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Post by snow on Oct 1, 2023 15:26:21 GMT -5
No one knows why anything exists. Adding a God into the equation just begs the question, how did God exist? And, which God was it since their have been thousands of ideas about Gods. God coming from nothing or existing forever is no different than science saying everything came from nothing or existed forever in a never ending cycle. Both can't be proven. We simply do not know. And, it depends on which sacred book you read on how the individual gods created things that form what people believe. But can't you see that there has to be a greater mind behind it all? Everything can't just appear! No, honestly I don't see a greater mind behind it all. If everything can't just appear then a god obviously can't just appear either. Earth itself we know how it was formed and the life on it is only what could be sustained by the environment that earth has to offer. The universe on the other hand is what no one can say why it exists. We understand why what exists in the universe exists, because we can trace it back to the singularity that exploded and started to expand. The Cosmic Microwave Background gives a good look at how matter was formed and continued to expand across what we now see as our universe.
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Post by Admin on Oct 1, 2023 16:19:47 GMT -5
That's not the scientific approach and in fact stifles scientific exploration. It is god of the gaps stuff which soothes minds and beliefs but at its root is plain dishonest and lazy. It's not lazy to believe in God when there is so much evidence everywhere around us. I know he's there! It's not possible to scientifically prove that God doesn't exist. As for Curly's arguments based on science of creation, Jewish scholars who believe in the God of the scriptures (OT that is) point out with way more knowledge of both science and history of the scriptures than any of us here have, that the Genesis account of creation is not a scientific account. Yet it contains truths understood by those at the time (Moses, or likely people/culture way before him). Does that disprove or discredit the nub of the account in Genesis? Not according to them. For people like Curly, they need to grasp that God the creator is a spirit, and the spiritual dimension (or probably, many dimensions) are not able to be quantified or even observed scientifically (it seems) by our earthbound human cleverness and wisdom. But maryhig, you and I have the incontrovertible evidence that God is. We know him, his existence is before us every moment of every day, and he lives in and through us too. Nobody and nothing, no clever human arguments or attempted reasonings, can take that very real reality away. And as Paul points out in Romans 1, God reveals himself graciously to the whole of humanity through the creation: "what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Praise to our God in his wisdom and majesty!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 1, 2023 17:12:33 GMT -5
It's not lazy to believe in God when there is so much evidence everywhere around us. I know he's there! It's not possible to scientifically prove that God doesn't exist. As for Curly's arguments based on science of creation, Jewish scholars who believe in the God of the scriptures (OT that is) point out with way more knowledge of both science and history of the scriptures than any of us here have, that the Genesis account of creation is not a scientific account. Yet it contains truths understood by those at the time (Moses, or likely people/culture way before him). Does that disprove or discredit the nub of the account in Genesis? Not according to them. For people like Curly, they need to grasp that God the creator is a spirit, and the spiritual dimension (or probably, many dimensions) are not able to be quantified or even observed scientifically (it seems) by our earthbound human cleverness and wisdom. But maryhig , you and I have the incontrovertible evidence that God is. We know him, his existence is before us every moment of every day, and he lives in and through us too. Nobody and nothing, no clever human arguments or attempted reasonings, can take that very real reality away. And as Paul points out in Romans 1, God reveals himself graciously to the whole of humanity through the creation: "what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Praise to our God in his wisdom and majesty! Are you referring to this god? www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths_16.htmlor this one? www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths_17.htmlor this one? www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths_14.htmlor this one? www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths_13.htmlor this one? www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths_12.html
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Post by intelchips on Oct 1, 2023 17:35:22 GMT -5
It's not lazy to believe in God when there is so much evidence everywhere around us. I know he's there! It's not possible to scientifically prove that God doesn't exist. As for Curly's arguments based on science of creation, Jewish scholars who believe in the God of the scriptures (OT that is) point out with way more knowledge of both science and history of the scriptures than any of us here have, that the Genesis account of creation is not a scientific account. Yet it contains truths understood by those at the time (Moses, or likely people/culture way before him). Does that disprove or discredit the nub of the account in Genesis? Not according to them. For people like Curly, they need to grasp that God the creator is a spirit, and the spiritual dimension (or probably, many dimensions) are not able to be quantified or even observed scientifically (it seems) by our earthbound human cleverness and wisdom. But maryhig , you and I have the incontrovertible evidence that God is. We know him, his existence is before us every moment of every day, and he lives in and through us too. Nobody and nothing, no clever human arguments or attempted reasonings, can take that very real reality away. And as Paul points out in Romans 1, God reveals himself graciously to the whole of humanity through the creation: "what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Praise to our God in his wisdom and majesty! The argument you presented asserts that it's not possible to scientifically prove that God doesn't exist and relies on several points, including the idea that the Genesis account of creation isn't meant to be a scientific description, that God is a spiritual entity beyond scientific observation, and that personal experiences of God's presence provide incontrovertible evidence of His existence. While these points may be meaningful to those who hold strong religious beliefs, there are counterarguments to consider: Burden of Proof: The burden of proof typically lies with the party making a positive claim. In this case, asserting the existence of God requires evidence to support that claim. While it's true that one cannot definitively disprove the existence of God, the absence of evidence for God's existence weakens the argument for His existence. Without empirical evidence or scientific confirmation, it's challenging to assert that God's existence is certain. Naturalistic Explanations: Many phenomena that were once attributed to divine or supernatural causes have been explained through naturalistic means as our understanding of science has advanced. For example, thunder and lightning were once considered acts of gods, but we now understand them as natural atmospheric processes. As science progresses, it continues to provide naturalistic explanations for previously mysterious occurrences, which can undermine arguments from theistic perspectives. Multiple Interpretations: While some religious scholars may argue that the Genesis account of creation is not meant to be a scientific explanation, others within the same faith may interpret it differently. The diversity of interpretations within religious communities suggests that there isn't a single, universally agreed-upon understanding of religious texts, making it difficult to assert a single "truth." Subjectivity of Personal Experience: Personal experiences of God's presence are deeply meaningful to individuals but are inherently subjective. People from different religious backgrounds and belief systems also report deeply meaningful personal experiences, often contradictory to one another. Subjective experiences, while valid for individuals, are not easily used as objective evidence for the existence of God because they cannot be independently verified. Alternative Explanations: Philosophers and scientists have proposed various naturalistic explanations for the origin of religious beliefs and experiences, such as psychological, evolutionary, and sociocultural factors. These alternative explanations suggest that the human tendency to perceive and experience the divine can be understood without invoking the existence of an actual deity. In conclusion, while the argument you presented is meaningful to those with strong religious convictions, it's important to recognize that it does not provide empirical or scientific evidence for the existence of God. Scientifically, the question of God's existence remains unproven and subject to individual belief systems and interpretations. Science deals with empirical observations and evidence, and as of now, there is no scientific consensus or empirical proof of God's existence.
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Post by chuck on Oct 1, 2023 18:58:34 GMT -5
I highly doubt it was "made", every thing seems to point to earth is just a extraordinary planet that over billions of years has evolved into what we see today, there is nothing to suggest a "maker" was needed unless you have structured your world view as needing a "maker" then you have no option but to insert a "maker" because you have left yourself no other possibility........ So does that mean that you don't believe in God? I dont like the tone of that question. Which God?. If you are talking about the God the Hebrew scriptures refer too I don't think that is up for me to say but rather for other's to decide wether I believe in the L O R D the Hebrew G O D, or in todays language do I act out the gracious compassionate character...... But I think the God you are referring to is the God of the religion Christianity, well I think that God is a Idol so I hope I dont believe in that God but I'm sure some days I act as if I do......
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Post by chuck on Oct 1, 2023 19:00:17 GMT -5
The first verse should read...In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium. V2. And there was a sudden and violent expansion which can still be heard 13.8 billion years later via the CMB. V3 Everything in every direction was very murky for a few hundred thousand years. Etc etc. The bible version is not based on truth but is based on the vain imaginations of ignorant people. So what created that explosion? This is exactly what I mean when you leave no other options in your world view...you have no other option but to always start your questions with your conclusions that there must be a maker or creator ect.....
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Post by intelchips on Oct 1, 2023 19:12:23 GMT -5
Let me know when your bible study reaches the point where they consider the following.: Did Plato draw inspiration from Moses or the Bible authors, or did the Bible incorporate Plato's ideas into its narratives? Does it really matter which one came first and influenced the other? Would it personally bother anyone if Plato indeed borrowed from Moses or the Bible? Some might argue that there is compelling evidence to suggest that the Bible might have drawn from Greek authors like Plato, rather than the commonly accepted idea that it was Plato who drew from Moses. One might wonder why this debate is relevant. Even if historical accuracy is not everyone's concern, it's worth noting that in the context of the rise of Jewish and Christian ideas in the Greek and Roman world, there was a significant competition of ideas, particularly regarding philosophical and historical lineage. To put it simply, if it were discovered that figures like Moses borrowed from Greek thought for their concepts of the one God and the creation of the world (assuming Moses wrote these texts, as figures like Josephus believed), it would imply that the Jewish and, by extension, Christian traditions owed a debt to pagan philosophy for their foundational ideas. This revelation would complicate matters because Greek ideas not only predate the biblical narratives, which was a significant factor, but it would also suggest that Moses or the Bible authors had to draw from Greek sources. To be blunt, it would imply that the Bible drew from Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Canaanite, and other stories that preceded it in the development of its own narratives. I'm quite happy with what you have stated. However your statement regarding "owed a debt to pagan philosphy" could be examined further. All religion is pagan. The definition of pagan is just a bit too cute and does not stand up to scrutiny. It does help the believers that the definition was written by a christian. I'm getting feeble minded curly as I forgot to add: Russell Gmirkin's book, "Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible," is a work of biblical scholarship that presents a controversial hypothesis about the origins of the Hebrew Bible. Gmirkin's central argument is that much of the Hebrew Bible, particularly the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible), was heavily influenced by Greek writings, particularly the works of Plato and other classical Greek philosophers. Here are some points to consider regarding the book: 1. Controversial Thesis: Gmirkin's thesis challenges traditional views of the origins of the Hebrew Bible. While there is consensus among scholars that the Bible was influenced by surrounding cultures, the extent and nature of this influence is a matter of ongoing debate. Gmirkin's claim that the Hebrew Bible was directly shaped by Greek philosophical thought is a departure from mainstream scholarship. 2. Methodology: The book relies heavily on comparative analysis of texts from different time periods and cultures. Gmirkin draws parallels between specific passages in the Hebrew Bible and passages from Greek texts, arguing that the similarities are too significant to be coincidental. Critics of the book have questioned the methodology and the validity of some of these parallels. 3. Reception and Response: "Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible" has generated significant interest and debate within the academic community. Scholars from various disciplines have engaged with Gmirkin's arguments, both supporting and critiquing his thesis. This kind of scholarly engagement is essential for advancing our understanding of ancient texts. 4. Impact: While Gmirkin's book has not led to a widespread consensus on its thesis, it has contributed to ongoing discussions about the influence of Greek thought on ancient Jewish literature and the development of biblical texts. It serves as a reminder of the complexity of the cultural and intellectual milieu in which ancient texts, including the Hebrew Bible, emerged. 5. Alternative Explanations: Critics argue that there are alternative explanations for the similarities between biblical and Greek texts, such as shared cultural ideas or broader patterns of human thought. They emphasize that influence does not necessarily imply direct borrowing and that the Hebrew Bible has its own distinct theological and cultural context. In summary, Russell Gmirkin's book "Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible" presents a provocative thesis that challenges traditional understandings of the origins of the Hebrew Bible. While it has sparked debate and discussion among scholars, it has not led to a consensus, and alternative explanations continue to be explored. It is a valuable contribution to the ongoing exploration of the development of ancient texts and their cultural and intellectual influences.
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Post by Dan on Oct 2, 2023 0:10:08 GMT -5
"In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium".. Science says that from nothing, nothing comes. So your back to square one, where did hydrogen and helium come from? What was the source of this anomaly?
No reputable scientist has ever said that there was nothing in the beginning. This is a statement by the religious seeking to discredit science. What scientists have said is that they do not know anything about what occurred prior to the inflationary event. They do know what was set in motion during that event and what chemicals were contained in it. You are perfectly capable of studying this but you seem to avoid doing so. Possibly because it will shake your faith to its core when you realize that there is no eternity. I hope you have a good day Dan and don't need any medication to keep you going that science has provided.
Every physical thing science studies had a cause, it all emanated from something. That's where science ends and God begins. God is the uncaused cause of everything. God is spirit and that's another plane of existence, its from that dimension that God brought the physical universe into existence. It did not create itself, something could not magically emanate from nothing, it had to have originated from a spiritual realm. God is Spirit (John 4:24), and that Spirit had no beginning or end, it had no cause, it is that it is. Its beyond our comprehension because science can't study what's not observable or seen, but creation itself is evidence of intelligent design. Its takes more faith to believe that all creation magically fell together by accident than to accept that an omniscient power was behind everything made. Everything has a purpose, the natural world is evidence of that, and things that serve a purpose didn't randomly self-create and fall into place. "The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" (Romans 1:20).
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 2, 2023 0:33:30 GMT -5
No reputable scientist has ever said that there was nothing in the beginning. This is a statement by the religious seeking to discredit science. What scientists have said is that they do not know anything about what occurred prior to the inflationary event. They do know what was set in motion during that event and what chemicals were contained in it. You are perfectly capable of studying this but you seem to avoid doing so. Possibly because it will shake your faith to its core when you realize that there is no eternity. I hope you have a good day Dan and don't need any medication to keep you going that science has provided.
Every physical thing science studies had a cause, it all emanated from something. That's where science ends and God begins. God is the uncaused cause of everything. God is spirit and that's another plane of existence, its from that dimension that God brought the physical universe into existence. It did not create itself, something could not magically emanate from nothing, it had to have originated from a spiritual realm. God is Spirit (John 4:24), and that Spirit had no beginning or end, it had no cause, it is that it is. Its beyond our comprehension because science can't study what's not observable or seen, but creation itself is evidence of intelligent design. Its takes more faith to believe that all creation magically fell together by accident than to accept that an omniscient power was behind everything made. Everything has a purpose, the natural world is evidence of that, and things that serve a purpose didn't randomly self-create and fall into place. "The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" (Romans 1:20).
Memes are cheap. Their use shows how little effort you are putting into your education.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 2, 2023 1:19:55 GMT -5
It's not lazy to believe in God when there is so much evidence everywhere around us. I know he's there! It's not possible to scientifically prove that God doesn't exist. As for Curly's arguments based on science of creation, Jewish scholars who believe in the God of the scriptures (OT that is) point out with way more knowledge of both science and history of the scriptures than any of us here have, that the Genesis account of creation is not a scientific account. Yet it contains truths understood by those at the time (Moses, or likely people/culture way before him). Does that disprove or discredit the nub of the account in Genesis? Not according to them. For people like Curly, they need to grasp that God the creator is a spirit, and the spiritual dimension (or probably, many dimensions) are not able to be quantified or even observed scientifically (it seems) by our earthbound human cleverness and wisdom. But maryhig, you and I have the incontrovertible evidence that God is. We know him, his existence is before us every moment of every day, and he lives in and through us too. Nobody and nothing, no clever human arguments or attempted reasonings, can take that very real reality away. And as Paul points out in Romans 1, God reveals himself graciously to the whole of humanity through the creation: "what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Praise to our God in his wisdom and majesty! What a great post! That's exactly how I see it, and I don't see genesis as a scientific account either but a natural and a spiritual one, the men who wrote the scriptures were inspired by God not science. They speak in a spiritual tongue, they tell you the stories of the past, but with a spiritual meaning, for instance, my uncle was like a Moses to us in our time, he bought us out of Egypt though the wilderness to the promise land through Christ by the power of God. I wonder if anyone here can understand me when I say this? We can see in the Bible that there is a natural and a spiritual, there is a natural Egypt and a spiritual Egypt. Those in the spiritual Egypt are those who's hearts are loving the world, the wealth the pride the building up of tombs etc. Loving dead objects with no life in them. Putting this world and it's false Gods before the living God. John speaks a bit about spiritual Egypt in revelation when he says this Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Here he didn't mean literal Egypt or Sodom because Jesus wasn't crucified there. He's speaking about the people with the same hearts as the Egyptians and sodomites who were wrong before God. I see the Bible so differently, we can't understand it with our own eyes, we can study and study but only God can show us the deeper meanings. I know the earth isn't only 6000 years old, it doesn't say that in the Bible. It's millions of years old, but it's the first time the earth was brought into the true creation through the light of God and I'm not talking about the natural world. Light can be natural and spiritual, water can be natural and spiritual, the earth can be natural and spiritual. When Jesus says he's a door, he's not a wooden object with a handle, he's an opening, a way into God. When he speaks about the cross it's not the wooden cross he was crucified on, it's the suffering he went through daily as he bore witness to the truth and brought God to us. Bringing us out of darkness into the light of God. And that's not natural light or darkness those are just a picture, natural things that the men of God used to explain a spiritual meaning. Bringing us out of the darkness of this world which separates us from the living God, keeping us in darkness away from him, as we fall daily for the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life, and bringing us into his glorious light and reconnecting our hearts and our being with him again. Admin, I know God is there, I have no doubt whatsoever, and I want everyone to know him. I just hope that they all do. I know this way isn't easy, a way that the men of God set up when they first started the 2x2s trying to bring the way of Jesus back to its original way. It's a hard way but it's the best way. And I don't mean what the church is like now, because I don't know it. But what they originally set out to do was good, to truly follow Jesus in the way that Jesus taught. And this way is the way that goes back 2000 years that many have followed, and all those who follow it are the true church of the living God, circumcised of the heart and living by his will. Bringing the love of God and the life of Christ to all in a new and living way to follow, as Jesus did all those years ago. And all these people are the true Jews as Jesus was, and they belong to God. Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 2, 2023 1:30:58 GMT -5
So does that mean that you don't believe in God? I dont like the tone of that question. Which God?. If you are talking about the God the Hebrew scriptures refer too I don't think that is up for me to say but rather for other's to decide wether I believe in the L O R D the Hebrew G O D, or in todays language do I act out the gracious compassionate character...... But I think the God you are referring to is the God of the religion Christianity, well I think that God is a Idol so I hope I dont believe in that God but I'm sure some days I act as if I do...... No I don't believe in the God of Christianity, for a start I don't believe that Jesus is God. Most Christians do. I'm talking about the father who is God of everything and the God of Jesus. He's my God. I'm just trying to understand how you believe?
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Post by maryhig on Oct 2, 2023 1:33:39 GMT -5
So what created that explosion? This is exactly what I mean when you leave no other options in your world view...you have no other option but to always start your questions with your conclusions that there must be a maker or creator ect..... Well there must be! We can't come from nothing. That's why I ask if you believe in God. I'm just trying to understand how you see it. If you believe in God, the God of the old testament, then don't you believe that he created everything?
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Post by intelchips on Oct 2, 2023 15:36:41 GMT -5
This is exactly what I mean when you leave no other options in your world view...you have no other option but to always start your questions with your conclusions that there must be a maker or creator ect..... Well there must be! We can't come from nothing. That's why I ask if you believe in God. I'm just trying to understand how you see it. If you believe in God, the God of the old testament, then don't you believe that he created everything? just curious, why if we didn't come from a god does that mean the only other explanation means we came from nothing?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 2, 2023 15:59:56 GMT -5
Well there must be! We can't come from nothing. That's why I ask if you believe in God. I'm just trying to understand how you see it. If you believe in God, the God of the old testament, then don't you believe that he created everything? just curious, why if we didn't come from a god does that mean the only other explanation means we came from nothing? I have been puzzled for a long time regarding the use of this word. The singularity contained hydrogen and helium. It also contained everything that exists today. here's some information from CERN that says it better than I can. Did you know that the matter in your body is billions of years old? According to most astrophysicists, all the matter found in the universe today -- including the matter in people, plants, animals, the earth, stars, and galaxies -- was created at the very first moment of time, thought to be about 13 billion years ago. The universe began, scientists believe, with every speck of its energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our vast universe. Astrophysicists dubbed this titanic explosion the Big Bang. The Big Bang was like no explosion you might witness on earth today. For instance, a hydrogen bomb explosion, whose center registers approximately 100 million degrees Celsius, moves through the air at about 300 meters per second. In contrast, cosmologists believe the Big Bang flung energy in all directions at the speed of light (300,000,000 meters per second, a million times faster than the H-bomb) and estimate that the temperature of the entire universe was 1000 trillion degrees Celsius at just a tiny fraction of a second after the explosion. Even the cores of the hottest stars in today's universe are much cooler than that. There's another important quality of the Big Bang that makes it unique. While an explosion of a man-made bomb expands through air, the Big Bang did not expand through anything. That's because there was no space to expand through at the beginning of time. Rather, physicists believe the Big Bang created and stretched space itself, expanding the universe. History of the Universe Click photo to view expanded. History of the Universe. Credit: CERN A Cooling, Expanding Universe For a brief moment after the Big Bang, the immense heat created conditions unlike any conditions astrophysicists see in the universe today. While planets and stars today are composed of atoms of elements like hydrogen and silicon, scientists believe the universe back then was too hot for anything other than the most fundamental particles -- such as quarks and photons. But as the universe quickly expanded, the energy of the Big Bang became more and more "diluted" in space, causing the universe to cool. Popping open a beer bottle results in a roughly similar cooling, expanding effect: gas, once confined in the bottle, spreads into the air, and the temperature of the beer drops. Rapid cooling allowed for matter as we know it to form in the universe, although physicists are still trying to figure out exactly how this happened. About one ten-thousandth of a second after the Big Bang, protons and neutrons formed, and within a few minutes these particles stuck together to form atomic nuclei, mostly hydrogen and helium. Hundreds of thousands of years later, electrons stuck to the nuclei to make complete atoms. About a billion years after the Big Bang, gravity caused these atoms to gather in huge clouds of gas, forming collections of stars known as galaxies. Gravity is the force that pulls any objects with mass towards one another -- the same force, for example, that causes a ball thrown in the air to fall to the earth. Where do planets like earth come from? Over billions of years, stars "cook" hydrogen and helium atoms in their hot cores to make heavier elements like carbon and oxygen. Large stars explode over time, blasting these elements into space. This matter then condenses into the stars, planets, and satellites that make up solar systems like our own. Stars and Galaxies As the early universe cooled, the matter produced in the Big Bang gathered into stars and galaxies. Credit: Space Telescope Science Institute How do we know the Big Bang happened? Astrophysicists have uncovered a great deal of compelling evidence over the past hundred years to support the Big Bang theory. Among this evidence is the observation that the universe is expanding. By looking at light emitted by distant galaxies, scientists have found that these galaxies are rapidly moving away from our galaxy, the Milky Way. An explosion like the Big Bang, which sent matter flying outward from a point, explains this observation. Another critical discovery was the observation of low levels of microwaves throughout space. Astronomers believe these microwaves, whose temperature is about -270 degrees Celsius, are the remnants of the extremely high-temperature radiation produced by the Big Bang. Interestingly, astronomers can get an idea of how hot the universe used to be by looking at very distant clouds of gas through high-power telescopes. Because light from these clouds can take billions of years to reach our telescopes, we see such bodies as they appeared eons ago. Lo and behold, these ancient clouds of gas seem to be hotter than younger clouds. Scientists have also been able to uphold the Big Bang theory by measuring the relative amounts of different elements in the universe. They've found that the universe contains about 74 percent hydrogen and 26 percent helium by mass, the two lightest elements. All the other heavier elements -- including elements common on earth, such as carbon and oxygen -- make up just a tiny trace of all matter. So how does this prove anything about the Big Bang? Scientists have shown, using theoretical calculations, that these abundances could only have been made in a universe that began in a very hot, dense state, and then quickly cooled and expanded. This is exactly the kind of universe that the Big Bang theory predicts. tv static Did you know that the static on your television is caused by radiation left over from the Big Bang? CERN and the Big Bang In the first few minutes after the Big Bang, the universe was far hotter -- billions of billions of billions of degrees hotter -- than anywhere in the universe today. This heat gave particles of matter in the early universe an extraordinary amount of energy, causing them to behave in a much different way from particles in the universe today. For example, particles moved much faster back then and collided into one another with much greater energy. If these conditions do not exist anymore, how do scientists study the behavior of matter in the early universe? One of the most powerful tools for such analysis is the particle accelerator. This device allows physicists to recreate conditions just after the Big Bang by making a beam of fast-moving particles and bringing them together in very high-energy collisions. Researchers at CERN are using an accelerator called the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) to accelerate subatomic particles called protons to close to the speed of light. This is how fast scientists believed these particles moved in the instants after the Big Bang. By looking at the behavior of these protons, CERN physicists hope to better understand how the Big Bang created the universe. Dr. Alvaro De Rujula How do experiments at CERN improve our understanding of the early universe? Click to hear Dr. Alvaro De Rujula explain. You will need the RealPlayer in order to view this video. What is the fate of the universe? The Big Bang theory raises some important questions about the fundamental nature of the universe: Will the expansion of the universe, set in action by the Big Bang, continue forever? Or will gravity stop the expansion and eventually cause all the matter in the universe to contract in a Big Crunch? Scientists don't yet know the answers to these questions for certain. But particle physics experiments like the accelerator studies at CERN may offer some clues down the road. By probing into what matter is made of and how it behaves, such experiments can help us explore what the matter in our universe--the planets, stars, and galaxies--might be doing billions of years from now.
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Post by chuck on Oct 2, 2023 17:13:19 GMT -5
Every physical thing science studies had a cause, it all emanated from something. That's where science ends and God begins. God is the uncaused cause of everything. God is spirit and that's another plane of existence, its from that dimension that God brought the physical universe into existence. It did not create itself, something could not magically emanate from nothing, it had to have originated from a spiritual realm. God is Spirit (John 4:24), and that Spirit had no beginning or end, it had no cause, it is that it is. Its beyond our comprehension because science can't study what's not observable or seen, but creation itself is evidence of intelligent design. Its takes more faith to believe that all creation magically fell together by accident than to accept that an omniscient power was behind everything made. Everything has a purpose, the natural world is evidence of that, and things that serve a purpose didn't randomly self-create and fall into place. "The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" (Romans 1:20).
Memes are cheap. Their use shows how little effort you are putting into your education. It is wilful ignorance.
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Post by chuck on Oct 2, 2023 17:29:07 GMT -5
This is exactly what I mean when you leave no other options in your world view...you have no other option but to always start your questions with your conclusions that there must be a maker or creator ect..... Well there must be! We can't come from nothing. That's why I ask if you believe in God. I'm just trying to understand how you see it. If you believe in God, the God of the old testament, then don't you believe that he created everything? I don't know if we did or did not come from nothing, I don't think the general consensus is we came from "nothing", that is a strawman. No I basically said I wouldn't be so bold as to boast I believe in the gracious compassionate character( Hebrew God) as I am honest enough to know some day's I am not gracious and compassionate........to be blunt people running around announcing they believe God or they are believers dont have a clue what they are actually saying.... Again you come start with a creator.....creation in Hebrew literature is alsohighly symbolic, to take the word create or creation and assert that it is purely a literal physical creation of the world is highly ignorant imo. These people did not have the benefit of the scientific knowledge you and I edulge in today, it is foolish to actively disregard what science has to say while you are literally trusting is science in every other aspect of your life...... When people take the words on the pages of scripture as literal physical truth regardless of new found knowledge it has become idolatry.....
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Post by chuck on Oct 2, 2023 17:51:01 GMT -5
I dont like the tone of that question. Which God?. If you are talking about the God the Hebrew scriptures refer too I don't think that is up for me to say but rather for other's to decide wether I believe in the L O R D the Hebrew G O D, or in todays language do I act out the gracious compassionate character...... But I think the God you are referring to is the God of the religion Christianity, well I think that God is a Idol so I hope I dont believe in that God but I'm sure some days I act as if I do...... No I don't believe in the God of Christianity, for a start I don't believe that Jesus is God. Most Christians do. I'm talking about the father who is God of everything and the God of Jesus. He's my God. I'm just trying to understand how you believe? Under the banner of Christianity are people who do and do not think Jesus is God. The God figure is still basically described the same as a creator of the physical world and the recognition of the culture scripture began in is still largely absent. Believe in regards to scripture is a doing word. Changing that word into a western concept that it is something you choose to affirm in your mind before you choose to act in a particular way means the scripture turns into something it isn't actually saying.......
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 2, 2023 18:46:38 GMT -5
It's not possible to scientifically prove that God doesn't exist. As for Curly's arguments based on science of creation, Jewish scholars who believe in the God of the scriptures (OT that is) point out with way more knowledge of both science and history of the scriptures than any of us here have, that the Genesis account of creation is not a scientific account. Yet it contains truths understood by those at the time (Moses, or likely people/culture way before him). Does that disprove or discredit the nub of the account in Genesis? Not according to them. For people like Curly, they need to grasp that God the creator is a spirit, and the spiritual dimension (or probably, many dimensions) are not able to be quantified or even observed scientifically (it seems) by our earthbound human cleverness and wisdom. But maryhig , you and I have the incontrovertible evidence that God is. We know him, his existence is before us every moment of every day, and he lives in and through us too. Nobody and nothing, no clever human arguments or attempted reasonings, can take that very real reality away. And as Paul points out in Romans 1, God reveals himself graciously to the whole of humanity through the creation: "what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Praise to our God in his wisdom and majesty! What a great post! That's exactly how I see it, and I don't see genesis as a scientific account either but a natural and a spiritual one, the men who wrote the scriptures were inspired by God not science. They speak in a spiritual tongue, they tell you the stories of the past, but with a spiritual meaning, for instance, my uncle was like a Moses to us in our time, he bought us out of Egypt though the wilderness to the promise land through Christ by the power of God. I wonder if anyone here can understand me when I say this? We can see in the Bible that there is a natural and a spiritual, there is a natural Egypt and a spiritual Egypt. Those in the spiritual Egypt are those who's hearts are loving the world, the wealth the pride the building up of tombs etc. Loving dead objects with no life in them. Putting this world and it's false Gods before the living God. John speaks a bit about spiritual Egypt in revelation when he says this Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Here he didn't mean literal Egypt or Sodom because Jesus wasn't crucified there. He's speaking about the people with the same hearts as the Egyptians and sodomites who were wrong before God. I see the Bible so differently, we can't understand it with our own eyes, we can study and study but only God can show us the deeper meanings. I know the earth isn't only 6000 years old, it doesn't say that in the Bible. It's millions of years old, but it's the first time the earth was brought into the true creation through the light of God and I'm not talking about the natural world. Light can be natural and spiritual, water can be natural and spiritual, the earth can be natural and spiritual. When Jesus says he's a door, he's not a wooden object with a handle, he's an opening, a way into God. When he speaks about the cross it's not the wooden cross he was crucified on, it's the suffering he went through daily as he bore witness to the truth and brought God to us. Bringing us out of darkness into the light of God. And that's not natural light or darkness those are just a picture, natural things that the men of God used to explain a spiritual meaning. Bringing us out of the darkness of this world which separates us from the living God, keeping us in darkness away from him, as we fall daily for the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life, and bringing us into his glorious light and reconnecting our hearts and our being with him again. Admin, I know God is there, I have no doubt whatsoever, and I want everyone to know him. I just hope that they all do. I know this way isn't easy, a way that the men of God set up when they first started the 2x2s trying to bring the way of Jesus back to its original way. It's a hard way but it's the best way. And I don't mean what the church is like now, because I don't know it. But what they originally set out to do was good, to truly follow Jesus in the way that Jesus taught. And this way is the way that goes back 2000 years that many have followed, and all those who follow it are the true church of the living God, circumcised of the heart and living by his will. Bringing the love of God and the life of Christ to all in a new and living way to follow, as Jesus did all those years ago. And all these people are the true Jews as Jesus was, and they belong to God. Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. I have read your post several times. Do you only believe in the god that is in the bible and the creation story told within or do you also believe other cultures creation stories and their gods?
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Post by chuck on Oct 2, 2023 20:12:58 GMT -5
The Genesis creation account is ancient wisdom mixed with the superstition of the day. Science points out what is likely superstitious but the wisdom still remains... Here is one piece of wisdom it is passing on to you.......without form and void... youtu.be/ilnfh9cOG7w?si=nQ4XoT676ZXWF_ANOne thing this means to me today is be a creator for various reasons......, it does not mean to me ignore what science is indicating and be dogmatic about particular religious world views contrary to what we have learnt......
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Post by maryhig on Oct 3, 2023 2:31:28 GMT -5
Well there must be! We can't come from nothing. That's why I ask if you believe in God. I'm just trying to understand how you see it. If you believe in God, the God of the old testament, then don't you believe that he created everything? just curious, why if we didn't come from a god does that mean the only other explanation means we came from nothing? Because I have somewhere I know we came from, from God. If not God, then where?
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Post by maryhig on Oct 3, 2023 2:44:34 GMT -5
Well there must be! We can't come from nothing. That's why I ask if you believe in God. I'm just trying to understand how you see it. If you believe in God, the God of the old testament, then don't you believe that he created everything? I don't know if we did or did not come from nothing, I don't think the general consensus is we came from "nothing", that is a strawman. No I basically said I wouldn't be so bold as to boast I believe in the gracious compassionate character( Hebrew God) as I am honest enough to know some day's I am not gracious and compassionate........to be blunt people running around announcing they believe God or they are believers dont have a clue what they are actually saying.... Again you come start with a creator.....creation in Hebrew literature is alsohighly symbolic, to take the word create or creation and assert that it is purely a literal physical creation of the world is highly ignorant imo. These people did not have the benefit of the scientific knowledge you and I edulge in today, it is foolish to actively disregard what science has to say while you are literally trusting is science in every other aspect of your life...... When people take the words on the pages of scripture as literal physical truth regardless of new found knowledge it has become idolatry..... I didn't say I don't believe science, I do, but I believe it proves God. As for the word God, the Hebrews used it too, he is their father. And they may not have had science, but they didn't need it, as they had the wisdom of God for their understanding. You say it's idolitary to take the words of scripture as literal. Don't you believe that Moses and others in the old testament were real then? You refer to the Hebrew Bible yourself, why would you do that if you believe that none of it physically happened? By the way, I've also said there is a deeper meaning in the scriptures, I don't see it all as literal. Also, you don't like to use the word God, what about a higher mind behind everything then? Do you believe that? And I actually do know God exists, because I've had undeniable proof in my life. I could never ever say there's no God, because I've seen and heard him in the Spirit, in nature, and through things that have happened in my life.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 3, 2023 2:56:50 GMT -5
No I don't believe in the God of Christianity, for a start I don't believe that Jesus is God. Most Christians do. I'm talking about the father who is God of everything and the God of Jesus. He's my God. I'm just trying to understand how you believe? Under the banner of Christianity are people who do and do not think Jesus is God. The God figure is still basically described the same as a creator of the physical world and the recognition of the culture scripture began in is still largely absent. Believe in regards to scripture is a doing word. Changing that word into a western concept that it is something you choose to affirm in your mind before you choose to act in a particular way means the scripture turns into something it isn't actually saying....... But I'm not a Christian as seen in mainstream Christianity, neither was Jesus. For a start Christianity as we know it started a long time after Jesus died with the Romans. Jesus was a Jew, and a true Jew is one circumcised of the heart. All those who truly follow Jesus and deny themselves and live according to his teachings are circumcised of the heart, are true Jews as he was. I believe exactly as you do regarding the word believe, I often say this too. If you truly believe then you'll do. If you believe that a car will go, then you'll get in and drive it you don't just leave it there. So if you say you believe in God, then you'll live by his will and obey his word. I'm not one of those people who say they believe, get blessed and that's it they are saved. That's a false teaching, true believing is doing, we are to be doers of the word and not hearers only. And we are to follow Jesus in word and deed and not change his word to suit ourselves or the denomination we follow. There is only one way, and that's the exact way that Jesus taught, because he brought us the way given to him directly from the father, and he lived it out perfectly as an example for us to follow.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 3, 2023 3:00:05 GMT -5
What a great post! That's exactly how I see it, and I don't see genesis as a scientific account either but a natural and a spiritual one, the men who wrote the scriptures were inspired by God not science. They speak in a spiritual tongue, they tell you the stories of the past, but with a spiritual meaning, for instance, my uncle was like a Moses to us in our time, he bought us out of Egypt though the wilderness to the promise land through Christ by the power of God. I wonder if anyone here can understand me when I say this? We can see in the Bible that there is a natural and a spiritual, there is a natural Egypt and a spiritual Egypt. Those in the spiritual Egypt are those who's hearts are loving the world, the wealth the pride the building up of tombs etc. Loving dead objects with no life in them. Putting this world and it's false Gods before the living God. John speaks a bit about spiritual Egypt in revelation when he says this Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Here he didn't mean literal Egypt or Sodom because Jesus wasn't crucified there. He's speaking about the people with the same hearts as the Egyptians and sodomites who were wrong before God. I see the Bible so differently, we can't understand it with our own eyes, we can study and study but only God can show us the deeper meanings. I know the earth isn't only 6000 years old, it doesn't say that in the Bible. It's millions of years old, but it's the first time the earth was brought into the true creation through the light of God and I'm not talking about the natural world. Light can be natural and spiritual, water can be natural and spiritual, the earth can be natural and spiritual. When Jesus says he's a door, he's not a wooden object with a handle, he's an opening, a way into God. When he speaks about the cross it's not the wooden cross he was crucified on, it's the suffering he went through daily as he bore witness to the truth and brought God to us. Bringing us out of darkness into the light of God. And that's not natural light or darkness those are just a picture, natural things that the men of God used to explain a spiritual meaning. Bringing us out of the darkness of this world which separates us from the living God, keeping us in darkness away from him, as we fall daily for the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life, and bringing us into his glorious light and reconnecting our hearts and our being with him again. Admin, I know God is there, I have no doubt whatsoever, and I want everyone to know him. I just hope that they all do. I know this way isn't easy, a way that the men of God set up when they first started the 2x2s trying to bring the way of Jesus back to its original way. It's a hard way but it's the best way. And I don't mean what the church is like now, because I don't know it. But what they originally set out to do was good, to truly follow Jesus in the way that Jesus taught. And this way is the way that goes back 2000 years that many have followed, and all those who follow it are the true church of the living God, circumcised of the heart and living by his will. Bringing the love of God and the life of Christ to all in a new and living way to follow, as Jesus did all those years ago. And all these people are the true Jews as Jesus was, and they belong to God. Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. I have read your post several times. Do you only believe in the god that is in the bible and the creation story told within or do you also believe other cultures creation stories and their gods? Curly I believe in the God of creation. The one who created everything around us, the father who created all of us. By the way, I see the creation story differently to others, I don't see it all as literal.
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Post by intelchips on Oct 3, 2023 7:18:17 GMT -5
just curious, why if we didn't come from a god does that mean the only other explanation means we came from nothing? Because I have somewhere I know we came from, from God. If not God, then where? The question of our origin, whether it be from God or some other source, has been a fundamental and deeply philosophical inquiry throughout human history. It's a question that has led to various religious, scientific, and philosophical perspectives, each offering its own interpretation of our existence. While the belief in a divine origin, such as from God, is deeply held by many, it's important to acknowledge that there are alternative viewpoints and explanations: Scientific Perspective: From a scientific standpoint, the theory of evolution is a widely accepted explanation for the origin of life on Earth. According to this theory, life emerged through natural processes over billions of years, beginning with simple single-celled organisms and gradually evolving into the diverse array of species we see today. This perspective doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of God but provides a naturalistic explanation for the diversity of life. Atheism and Agnosticism: Some individuals identify as atheists or agnostics and do not ascribe our origin to a divine being. They may assert that the question of our origin remains unanswered or unknowable and focus on living meaningful lives in the present without relying on religious explanations. Deistic Perspective: Deism is a belief system that posits the existence of a Creator or God but suggests that this deity does not intervene in the affairs of the world. Deists believe that God set the universe in motion but does not engage in ongoing acts of creation or intervention. In this view, the origin of life may be attributed to a divine Creator who set the natural laws in motion. Multicultural Perspectives: Different cultures and religions around the world have their own creation myths and beliefs about the origin of humanity. These narratives often involve gods, goddesses, or supernatural beings shaping the world and human existence according to their respective traditions. Ultimately, the question of our origin is a deeply personal one, and the answer may vary from person to person based on their beliefs, upbringing, culture, and personal experiences. It's a topic that has sparked countless philosophical debates and discussions, and there is no universally accepted answer. For those who believe that we came from God, this belief often provides a sense of purpose, meaning, and moral guidance in their lives. Conversely, those who hold alternative beliefs may find purpose and meaning in different aspects of existence, such as the pursuit of knowledge, relationships, or contributing to the well-being of society. In essence, the question of our origin remains a profound and complex matter, and the answer one arrives at is often deeply intertwined with their worldview, values, and personal convictions.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 3, 2023 14:09:20 GMT -5
I have read your post several times. Do you only believe in the god that is in the bible and the creation story told within or do you also believe other cultures creation stories and their gods? Curly I believe in the God of creation. The one who created everything around us, the father who created all of us. By the way, I see the creation story differently to others, I don't see it all as literal. There are numerous myths about gods, including yours, and how they created the heavans and the earth. Are they equitable in your view and each should be treated with respect or do you exclusively believe that the god mentioned in your bible and the one you refer to above is the one that did the creation job.
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Post by snow on Oct 3, 2023 15:10:17 GMT -5
If there is a 'higher mind' as maryhig is suggesting, does it have to be a personal god? It would make more sense from what science shows us that if something created everything that it put everything into a singularity and then let nature take it's course. The universe that we see is based on the building blocks that were there in the Big Bang. We and all living beings in this universe are just a product of the 'ingredients' available and we are the result of evolution over a very long time. And we will continue to evolve into something we probably wouldn't recognize far into the future if we lived that long to see it. If we have a nuclear war and there are survivors they will have changed DNA and over time will not be the same as we see now likely. We are the outcome of the products available. We would be very different if the building blocks for life were different.
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Post by Dan on Oct 3, 2023 16:18:40 GMT -5
Memes are cheap. Their use shows how little effort you are putting into your education. It is wilful ignorance.
Memes are better than cheap, they're free, and sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.
But even so, accepting such hypothesis doesn't answer the ultimate question. All the matter in the universe didn't erupt from nothing, there had to have been an existing cause.
Something existed and it didn't come from nothing, wilful ignorance is denying that fact.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 3, 2023 19:39:24 GMT -5
Memes are better than cheap, they're free, and sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.
But even so, accepting such hypothesis doesn't answer the ultimate question. All the matter in the universe didn't erupt from nothing, there had to have been an existing cause.
Something existed and it didn't come from nothing, wilful ignorance is denying that fact.
If you do not accept the big bang then how do you explain the cosmic microwave background?
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