that. Verna, you were never a Christian, nor is any 2x2. It's simply not a Christian sect. It's a hybrid between Christianity and Judaism, as is common with many of the fundamentalist exclusivist sects. The fact is, you knew next to nothing about Christianity, and neither do most 2x2s.
The entire purpose of this thread which I created, before it was hijacked by a collection of clowns, is to show how divergent 2x2ism is from actual Christian orthodoxy. To revolt against 2x2ism, is not to revolt against Christianity, but many ignorant people make that false equivalence.
We have thousands of ex-2x2s who are still trapped inside the 2x2 programming, they have only peeled back one layer of the onion.
That's a rather ascerbic reaction to Verna's post.
I also disagree with you assertion, quote "never a Christian, nor is any 2x2". A Christian is someone who is relating to or professing Christianity or its teachings, or has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Christianity.
You are saying that no 2x2 person fits that definition.
There are many 2x2ers, myself included, who's views align more to traditional orthodoxy than the not too distant history of the 2x2 church. And we do not hold to the views of exclusivity that a number of adherents do. We just happen to like the system, and interactivity of the meetings and communion concept. All churches need their iconoclasts, right?
I sometimes attend other churches, and I know of others in the 2x2 church who also do that.
What may be your experience in your part of the world is not everyone's experience everywhere, and not everyone fits your definition.
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Post by cheryl8787 on Oct 10, 2023 21:39:36 GMT -5
There are many 2x2ers, myself included, who's views align more to traditional orthodoxy than the not too distant history of the 2x2 church. And we do not hold to the views of exclusivity that a number of adherents do. We just happen to like the system, and interactivity of the meetings and communion concept. All churches need their iconoclasts, right?
You say you have traditional Christian orthodoxy views. Please say yea or nay to each of the following:
1. Nicene Creed 2. Real Presence 3. Immaculate Conception 4. Saints 5. Apostolic Succession
These are thing held by all of the liturgical denominations, and actively preached against by 2x2 ministers.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 10, 2023 22:51:52 GMT -5
There are many 2x2ers, myself included, who's views align more to traditional orthodoxy than the not too distant history of the 2x2 church. And we do not hold to the views of exclusivity that a number of adherents do. We just happen to like the system, and interactivity of the meetings and communion concept. All churches need their iconoclasts, right? You say you have traditional Christian orthodoxy views. Please say yea or nay to each of the following: 1. Nicene Creed 2. Real Presence 3. Immaculate Conception 4. Saints 5. Apostolic Succession These are thing held by all of the liturgical denominations, and actively preached against by 2x2 ministers.
Are you suggesting that only liturgical denominations are Christian?
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Post by intelchips on Oct 11, 2023 5:15:39 GMT -5
That was not that case for me either. My belief was complete. It brought me no joy and no peace. And now I suspect the exclusivity was a problem - and the no answers. It’s a long time ago so hard to remember exactly but it I definitely had belief and faith. Absolutely no doubt about that. Verna, you were never a Christian, nor is any 2x2. It's simply not a Christian sect. It's a hybrid between Christianity and Judaism, as is common with many of the fundamentalist exclusivist sects. The fact is, you knew next to nothing about Christianity, and neither do most 2x2s.
The entire purpose of this thread which I created, before it was hijacked by a collection of clowns, is to show how divergent 2x2ism is from actual Christian orthodoxy. To revolt against 2x2ism, is not to revolt against Christianity, but many ignorant people make that false equivalence.
We have thousands of ex-2x2s who are still trapped inside the 2x2 programming, they have only peeled back one layer of the onion.
I never attended clown school, but I suppose some of us have an innate talent for it. Nevertheless, once we reveal our true selves, we should strive to become the best clowns we can be. As for my beliefs, by the age of six, I had already come to the realization that there was no Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, or God. For many years, I wasn't greatly perturbed by believers, but recently, I've come to recognize the potential dangers of living in a world so heavily influenced by them.
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Post by passingby on Oct 27, 2023 14:50:34 GMT -5
I've watched people exit the 2x2s for decades now, and there definitely are some trends about exiting which have become apparent. I'd like to share what I have learned from watching this process, maybe it will help someone.
The most obvious is the Christian versus non-Christian split. Some folks figure out that 2x2ism is a heretical sect and try to find out what actual Christianity is by joining another church. The second group falsely believes that 2x2ism is representative of Christianity, and since 2x2ism is false, then Christianity is false.
Within the folks who move from the 2x2 church to another church, there are four basic layers of the onion they may or may not peel back in their journey. The first layer of the onion is the exclusivity layer. This hurdle of accepting that there might be other 'saved' people in the world other than 2x2s is generally the first step to considering that another church might be acceptable. Does this mean that the reformed 2x2 is in communion with all other Christians? No, because exclusivity is only one of many heresies that the 2x2 has embedded in her mind. Upon leaving the exclusivity orbit, the reformed 2x2 will likely consider fundamentalist churches a good fit for her. So, various strains of Baptists, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, and many non-denominational places.
If the reformed 2x2 peels back the second layer of her 2x2 indoctrination, she will realize that not only was she in an exclusivitist sect, but also in a Fundamentalist sect. Yes, Fundamentalism is a very extreme variant of Christianity, extreme in that it takes the Old Testament to be literally and historically true. This is not what the vast majority of Christians believe nor is it what any Christian scholars believe (other than quacks). Fundamentalists are a small percentage of Christians, and are almost exclusivity concentrated in the USA and a few other English-speaking countries, though recent years have been making headway among other uneducated peoples in developing countries. This is sad because Fundamentalism is generally also what the ex-2x2er who becomes an atheist is actually opposed to, but doesn't know it. By removing the Fundamentalist layer of the onion, the reformed 2x2 will explore such churches as Methodist, Congregationalist, United Church of Canada, Presbyterians, Dutch Reformed, other Calvinist churches, and some strains of Baptists. This will put the reformed 2x2 in communion with about 25% of the world's Christians
The third layer of 2x2 indoctrination is a much bigger big leap to see and ultimately peel back. This is the layer of anti-liturgicalism, sometimes referred to as Calvinism. The anti-liturgical strain makes reformed 2x2s stay clear of any church which has any adornments inside the church, any vestments on the clergy, any prescribed structure to the worship service. Very few reformed 2x2s can get over this hurdle because of their indoctrination of needing to be in a 'restorative' early New Testament church. For them, restorative means simplicity in all things, Puritanical. If the reformed 2x2 can see the folly of this hurdle, she will explore such liturgical churches such as Anglican, Lutheran, Church of Sweden, Eastern Orthodox, etc. With this move, the reformed 2x2 will now be in communion with about 50% of the world's Christians.
The final layer of the onion of 2x2 indoctrination to peel back is the anti-Catholic layer. Given that 2x2ism was started in Northern Ireland, it should be no surprise that it is a virulently anti-Catholic sect. There are various forms of Catholicism, to which the reformed 2x2 is likely not even aware of, as the reformed 2x2's major mental roadblock is the Roman Catholic (aka Latin) Church - the one headquartered in Vatican City. The reformed 2x2 has a litany of reasons to support her anti-Catholicism, but all of them are strawman arguments based on misunderstanding or fabrications - no different than the other Fundamentalist and Calvinist critiques of the Latin Church. By removing this final layer of indoctrination and recognizing that Roman Catholics are legitimate Christians, the reformed 2x2 will have now included the remaining 50% of Christians into her communion.
It's very important for 2x2s who begin their de-programming process to understand that they are/were in a Restorative Fundamentalist Protestant exclusivist sect. It's layers of heresy, and it needs to be unwound.
Reply, Well, in my case, the above is entirely Bollocks, Deprograming is a process of recognizing that Christianity is a man made construct. Some the above steps may be part of the journey, but you left out the last and most important step
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