|
Post by snow on Sept 8, 2023 13:32:29 GMT -5
The bible is completely written by men. And, we know just how reliable the HS is when interpreted and acted on by men. Why is it that men back then could be completely inspired by god and therefore the bible is completely true, but that inspiration in this day and age seems to be flawed. Yet it's claimed to come from men who are 'inspired' by God in what they say and do. Imo it's not something that changed. It's something that never existed. A man inspired by god that wrote only what god wanted with no interpretation on the man's part. Not feasible now and not then. The Holy Spirit is unerring, but our understanding and interpretation is not, which is why we are inspired to study and learn scripture. The writers were completely inspired back then for the same reason most of them were given the authority to perform miracles (healing), "All Scripture is God-breathed", and that which is God inspired is 100% true.
We are not 'inspired' today in the same sense that the prophets and apostles were. They were provided infallible gifts for a specific purpose. We are the beneficiaries of the Truth which they were entrusted and empowered to preserve. We are not inherently gifted by the H.S. to perform any perfect task, today the purpose is to seal, guide, and comfort.
I'm sorry Dan, but if you believe that then there is nothing you won't believe. Why you think people today aren't given the same abilities when God doesn't change I don't know. But it's a convenient way to justify just how impossible it seems in this day and age for the HS to guide people in even the most obvious moral ways. It's also a convenient way of justifying why no one can heal anymore. I do recognize that in order for you to continue being a Christian believer these justifications are necessary. But it makes no sense to me at all that it's all totaly god inspired or 'breathed' 2000+ years ago and then boom, it was no longer possible.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Sept 8, 2023 17:11:05 GMT -5
Did they find Jesus in a House or Manger? Did they flee to Egypt or not? Was Jarius's daughter dead or dying when he went to Jesus? Remember it is plainly written......
"Did they find Jesus in a House or Manger?"
The shepherds saw Jesus in the manger at Bethlehem , the Magi (wise men) saw him later at the house in Nazareth.
"Did they flee to Egypt or not?"
Yes they fled to Egypt.. There's no contradiction if that's what your insinuating? The only conundrum is a misunderstood timeline, its really quite simple when you understand that Matthew and Luke aren't describing the same events. In Luke 2:4, they go to Bethlehem, then the shepherds (not the Magi) come to see baby Jesus (vs 16). We then read that Jesus is circumcised after 8 days in Bethlehem, and after Mary's purification (40 days), they leave for the Temple in Jerusalem (Luke 2:21-22). Next, they leave Jerusalem and return home to Nazareth (Luke 2:39).
In Matthew 2:11, the story picks up where Luke left off, in Nazareth after they had returned from Jerusalem. The wise men (not the shepherds) went to see baby Jesus at the house in Nazareth, not the stable in Bethlehem. Then an angel warns Joseph to flee to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14). They return after Herod dies.
People often get confused because in Xmas exhibits they always picture the wise men bringing gold, frankincense, and myrrh to the manger in Bethlehem. But in reality, they weren't even there.
"Was Jarius's daughter dead or dying when he went to Jesus?"
Its self-explanatory; "And there came a man named Jairus, who was a ruler of the synagogue. And falling at Jesus' feet, he implored him to come to his house, for he had an only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she was dying" (Luke 8:41-42). "While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master" (Luke 8:49-50). So the girl was in the process of dying when Jarius went for Jesus, but obviously died soon after he reached him..
Yes, it is plainly written...
In the Birth story Luke has people visiting a Manger in Bethlehem then going to Jerusalem then Nazareth. Matthew has people visiting a house in Bethlehem then running away to Egypt then going to Nazareth. Nazareth is not mentioned until the end of Matthew 2 and not as you suggest in one picking up were the other left off. These are two different brith stories. Christianity needs to construct something to make them seem not contradictory all because they start with their conclusion that the Bible is literally true therefore cannot have contradictions. It seems Matthews accound has Jarius's daughter dead not dying...... Matthew 9:18 [18]While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Sept 8, 2023 17:47:28 GMT -5
"Your contributions regarding tackling CSA etc., are second to none and I hope are met with much approval. On the opposite flank I see a wayward reliance on what those who rejected Christ's teachings out of hand and slew him, their apparent thoughts, ideas and traditions. I have but one question for you. Who is your teacher when it comes to matters of Christ and following him? Clearly it isn't Wally!" mountainThe Romans slew Jesus, and the religious exclusives wanted it, this however does not mean all who were commited to Judaism rejected Jesus's teachings which it seems you are implying?, guilty by association?. I see no difference today as back then, the religious exclusives happy to see or to have the Christ character killed for their selfishness..... I will happily use multiple resources, from Bart Erhman to Tim Mackie and anyone in between, lots of knowledge available if you are willing to holster what you think you know long enough to grasp other ideas......but in the story Jesus teachings are summed up very well by the writer of Matthews gospel... Matthew 22:35-40 [35]Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38]This is the first and great commandment. [39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Why would anyone need a teacher to understand this? the entire summation of the intent of OT Scripture to Jesus was Love your neighbour as you would yourself, and do it with everything that you have..... Now clearly that isn't Wally's teachings because anyone not like him is headed to the hot place......who is my neighbour he asks...... my question to you is if people don't see it like you are they headed to the hot place as well?, and please dont give a cop-out answer......
I am not the judge of another's salvation. Jesus warned 'judge not that ye be judged' I believe he was addressing the Pharisees propensity to judge others before God, making themselves out to be righteous and others unrighteous. They were getting in the way between God and man. I have no intention of doing that. I have enough to worry about with myself. Matthew 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Interesting you use a number of sources. I use a variety of sources myself but my key source is the teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Without that I cannot 'see' the Kingdom of God and without that I cannot 'enter' the Kingdom of God. All other sources of guidance and information are vain without relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring correct understanding. This is a bit by bit process. Therefore I believe that a person cannot understand the things of God without the agency of the Holy Spirit. Therefore I have to ask you: Do you believe your understanding of ancient Hebraic culture and thinking, so necessary for your understanding of Jesus's teachings, is of the Holy Spirit, or is it of man? Obviously if it is not of the Holy Spirit is is a digression and/or distraction. The words Holy and Spirit in scripture are ancient Hebrew concepts therefore by your own admission you have started without knowing what the concepts were of those words......what could possibly go wrong really................ Oh but you do Judge....it is fundemental to the religion "Christianity" to believe xyz or you burn in hell, by default you have told yourself people who dont are not going to be saved....you dont like the confrontation of it but you are nicer than wally about it.....
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 8, 2023 17:52:45 GMT -5
The writers were completely inspired back then for the same reason most of them were given the authority to perform miracles (healing), "All Scripture is God-breathed", and that which is God inspired is 100% true. That's the simplistic approach. Was the Septuagint (in use since the 4th century BC) God inspired and 100% true?
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Sept 8, 2023 21:14:59 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit is unerring, but our understanding and interpretation is not, which is why we are inspired to study and learn scripture. The writers were completely inspired back then for the same reason most of them were given the authority to perform miracles (healing), "All Scripture is God-breathed", and that which is God inspired is 100% true.
We are not 'inspired' today in the same sense that the prophets and apostles were. They were provided infallible gifts for a specific purpose. We are the beneficiaries of the Truth which they were entrusted and empowered to preserve. We are not inherently gifted by the H.S. to perform any perfect task, today the purpose is to seal, guide, and comfort.
I'm sorry Dan, but if you believe that then there is nothing you won't believe. Why you think people today aren't given the same abilities when God doesn't change I don't know. But it's a convenient way to justify just how impossible it seems in this day and age for the HS to guide people in even the most obvious moral ways. It's also a convenient way of justifying why no one can heal anymore. I do recognize that in order for you to continue being a Christian believer these justifications are necessary. But it makes no sense to me at all that it's all totally god inspired or 'breathed' 2000+ years ago and then boom, it was no longer possible.
God doesn't change, but when a job is completed, no repeat is necessary. Prophets prophesied about everything that would happen all the way to the end of time, so what's left to prophesy? That gift served a purpose and ended, we don't need new prophets today. The apostles were empowered by gifts of miraculous healing and such for the purpose of introducing the gospel to the world. That gift also served its purpose and ended. The Word was completed, preserved, and spread with the aid of prophets and apostles. Its always been accepted by faith though, as Jesus told nearly everyone he healed, 'Its our faith that makes us whole'.
The Holy Spirit guides those who want to be guided, He inspired all those entrusted to write the bible. So believers were not abandoned, the inspired word is here and nothing has changed. God previously intervened throughout history to preserve His people until the time of Messiah, but once his work was done "It is finished", the disciples used the same gifts that Jesus illustrated to cement the Word for all time.
"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Corinthians 12:12)
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" Ephesians 2:20)
"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20)
"God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will" (Hebrews 2:4). These extraordinary gifts were signs given of God to confirm the word of the apostles in their preaching. They were only intended to function at the hand of the Apostles in confirmation of Christ.
When the apostles passed away, these signs of their office also ceased. This is both scriptural and an historical fact. It is the testimony of the early church that the extraordinary gifts of tongues, miracles, healings etc., all passed away with the death of the apostles.
"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases" (Luke 9:1)
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Sept 8, 2023 21:51:08 GMT -5
The writers were completely inspired back then for the same reason most of them were given the authority to perform miracles (healing), "All Scripture is God-breathed", and that which is God inspired is 100% true. That's the simplistic approach. Was the Septuagint (in use since the 4th century BC) God inspired and 100% true?
What can I say, I'm a simplistic man.. Yes, I believe the Septuagint was inspired and accurate. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures that was widely used in the first century too. According to some sources, Jesus and the apostles used the Septuagint and quoted from it. One example of this is when Jesus quoted Psalm 8:2 in Matthew 21:16, which matches the Septuagint text but not the Hebrew text.
Masoretic Text (Hebrew): "From the mouths of infants and nursing babies You have established strength Because of Your enemies, To do away with the enemy and the revengeful" (Psalm 8:2).
Septuagint (= LXX, Greek): "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger" (Pslam 8:2). "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise"(Matthew 21:16 KJV).
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Sept 8, 2023 22:26:37 GMT -5
"Did they find Jesus in a House or Manger?"
The shepherds saw Jesus in the manger at Bethlehem , the Magi (wise men) saw him later at the house in Nazareth.
"Did they flee to Egypt or not?"
Yes they fled to Egypt.. There's no contradiction if that's what your insinuating? The only conundrum is a misunderstood timeline, its really quite simple when you understand that Matthew and Luke aren't describing the same events. In Luke 2:4, they go to Bethlehem, then the shepherds (not the Magi) come to see baby Jesus (vs 16). We then read that Jesus is circumcised after 8 days in Bethlehem, and after Mary's purification (40 days), they leave for the Temple in Jerusalem (Luke 2:21-22). Next, they leave Jerusalem and return home to Nazareth (Luke 2:39).
In Matthew 2:11, the story picks up where Luke left off, in Nazareth after they had returned from Jerusalem. The wise men (not the shepherds) went to see baby Jesus at the house in Nazareth, not the stable in Bethlehem. Then an angel warns Joseph to flee to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14). They return after Herod dies.
People often get confused because in Xmas exhibits they always picture the wise men bringing gold, frankincense, and myrrh to the manger in Bethlehem. But in reality, they weren't even there.
"Was Jarius's daughter dead or dying when he went to Jesus?"
Its self-explanatory; "And there came a man named Jairus, who was a ruler of the synagogue. And falling at Jesus' feet, he implored him to come to his house, for he had an only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she was dying" (Luke 8:41-42). "While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master" (Luke 8:49-50). So the girl was in the process of dying when Jarius went for Jesus, but obviously died soon after he reached him..
Yes, it is plainly written...
In the Birth story Luke has people visiting a Manger in Bethlehem then going to Jerusalem then Nazareth. Matthew has people visiting a house in Bethlehem then running away to Egypt then going to Nazareth. Nazareth is not mentioned until the end of Matthew 2 and not as you suggest in one picking up were the other left off. These are two different brith stories. Christianity needs to construct something to make them seem not contradictory all because they start with their conclusion that the Bible is literally true therefore cannot have contradictions. It seems Matthews accound has Jarius's daughter dead not dying...... Matthew 9:18 [18]While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matthew does not specify that the house was in Bethelhem, it just says that the wise men entered the house. I believe it was later, Joseph & Mary went from Bethlehem to Jerusalem, back to Nazareth, and then to Egypt. The wise men caught up to them and visited at their house in Nazareth.. If they had a house in Bethlehem, why would they go to an Inn or a stable? ebible.com/questions/11837-where-and-when-did-the-wise-men-meet-jesus
Luke just covers the story of Jarius's daughter in more detail. She was dying when he left to find Jesus, but both Matthew & Luke say that the Father got word from a ruler who informed him that she had died.. No contradiction whatsoever.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Sept 9, 2023 3:09:10 GMT -5
I am not the judge of another's salvation. Jesus warned 'judge not that ye be judged' I believe he was addressing the Pharisees propensity to judge others before God, making themselves out to be righteous and others unrighteous. They were getting in the way between God and man. I have no intention of doing that. I have enough to worry about with myself. Matthew 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Interesting you use a number of sources. I use a variety of sources myself but my key source is the teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Without that I cannot 'see' the Kingdom of God and without that I cannot 'enter' the Kingdom of God. All other sources of guidance and information are vain without relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring correct understanding. This is a bit by bit process. Therefore I believe that a person cannot understand the things of God without the agency of the Holy Spirit. Therefore I have to ask you: Do you believe your understanding of ancient Hebraic culture and thinking, so necessary for your understanding of Jesus's teachings, is of the Holy Spirit, or is it of man? Obviously if it is not of the Holy Spirit is is a digression and/or distraction. The words Holy and Spirit in scripture are ancient Hebrew concepts therefore by your own admission you have started without knowing what the concepts were of those words......what could possibly go wrong really................ You are attempting to point out a flaw in my understanding. I have no problem with that. It is good to learn. However, please be a good teacher and explain your understanding of what Holy and Spirit mean in ancient Hebrew concepts. This is the first thing you should do when raising an issue like this. In the past you have virtually demanded that people should undergo a degree course in order to understand ancient Hebraic understandings, before they can understand the Bible. If you must prevail with this line of debate, please explain your understanding of matters before you point out the flaws in the understanding of others, rather than direct folks to make their own investigations. At least present the sources. I can guarantee that virtually no one has accepted your challenge to research ancient Hebraic culture and beliefs. Most are content with what they read and understand from the Bible. Show people what you mean and why, from your sources. You're the one making the claims. You present the evidence. Don't expect others to go chasing your case, especially when little or no direction is given.
Oh but you do Judge....it is fundemental to the religion "Christianity" to believe xyz or you burn in hell, by default you have told yourself people who dont are not going to be saved....you dont like the confrontation of it but you are nicer than wally about it..... We all make judgements every day. They are a survival mechanism. Spiritually minded people discern/judge all things.
1 Corinthians 2.15
“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”
What we should not do is place ourselves in the seat of judgement between man and God. God knows things that we don't. We are all dependent upon the mercy of God.
What may be confusing you is the fact the gospel as preached by John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and his Apostles, is founded on two facts;
1) our predicament before God, and 2) Our way out of that predicament.
Every person is lost as a sinner before God and cannot meet with his approval and is facing a lost eternity, unless....they accept the way, truth and life of his only begotten human being Son Jesus.
Presenting that dilema to others is NOT judgement. It is stating a matter of fact as stated in the Bible.
If I do things nicer than Wally, it is because I do not have a hand gun to back up my words!
|
|
|
Post by snow on Sept 9, 2023 13:08:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry Dan, but if you believe that then there is nothing you won't believe. Why you think people today aren't given the same abilities when God doesn't change I don't know. But it's a convenient way to justify just how impossible it seems in this day and age for the HS to guide people in even the most obvious moral ways. It's also a convenient way of justifying why no one can heal anymore. I do recognize that in order for you to continue being a Christian believer these justifications are necessary. But it makes no sense to me at all that it's all totally god inspired or 'breathed' 2000+ years ago and then boom, it was no longer possible. God doesn't change, but when a job is completed, no repeat is necessary. Prophets prophesied about everything that would happen all the way to the end of time, so what's left to prophesy? That gift served a purpose and ended, we don't need new prophets today. The apostles were empowered by gifts of miraculous healing and such for the purpose of introducing the gospel to the world. That gift also served its purpose and ended. The Word was completed, preserved, and spread with the aid of prophets and apostles. Its always been accepted by faith though, as Jesus told nearly everyone he healed, 'Its our faith that makes us whole'.
The Holy Spirit guides those who want to be guided, He inspired all those entrusted to write the bible. So believers were not abandoned, the inspired word is here and nothing has changed. God previously intervened throughout history to preserve His people until the time of Messiah, but once his work was done "It is finished", the disciples used the same gifts that Jesus illustrated to cement the Word for all time.
"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Corinthians 12:12)
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" Ephesians 2:20)
"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20)
"God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will" (Hebrews 2:4). These extraordinary gifts were signs given of God to confirm the word of the apostles in their preaching. They were only intended to function at the hand of the Apostles in confirmation of Christ.
When the apostles passed away, these signs of their office also ceased. This is both scriptural and an historical fact. It is the testimony of the early church that the extraordinary gifts of tongues, miracles, healings etc., all passed away with the death of the apostles.
"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases" (Luke 9:1) The way I see it, the only way the bible can be read as the literal, god breathed, god inspired truth, is by faith. Questioning it and believing anything else is not allowed.
|
|
|
Post by believingjesus on Sept 9, 2023 13:10:36 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit is unerring, but our understanding and interpretation is not, which is why we are inspired to study and learn scripture. The writers were completely inspired back then for the same reason most of them were given the authority to perform miracles (healing), "All Scripture is God-breathed", and that which is God inspired is 100% true.
We are not 'inspired' today in the same sense that the prophets and apostles were. They were provided infallible gifts for a specific purpose. We are the beneficiaries of the Truth which they were entrusted and empowered to preserve. We are not inherently gifted by the H.S. to perform any perfect task, today the purpose is to seal, guide, and comfort.
I'm sorry Dan, but if you believe that then there is nothing you won't believe. Why you think people today aren't given the same abilities when God doesn't change I don't know. But it's a convenient way to justify just how impossible it seems in this day and age for the HS to guide people in even the most obvious moral ways. It's also a convenient way of justifying why no one can heal anymore. I do recognize that in order for you to continue being a Christian believer these justifications are necessary. But it makes no sense to me at all that it's all totaly god inspired or 'breathed' 2000+ years ago and then boom, it was no longer possible. You really hit the nail on the head with this one snow.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 14:53:16 GMT -5
"Did they find Jesus in a House or Manger?"
The shepherds saw Jesus in the manger at Bethlehem , the Magi (wise men) saw him later at the house in Nazareth.
"Did they flee to Egypt or not?"
Yes they fled to Egypt.. There's no contradiction if that's what your insinuating? The only conundrum is a misunderstood timeline, its really quite simple when you understand that Matthew and Luke aren't describing the same events. In Luke 2:4, they go to Bethlehem, then the shepherds (not the Magi) come to see baby Jesus (vs 16). We then read that Jesus is circumcised after 8 days in Bethlehem, and after Mary's purification (40 days), they leave for the Temple in Jerusalem (Luke 2:21-22). Next, they leave Jerusalem and return home to Nazareth (Luke 2:39).
In Matthew 2:11, the story picks up where Luke left off, in Nazareth after they had returned from Jerusalem. The wise men (not the shepherds) went to see baby Jesus at the house in Nazareth, not the stable in Bethlehem. Then an angel warns Joseph to flee to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14). They return after Herod dies.
People often get confused because in Xmas exhibits they always picture the wise men bringing gold, frankincense, and myrrh to the manger in Bethlehem. But in reality, they weren't even there.
"Was Jarius's daughter dead or dying when he went to Jesus?"
Its self-explanatory; "And there came a man named Jairus, who was a ruler of the synagogue. And falling at Jesus' feet, he implored him to come to his house, for he had an only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she was dying" (Luke 8:41-42). "While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master" (Luke 8:49-50). So the girl was in the process of dying when Jarius went for Jesus, but obviously died soon after he reached him..
Yes, it is plainly written...
In the Birth story Luke has people visiting a Manger in Bethlehem then going to Jerusalem then Nazareth. Matthew has people visiting a house in Bethlehem then running away to Egypt then going to Nazareth. Nazareth is not mentioned until the end of Matthew 2 and not as you suggest in one picking up were the other left off. These are two different brith stories. Christianity needs to construct something to make them seem not contradictory all because they start with their conclusion that the Bible is literally true therefore cannot have contradictions. It seems Matthews accound has Jarius's daughter dead not dying...... Matthew 9:18 [18]While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Your critical reading skills are lacking immensely, Luke 2 calls out only shepherds...I can see how you read scripture, leaves something to be desired and explains a lot...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 14:56:50 GMT -5
The writers were completely inspired back then for the same reason most of them were given the authority to perform miracles (healing), "All Scripture is God-breathed", and that which is God inspired is 100% true. That's the simplistic approach. Was the Septuagint (in use since the 4th century BC) God inspired and 100% true? As an elder your unbelief is rather large...maybe you should start carrying around Darwin's book instead...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 14:59:57 GMT -5
The words Holy and Spirit in scripture are ancient Hebrew concepts therefore by your own admission you have started without knowing what the concepts were of those words......what could possibly go wrong really................ You are attempting to point out a flaw in my understanding. I have no problem with that. It is good to learn. However, please be a good teacher and explain your understanding of what Holy and Spirit mean in ancient Hebrew concepts. This is the first thing you should do when raising an issue like this. In the past you have virtually demanded that people should undergo a degree course in order to understand ancient Hebraic understandings, before they can understand the Bible. If you must prevail with this line of debate, please explain your understanding of matters before you point out the flaws in the understanding of others, rather than direct folks to make their own investigations. At least present the sources. I can guarantee that virtually no one has accepted your challenge to research ancient Hebraic culture and beliefs. Most are content with what they read and understand from the Bible. Show people what you mean and why, from your sources. You're the one making the claims. You present the evidence. Don't expect others to go chasing your case, especially when little or no direction is given.
Oh but you do Judge....it is fundemental to the religion "Christianity" to believe xyz or you burn in hell, by default you have told yourself people who dont are not going to be saved....you dont like the confrontation of it but you are nicer than wally about it..... We all make judgements every day. They are a survival mechanism. Spiritually minded people discern/judge all things.
1 Corinthians 2.15
“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”
What we should not do is place ourselves in the seat of judgement between man and God. God knows things that we don't. We are all dependent upon the mercy of God.
What may be confusing you is the fact the gospel as preached by John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and his Apostles, is founded on two facts;
1) our predicament before God, and 2) Our way out of that predicament.
Every person is lost as a sinner before God and cannot meet with his approval and is facing a lost eternity, unless....they accept the way, truth and life of his only begotten human being Son Jesus.
Presenting that dilema to others is NOT judgement. It is stating a matter of fact as stated in the Bible.
If I do things nicer than Wally, it is because I do not have a hand gun to back up my words!
😁😎😮👍👋
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Sept 10, 2023 0:14:34 GMT -5
God doesn't change, but when a job is completed, no repeat is necessary. Prophets prophesied about everything that would happen all the way to the end of time, so what's left to prophesy? That gift served a purpose and ended, we don't need new prophets today. The apostles were empowered by gifts of miraculous healing and such for the purpose of introducing the gospel to the world. That gift also served its purpose and ended. The Word was completed, preserved, and spread with the aid of prophets and apostles. Its always been accepted by faith though, as Jesus told nearly everyone he healed, 'Its our faith that makes us whole'.
The Holy Spirit guides those who want to be guided, He inspired all those entrusted to write the bible. So believers were not abandoned, the inspired word is here and nothing has changed. God previously intervened throughout history to preserve His people until the time of Messiah, but once his work was done "It is finished", the disciples used the same gifts that Jesus illustrated to cement the Word for all time.
"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Corinthians 12:12)
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" Ephesians 2:20)
"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20)
"God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will" (Hebrews 2:4). These extraordinary gifts were signs given of God to confirm the word of the apostles in their preaching. They were only intended to function at the hand of the Apostles in confirmation of Christ.
When the apostles passed away, these signs of their office also ceased. This is both scriptural and an historical fact. It is the testimony of the early church that the extraordinary gifts of tongues, miracles, healings etc., all passed away with the death of the apostles.
"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases" (Luke 9:1) The way I see it, the only way the bible can be read as the literal, god breathed, god inspired truth, is by faith. Questioning it and believing anything else is not allowed.
True, its accepted by faith.. Nothing wrong with questioning what one does not understand. After all, the disciples flooded Jesus with a ton of questions. No ones faith is perfect, doubts creep in, but getting answers helps to establish one's faith in the truth. A person looking for reasons to believe will believe and a person looking for reasons not to believe will not believe. It all boils down to what a person chooses to trust doesn't it? The bible gives people answers, hope, & purpose. Life is a dead end street without it, and that's not a prospect I care to entertain.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Sept 10, 2023 5:25:08 GMT -5
In the Birth story Luke has people visiting a Manger in Bethlehem then going to Jerusalem then Nazareth. Matthew has people visiting a house in Bethlehem then running away to Egypt then going to Nazareth. Nazareth is not mentioned until the end of Matthew 2 and not as you suggest in one picking up were the other left off. These are two different brith stories. Christianity needs to construct something to make them seem not contradictory all because they start with their conclusion that the Bible is literally true therefore cannot have contradictions. It seems Matthews accound has Jarius's daughter dead not dying...... Matthew 9:18 [18]While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Your critical reading skills are lacking immensely, Luke 2 calls out only shepherds...I can see how you read scripture, leaves something to be desired and explains a lot... True to form, see it like wally or burn.........
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Sept 10, 2023 6:03:28 GMT -5
In the Birth story Luke has people visiting a Manger in Bethlehem then going to Jerusalem then Nazareth. Matthew has people visiting a house in Bethlehem then running away to Egypt then going to Nazareth. Nazareth is not mentioned until the end of Matthew 2 and not as you suggest in one picking up were the other left off. These are two different brith stories. Christianity needs to construct something to make them seem not contradictory all because they start with their conclusion that the Bible is literally true therefore cannot have contradictions. It seems Matthews accound has Jarius's daughter dead not dying...... Matthew 9:18 [18]While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Your critical reading skills are lacking immensely, Luke 2 calls out only shepherds...I can see how you read scripture, leaves something to be desired and explains a lot... I can see that so whats your point?.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Sept 10, 2023 14:43:40 GMT -5
The way I see it, the only way the bible can be read as the literal, god breathed, god inspired truth, is by faith. Questioning it and believing anything else is not allowed. True, its accepted by faith.. Nothing wrong with questioning what one does not understand. After all, the disciples flooded Jesus with a ton of questions. No ones faith is perfect, doubts creep in, but getting answers helps to establish one's faith in the truth. A person looking for reasons to believe will believe and a person looking for reasons not to believe will not believe. It all boils down to what a person chooses to trust doesn't it? The bible gives people answers, hope, & purpose. Life is a dead end street without it, and that's not a prospect I care to entertain.
Belief that there is life after death is just that, belief. There is no one that knows what happens when we die. I do understand why people want to believe in some kind of utopia after they die, especially if they found this life to be horribly challenging. But heaven would have to be so many different things for it to be a utopia for everyone. Maybe it's just that? Point is no one knows anything about it. I have no problem with others beliefs, what gets them through life. Just so long as it doesn't endanger others because they believe things that are harmful. An example of belief being harmful is something I read in a post recently. Someone had posted that letting your children near pedophiles was immoral and her response was that judging someone was a sin and therefore it was wrong to sin to provide safety for your children, shows your lack of faith. Basically she's right I suppose if you believe that judging other's is a greater sin. But if that woman has any children, there is no way that she will protect them from abusers because she believes so wholeheartedly that she shouldn't judge. That in itself is child abuse and immoral imo, if she leaves her kids with workers that have allegations against them.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Sept 10, 2023 16:44:00 GMT -5
Your critical reading skills are lacking immensely, Luke 2 calls out only shepherds...I can see how you read scripture, leaves something to be desired and explains a lot... True to form, see it like wally or burn......... It's one of the things he's been told many times himself.
|
|
|
Post by passingby on Sept 10, 2023 17:56:59 GMT -5
Sitting in a gospel meeting recently, I was listening to the workers speak. Not to the message, but how they projected the message. Aware that most, if not all of workers are basically untrained in adult life, uneducated in scripture and monitored and controlled by the overseers, it occurred to me that they are not "preaching" the gospel, they are merely amateur motivational speakers. They get a thought in their head and look up scripture relating to that thought, or vice versa, and basically make their own parables and present to those congregated. They talk about others "friends" who are so faithful and those who have been faithful to the end, making it a raw raw cheerleading session. "You can be just like them! Make your choice and join the faithful God chosen few". Though most motivational speakers speak to their audience using positive reinforcement, they use both positive and negative to brainwash their audience of what they consider to be right (the 2x2 way) and wrong (the way of the world). The definition of a motivational speaker: A motivational speaker is a business professional who delivers speeches designed to inspire and motivate people in the audience. Also known as "inspirational speakers," these individuals are gifted in the art of persuasion. They positively present their ideas and encourage others to follow their way of thinking.I listen to a fair amount of Christian radio and I'd say your description above fits them to a tee. Although the part about "... business professional ..." would apply more to them than to the workers
|
|
|
Post by passingby on Sept 10, 2023 18:23:06 GMT -5
Listening to the messages from the platform at GV I honestly don't see how their message could be motivating. It was not encouraging and it was really depressing. I never realized just how much they focus on death and losing out when I went all the time. Years later listening to it again, I was really amazed at how depressing the message was. Lol I don't know, but many (including me) in spite of it all, found an inspiring message. They (the workers) often say, 'I'm a poor inadequate messenger, God has to do the speaking to your heart.' He who hath an ear let him hear, etc. Some hear inspiration some don't. God separating the sheep from the goats I guess is what they'd say. I think it was in this thread that I read Dan write that the OT is pretty depressing, (very true) but never-the-less you find preachers everywhere (and 2x2's too) finding or creating inspiring messages out of it anyway. Although I don't believe in the biblical (or any actual) God, inspired people are in general, my kind of people. Maybe because in spite of what can be depressing reality, I'm (luckily I think) a positive person. I enjoy, look for, and naturally gravitate to such people, and happily so.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2023 23:06:48 GMT -5
Your critical reading skills are lacking immensely, Luke 2 calls out only shepherds...I can see how you read scripture, leaves something to be desired and explains a lot... True to form, see it like wally or burn......... I didn't mention burning. Guilty conscious?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2023 23:08:05 GMT -5
Your critical reading skills are lacking immensely, Luke 2 calls out only shepherds...I can see how you read scripture, leaves something to be desired and explains a lot... I can see that so whats your point?. Just noting how inept you are with your Hebraic mindset and understanding scripture...
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Sept 11, 2023 2:11:28 GMT -5
True, its accepted by faith.. Nothing wrong with questioning what one does not understand. After all, the disciples flooded Jesus with a ton of questions. No ones faith is perfect, doubts creep in, but getting answers helps to establish one's faith in the truth. A person looking for reasons to believe will believe and a person looking for reasons not to believe will not believe. It all boils down to what a person chooses to trust doesn't it? The bible gives people answers, hope, & purpose. Life is a dead end street without it, and that's not a prospect I care to entertain.
Belief that there is life after death is just that, belief. There is no one that knows what happens when we die. I do understand why people want to believe in some kind of utopia after they die, especially if they found this life to be horribly challenging. But heaven would have to be so many different things for it to be a utopia for everyone. Maybe it's just that? Point is no one knows anything about it. I have no problem with others beliefs, what gets them through life. Just so long as it doesn't endanger others because they believe things that are harmful. An example of belief being harmful is something I read in a post recently. Someone had posted that letting your children near pedophiles was immoral and her response was that judging someone was a sin and therefore it was wrong to sin to provide safety for your children, shows your lack of faith. Basically she's right I suppose if you believe that judging other's is a greater sin. But if that woman has any children, there is no way that she will protect them from abusers because she believes so wholeheartedly that she shouldn't judge. That in itself is child abuse and immoral imo, if she leaves her kids with workers that have allegations against them. I totally agree, anyone who believes that not letting your children around pedophiles shows a lack of faith or is judgemental, has got to be a totally brainwashed religious fanatic. "If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch" (Matthew 15:14).
|
|
|
Post by snow on Sept 11, 2023 14:15:44 GMT -5
Listening to the messages from the platform at GV I honestly don't see how their message could be motivating. It was not encouraging and it was really depressing. I never realized just how much they focus on death and losing out when I went all the time. Years later listening to it again, I was really amazed at how depressing the message was. Lol I don't know, but many (including me) in spite of it all, found an inspiring message. They (the workers) often say, 'I'm a poor inadequate messenger, God has to do the speaking to your heart.' He who hath an ear let him hear, etc. Some hear inspiration some don't. God separating the sheep from the goats I guess is what they'd say. I think it was in this thread that I read Dan write that the OT is pretty depressing, (very true) but never-the-less you find preachers everywhere (and 2x2's too) finding or creating inspiring messages out of it anyway. Although I don't believe in the biblical (or any actual) God, inspired people are in general, my kind of people. Maybe because in spite of what can be depressing reality, I'm (luckily I think) a positive person. I enjoy, look for, and naturally gravitate to such people, and happily so. I'm glad you were inspired at meetings. I haven't been to one since 1973 so when I finally listened to a convention again, it really stood out how many were almost sobbing giving their testimonies or prayers. Even some of the young sister workers looked like they were going to break down and cry at any moment. The number of times I heard people say they were nothing, that they just wanted to do better with a quiver in their voices, really upset me. I now understand why I was so sure I was worth nothing when I was a teen. Until I left home and quit going to meetings I never thought I was worth anything much. I realized that I had worth and was a pretty decent person after about a decade of not going. It's been a journey and I now understand why.
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Sept 11, 2023 16:32:16 GMT -5
Listening to the messages from the platform at GV I honestly don't see how their message could be motivating. It was not encouraging and it was really depressing. I never realized just how much they focus on death and losing out when I went all the time. Years later listening to it again, I was really amazed at how depressing the message was. Lol I don't know, but many (including me) in spite of it all, found an inspiring message. They (the workers) often say, 'I'm a poor inadequate messenger, God has to do the speaking to your heart.' He who hath an ear let him hear, etc. Some hear inspiration some don't. God separating the sheep from the goats I guess is what they'd say. I think it was in this thread that I read Dan write that the OT is pretty depressing, (very true) but never-the-less you find preachers everywhere (and 2x2's too) finding or creating inspiring messages out of it anyway. Although I don't believe in the biblical (or any actual) God, inspired people are in general, my kind of people. Maybe because in spite of what can be depressing reality, I'm (luckily I think) a positive person. I enjoy, look for, and naturally gravitate to such people, and happily so.
People are different and inspired by different things. There aren't many Fire & Brimstone sermons anymore because they don't draw an audience. The crowds prefer Prosperity type sermons, they want to hear about the blessings Christians get, etc.
I personally want the Truth in all of its caveats, not a whitewashed unrealistic version of how wonderful a Christian life is. Because there's nothing easy about it, its a battle from start to finish, and its that down to earth realization that inspires me.
This preacher (Christine Caine) is a bit loud, but the sermon cuts through the fluff and brings the message home;
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Sept 12, 2023 0:34:33 GMT -5
I can see that so whats your point?. Just noting how inept you are with your Hebraic mindset and understanding scripture... Im curious as to why you felt the need to mention shepherds?.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Sept 12, 2023 2:14:33 GMT -5
The words Holy and Spirit in scripture are ancient Hebrew concepts therefore by your own admission you have started without knowing what the concepts were of those words......what could possibly go wrong really................ You are attempting to point out a flaw in my understanding. I have no problem with that. It is good to learn. However, please be a good teacher and explain your understanding of what Holy and Spirit mean in ancient Hebrew concepts. This is the first thing you should do when raising an issue like this. In the past you have virtually demanded that people should undergo a degree course in order to understand ancient Hebraic understandings, before they can understand the Bible. If you must prevail with this line of debate, please explain your understanding of matters before you point out the flaws in the understanding of others, rather than direct folks to make their own investigations. At least present the sources. I can guarantee that virtually no one has accepted your challenge to research ancient Hebraic culture and beliefs. Most are content with what they read and understand from the Bible. Show people what you mean and why, from your sources. You're the one making the claims. You present the evidence. Don't expect others to go chasing your case, especially when little or no direction is given.
Oh but you do Judge....it is fundemental to the religion "Christianity" to believe xyz or you burn in hell, by default you have told yourself people who dont are not going to be saved....you dont like the confrontation of it but you are nicer than wally about it..... We all make judgements every day. They are a survival mechanism. Spiritually minded people discern/judge all things.
1 Corinthians 2.15
“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”
What we should not do is place ourselves in the seat of judgement between man and God. God knows things that we don't. We are all dependent upon the mercy of God.
What may be confusing you is the fact the gospel as preached by John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and his Apostles, is founded on two facts;
1) our predicament before God, and 2) Our way out of that predicament.
Every person is lost as a sinner before God and cannot meet with his approval and is facing a lost eternity, unless....they accept the way, truth and life of his only begotten human being Son Jesus.
Presenting that dilema to others is NOT judgement. It is stating a matter of fact as stated in the Bible.
If I do things nicer than Wally, it is because I do not have a hand gun to back up my words!
Ive mentioned it before..... Holy is something absent bondage or enslavement, Spirit is an influence. This is how it is used in the OT. So the Holy Spirit is a influence absent enslavement.....What you are proposing is the holy spirit requires enslavement to a religion which brings us to judgement.........A self announcing Christian has already predetermined who is and is not saved by the mere fact they have formulated in their own minds what it takes to be saved(believe ect), if they have not it would be the most miserable life ever to not know if you have done enough or believed enough to be saved.....which is another form of enslavement because you never know......... Basically religion is the opposite of the Holy Spirit......, Jesus seemed to be moving in a direction away from religious enslavement not towards.....
|
|
|
Post by passingby on Sept 12, 2023 15:00:20 GMT -5
Lol I don't know, but many (including me) in spite of it all, found an inspiring message. They (the workers) often say, 'I'm a poor inadequate messenger, God has to do the speaking to your heart.' He who hath an ear let him hear, etc. Some hear inspiration some don't. God separating the sheep from the goats I guess is what they'd say. I think it was in this thread that I read Dan write that the OT is pretty depressing, (very true) but never-the-less you find preachers everywhere (and 2x2's too) finding or creating inspiring messages out of it anyway. Although I don't believe in the biblical (or any actual) God, inspired people are in general, my kind of people. Maybe because in spite of what can be depressing reality, I'm (luckily I think) a positive person. I enjoy, look for, and naturally gravitate to such people, and happily so. I'm glad you were inspired at meetings. I haven't been to one since 1973 so when I finally listened to a convention again, it really stood out how many were almost sobbing giving their testimonies or prayers. Even some of the young sister workers looked like they were going to break down and cry at any moment. The number of times I heard people say they were nothing, that they just wanted to do better with a quiver in their voices, really upset me. I now understand why I was so sure I was worth nothing when I was a teen. Until I left home and quit going to meetings I never thought I was worth anything much. I realized that I had worth and was a pretty decent person after about a decade of not going. It's been a journey and I now understand why. Thanks snow, I haven't been away for that long , but it's been a while. Maybe because I grew up with the people who's testimonies I was imersed in, I understood them as the people and the lives from whence they came. There were a few disconnects, person/testimony, but not many. Who knows what they thought of mine. I think as I got older, with more life and experience I understood better, understanding more "between the lines" so to speak. None of us were perfect, we all had our troubles, all of us were on a journey. Anyway, things might sound different today? I don't know. I'd actually like to go to convention, but I don't want to make anyone suspicious or uncomfortable that I might be one of those ex's who's attitudes you can read about for days here. Actually snow, feeling like you weren't worth much is not that uncommon. I am continually surprised by how many high achieving public people say they grew up feeling the same way, including me (well not public or high achieving, but eventually okay). Takes us all a long time to sort things out I think. No sense blaming others because we're human.
|
|